The Ashes

[C C Csiders]

Any guesses on the leading run scorers and wicket takers for each country for the upcoming series.

My guesses:

England leading runscorer - Andrew Strauss (417 runs)
England leading wicket taker - Andrew Flintoff (24 wickets)

Australia leading runscorer - Damien Martyn (589 runs)
Australia leading wicket taker - Glenn McGrath (29 wickets)

I was initially confident that we could win this, but I think realisation is beginning to settle in. I think it might be in 2 years time over in Australia where we may stand a gretaer chance of getting the little urn back. By then there will be no McGrath and Warne for Australia, and the over 30s batsman will all be 2 years older as well.

[Hong Kong Blue]

I'd go along with both of those calls for the Australians, although it'll be interesting to see how many times Harmy gets Martyn.

I'm less convinced about the English predictions.

I fear Strauss will struggle with "second season syndrome". He's made a brilliant start to his international career, but that second season is always harder. I'm actually struggling for a dead-cert to score runs for England. Ominously question marks hang over the entire batting line-up. The likes of Strauss, Pietersen and Bell may prove brilliant (and Vaughan, come to that), but I feel post Butcher, Hussain and Thorpe England lack a banker, someone who can be relied on to bring some stability to that order, will score a couple of timely 50s, a match-winning century and average 40+ for the series.

Flintoff will be a key bowler for England, but I doubt he will be top wicket taker, mainly because he will be bowled more sparingly than Harmison.

[Matt the Shrimp]

England leading runscorer - Kevin Pietersen (509 runs)
England leading wicket taker - Steve Harmison (25 wickets)

Australia leading runscorer - Adam Gilchrist (564 runs)
Australia leading wicket taker - Glenn McGrath (29 wickets)

Matt asks "who is England's banker?" and I am convinced the answer is Kevin Pietersen. I genuinely think he is going to repay the selectors' faith in him. He doesn't really understand the concepts of fear or pressure... his was the ultimate baptism of fire in South Africa, being booed by the crowds and having them turn their backs on him... so what does he do? Scores a ton.

The fact that McGrath has singled him out, saying "we've worked him out, we've got some little tricks for him" shows that secretly the Ockers fear him a little bit.

A lot of the Ockers' success against us has been the fear factor, and KP simply doesn't have that. Sure, he's vulnerable on the leg side. But McGrath is no leg-side bowler... so he's relying on (really) Gillespie and Shane to get his wicket. And who does KP get to practise against in the nets at Hampshire on a daily basis...?!

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I am a KP nut... he's the real deal, and will be our best batsman; followed closely by Michael Vaughan.

Alas, however, the Baggy Greens will prevail... I'm hovering between 2-0 and 3-1, depending on the weather. We've allowed them to bowl themselves into form, with all of Lee, McGrath and Gillespie now picking up wickets. Hoggard has been anonymous most of the summer, Jones is OK but not in their class, which leaves an awful lot on the shoulders of Harmy & Freddy. They're both crackers - and would probably supplant Lee & Gillespie in the current Aussie side - but are probably not as reliably lethal as the arch-whinger, McGrath.

Unfortunately, the Aussies look a more solid all-round unit than we do at the moment... their "average" form is better than ours. We're going to have to be brilliant all summer - something which we haven't achieved yet.

The other blooper is starting the series at Lord's - a place where, in the last 100 years, we've beaten the Aussies precisely...


...once, in 1934.

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I don't know who's idea it was to start the series at Lord's, but it was a daft one. Hey ho.

Matt

[The General]

I'll go for Hoggard then with 23 wickets. I feel it will be fairly equal with Freddy and Harmy also taking about 20 wickets each.
As for Australia, its got to be Lee with about 30 and McGrath not too far behind.

Batting wise, i'm with Matt. Not too sure who will top score for us, if Strauss starts well i can see him getting 500 and perhaps top scoring but then if someone likes Vaughan gets a big 150/200 then he could top it. As for Australia, not too sure to be honest, could be Gillchrist but perhaps Martyn but im pretty sure its all going to be pretty even ...

[Hong Kong Blue]

I'm not sure about KP being vulnerable on the leg-side but the crowd sitting on the leg-side are when Pietersen is batting - take a look at his wagon-wheels!

The main thing we haven't seen yet is whether he can be bored out. McGrath dropping on that metronimic line and and length will be a real test. If he can disrupt that line and length without surrendering his wicket its game on. However he'll find it difficult to work balls from outside off to mid-wicket.

Warne is another question which remains unanswered. I'm fairly confident as Pietersen showed he can play spin on the A tour of India, but whether he can play leg-spin and Shane Warne's mind games might be another matter.

Finally, can he cope with the expectation? The pressure he was under in South Africa will be a different type of pressure to that as the saviour of English cricket. He struggled at the start of the season under the weight of expectation, which allowed Bell to jump the queue against Bangladesh

[canveyshrimper]

I am not going to make predictions about number of runs scored or wickets taken. I think it likely that Langer will be the Aussies top scorer & McGrath the main man with the wickets. Lee has not played a test in 18 months, and although he is lightning fast he is not the most accurate. Both Gillespie & Ksprowicz are past their best & Warne well who can tell with him his personal life in turmoil. However he loves the battle and will be a threat as ever.

For England, i think our attack is right, and i think Simon Jones just may surprise a few people. Harmison the main man with the ball & Vaughan with the bat.

It is essential that England hit the ground not running, but sprinting and they must win the first 6 sessions at Lords to really hit the Aussies.

I genuinely think this Aussie team is at the top of the hill, and just ready to go over it, whether it be this summer or in the winter, their selectors will soon have to make wholesale changes. Lee & Clarke are their only players under 30. Wheras England have only Giles over 30 & Vaughan who is 30. I find ironic that the Aussies always lecture England about selecting the old guard, and not replacing them as they get near the retirement stage. Even the reserves of the Aussies are 30 or thereabouts - Hussey, Hodge, Love, Symonds etc, and apart from Tait no quick bowler of note in the locker.

I think England are the coming team and under the tutealage of Fletcher and Vaughan will become the number one test team in the next 18 months.

However i think this series may just be slightly too early for the England side.

So Australia 2 England 1

[Spaceman Spiff]

England leading runscorer - Andrew Strauss (458 runs)
England leading wicket taker - Steve Harmison (32 wickets)

Australia leading runscorer - Adam Gilchrist (502 runs)
Australia leading wicket taker - Glenn McGrath (29 wickets)

This is what I'm going for...

Other top performers will be:

Kevin Pietersen - but he wont set the world alight in terms of total runs over the tournament. I think he'll succeed and succeed big on some days, but then fall cheaply on others.

Andrew Flintoff - Freddy will go from strength to strength. If England win the Ashes I can see him being Man of the Series.

Matthew Hoggard - a big series expected this time from Hoggy.

Justin Langer - top batsman who will run Gilchrist close for the Aussies' top scorer.

Shane Warne - will take 20 wickets for the Ockers


Overall, I can see this being a tight series. Whoever wins will do so by a point...

[chadded]

Anyone else rather it went to the final test, even more than an England victory in the 3rd test, just for excitement value?

[W4 Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (chadded @ July 20 2005,23:15)]Anyone else rather it went to the final test, even more than an England victory in the 3rd test, just for excitement value?
Well I don't think there's any danger of us wrapping it up by the 3rd Test anyway.

If we go to The Oval for the 5th Test either one up or with the series level then fantastic - all the more so seeing as I'm going on the second day!

[chadded]

Quote[/b] (W4 Shrimper @ July 21 2005,08:13)]
Quote[/b] (chadded @ July 20 2005,23:15)]Anyone else rather it went to the final test, even more than an England victory in the 3rd test, just for excitement value?
Well I don't think there's any danger of us wrapping it up by the 3rd Test anyway.

If we go to The Oval for the 5th Test either one up or with the series level then fantastic - all the more so seeing as I'm going on the second day!
Meh, was just being optomistic http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

In truth, I think it's too close to call.

What I do know is the coverage starts in 40 mins, and i'm to get my supplies for the day, before sitting in front of the TV for the rest of the day.

The joys of Annual Leave. http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W4 Shrimper]

Arse. Aussies win the toss and elect to bat http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

I actually think it's not a bad toss to lose today, Ponting had to bat once winning, as Vaughn would have done, but Lord's at 10.30 is not the best place to be batting and looking at the cloud cover coming over, I would imagine Hoggard and Harmy fancying it a bit.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (BILLERICAY BLUE @ July 21 2005,10:18)]I actually think it's not a bad toss to lose today, Ponting had to bat once winning, as Vaughn would have done, but Lord's at 10.30 is not the best place to be batting and looking at the cloud cover coming over, I would imagine Hoggard and Harmy fancying it a bit.
Agreed... it's cold, breezy, and the clouds are rolling in. Time for Harmy to do some damage.

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[blues_r_best]

Hoggard did the damage, bowled Hayden.

[The Flying Scotsman]

The physio is still trying to stop the bleeding on Ponting's face
Ponting taking the treatment quite bravely here - it looks like he
might even be getting a stitch or two
Now there's a plaster come on, just between his right ear and eye

Match State: Drinks

10.4 Harmison to Ponting, no run, and it is Ponting's turn now! Short
ball, Ponting goes for the pull and cops a nasty blow on the grill
of the helmet
Another disruption in play here as the helmet seems to have jammed
on Ponting's face and caused a bit of bleeding
It looks a bit gory there as the blood pours down Ponting's cheek,
but it's not as bad as it looks
The physio has come onto the field and is attending to Ponting

[blues_r_best]

Harmison bowled to Ponting and caught by Strauss.

[blues_r_best]

66-3 Freddy bowled to Langer and caught by Harmison

[blues_r_best]

66-4 Simon Jones to Martyn, thick edge and out.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Woohoo!!

Good God, what the heck is happening out there! We're actually not getting battered in a Lord's Ashes Test (yet!!)!

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[Spaceman Spiff]

66-4??

What's wrong with me? NURSE!!!

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[blues_r_best]

83-4 after 21 overs

[blues_r_best]

87-5 Clarke out lbw b. Jones

[blues_r_best]

Lunch 97-5.

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Quote[/b] (BILLERICAY BLUE @ July 21 2005,10:18)]I actually think it's not a bad toss to lose today, Ponting had to bat once winning, as Vaughn would have done, but Lord's at 10.30 is not the best place to be batting and looking at the cloud cover coming over, I would imagine Hoggard and Harmy fancying it a bit.
I refer the Honourable Gentlemen to my quote above http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Now where did I put that trumpet........

[blues_r_best]

Gilchrist out for 26, Freedy bowling and Jones catch.

[blues_r_best]

Warne bowled by Harmison

[blues_r_best]

178-7

[The General]

Katich out. Harmisson. 178-8

[blues_r_best]

178-8 Kaitch out, Harmison bowling, Jones catch

[blues_r_best]

Peiterson dropped, and he should have held on to that.

[The General]

Another one bites the dust.

[blues_r_best]

Lee out, b. Harmison and c. Jones.

[southend4ever]

this is absolutely immense....

[southend4ever]

McGrath has just been pinned

[blues_r_best]

All out 190

[southend4ever]

harmo 5 for all out 190

[blues_r_best]

Marcus out, McGrath's 500 test wicket.

And Strauss out.

[The General]

It begs the questio ~ Whats the point on playing on a wicket where it looks impossible to score any runs ... !?

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[canveyshrimper]

I would have thought it unlikely that there will be a bad test pitch at Lords. It is more likely good bowling or bad batting on both sides.

[Hong Kong Blue]

Is it the pitch to blame? At Lords wickets tend to fall because of overhead conditions, but on a clear day the pitch can resemble a road (on a slope).

[blues_r_best]

Vaughan out, bowled by McGrath.

[Hong Kong Blue]

Bloody hell. Bell out now.

McGrath 7.3-3-7-4

We really need to get GBH to break his figures, not to dismiss him.

[TrueBlue]

Flints gone!

[Museshrimper]

92-7 at close, b******s

[BoyWonder2]

Again, England's good work with the ball has been let down by the batting. Very frustating to watch, is it fantastic bowling (Mainly by McGrath) or dreadful batting?

[* ORM *]

Quote[/b] (Spaceman Spiff @ July 21 2005,11:53)]Woohoo!!

Good God, what the heck is happening out there! We're actually not getting battered in a Lord's Ashes Test (yet!!)!

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You and your big mouth.

At one stage this afternoon I was frantically scouring the web for our lowest ever Ashes score (45). In my lifetime we've had a 77 and a 79 (last series in fact)

Well, at least we seem to have picked up a tiny bit this morning, as I speak we're 146-9, but only because of a shocking umpiring decision, can't remember which Jones it was but one of them should have been stumped, he clearly did not have his bat over the line.
Not that I'm complaining though!

[C C Csiders]

155 all out. Much better than we could have anticipated at 21-5.

The deficit is only 35. we now need to bowl very well and get them out for under 200 again to have any chance, I think. No easy runs please.

This isn't likely to go beyond 3 days.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 22 2005,11:31)]This isn't likely to go beyond 3 days.
*sob*

Guess who's got tickets for Sunday...

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[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 22 2005,11:41)]
Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 22 2005,11:31)]This isn't likely to go beyond 3 days.
*sob*

Guess who's got tickets for Sunday...

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The forecast is for rain on Sunday. Your best bet is for us to be 232-9 chasing 233 to win, and Sunday to be completely rained off. Full refund, and then Harmison edges McGrath through the slips for a single at 10.31 on Monday morning.

[Matt the Shrimp]

18/1... Langer run out by Pietersen. KP is having an awesome Test debut.

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The urge to say "told you so" is proving all but irresistible...!!

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[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 22 2005,12:05)]18/1... Langer run out by Pietersen. *KP is having an awesome Test debut.

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The urge to say "told you so" is proving all but irresistible...!!

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Why? Who doubted he would make an impact?

I don't think anyone questions his ability - the only question mark was whether you leave at Thorpe, bearing in mind his remarkable record against Australia, and his reliability in a crisis. Bell was a given following his runs against Bangladesh. There would have been no justification to leave him out, having been piked to play against Bangla ahead of Pietersen, and he came up with the runs.

Following yesterday's demise to 21-5 a swift recall for Thorpe could be in the offing. It may also be as an extra batsman, if we can rely on Flintoff's body putting in the overs.

Anyway, another couple out before lunch would be good. Get Jones on for Hoggard I think.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 22 2005,12:10)]Following yesterday's demise to 21-5 a swift recall for Thorpe could be in the offing.
Nope - because Thorpe has retired from Test cricket with immediate effect. A shame - not an ideal send off for him; but perhaps one befitting of one of England's perenially tortured souls...

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Matt

[The General]

I cant see us chasing 250/300 to win really (which i'd imagine will be the target at the end of the day) and then we will be bowled out on Day 3 and MtS wont be a happy bunny ...

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[Bucks_blue]

I went yesterday. It was my first test match and boy what a test match. Had some great banter with the Aussies around us all day.

Too much happened to write about it all and I'm still hungover to type the tapping is hurting my head. But at points yesterday it was as good as the playoff final. Unbelievable atmosphere. Fantastic day.

Mts - tickets for Sunday?! We were were contemplating getting the aussies in to bat again when McGrath was skittling us over. Maybe even calling for the extra half hour in case we bowled them out for a second time and we needed to bat again!

It'll all be over on Saturday weather permitting. The pitch it too poor and the bowlers too good for it to last longer.

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 22 2005,12:18)]Nope - because Thorpe has retired from Test cricket with immediate effect. *A shame - not an ideal send off for him; but perhaps one befitting of one of England's perenially tortured souls...

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Matt
Bugger, I missed that. Haven't see a paper for the last couple of days.

Too many easy runs coming from Hoggard and Flintoff - that is criminal in a low-scoring match. Harmison doing the business from the other end. Jones needs to keep him company.

[Hong Kong Blue]

Yeah, its a shame Thorpe has retired, because if there is one situation he thrives at more than being 18-3, its in a 4th innings run chase.

If England have to chase 220+ to win as looks likely, I can honestly say that my first choice middle order batsman to do it would be Graham Thorpe.

[C C Csiders]

54-2 Hayden out bowled by Flintoff.

Now all we have to do is get Ponting, Martyn, Calrke, Gilchrist and Katich out and their tail will be exposed. http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 22 2005,12:05)]18/1... Langer run out by Pietersen. *KP is having an awesome Test debut.

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The urge to say "told you so" is proving all but irresistible...!!

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Pietersen did drop a couple yesterday, one was really hard, but the second regulation at test level.

However he is breath of fresh air and is the future, so i do not wish to sound churlish.

[Hong Kong Blue]

Quote[/b] (canveyshrimper @ July 22 2005,13:38)]
Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 22 2005,12:05)]18/1... Langer run out by Pietersen. *KP is having an awesome Test debut.

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The urge to say "told you so" is proving all but irresistible...!!

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Pietersen did drop a couple yesterday, one was really hard, but the second regulation at test level.

However he is breath of fresh air and is the future, so i do not wish to sound churlish.
I'll sound churlish - you can't afford to drop 3 catches against the Aussies in a low scoring game.

He's apparently dropped Clarke just before lunch off Jones.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ July 22 2005,15:30)]I'll sound churlish - you can't afford to drop 3 catches against the Aussies in a low scoring game.

He's apparently dropped Clarke just before lunch off Jones.
He got away with the first two, but he has badly blooped with dropping Clarke...

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[W4 Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 22 2005,15:56)]He got away with the first two, but he has badly blooped with dropping Clarke...

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Who knows Matt - Aussies carry on like this and you might get some play on Sunday after all!

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 22 2005,15:56)]
Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ July 22 2005,15:30)]I'll sound churlish - you can't afford to drop 3 catches against the Aussies in a low scoring game.

He's apparently dropped Clarke just before lunch off Jones.
He got away with the first two, but he has badly blooped with dropping Clarke...

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Bugger - I will be churlish now. You can't afford to drop any against the Aussies. Also Clarke has been out of form.

Strange because in the one dayers his catching has been fantastic.

Clarke is now 46 not out.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Clarke is 82 n.o. now... Bell is on bowling after the Wheelie Bin got taken out of the attack after a stellar 0/47 off 9 overs.

Looks like I'll be there to watch the Aussies go one-up on Sunday...

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[W4 Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 22 2005,16:51)]the Wheelie Bin got taken out of the attack after a stellar 0/47 off 9 overs
Don't you talk about the King of Spain like that

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[Museshrimper]

COME ON!!! All of a sudden we have a glimmer of hope with the 2 batters that were in gone in succession. Two new players at the crease, we need another quick one still i feel. Come on England!

[blues_r_best]

A great throw by the King of Spain, and Brett Lee is run out.

Why is Ashley Giles the King of Spain?

[blues_r_best]

Some coffee mugs that were ordered arrived boasting not that he was the "king of spin" but in fact the "king of Spain".

[Hong Kong Blue]

Three days into the Ashes and I'm already rain-dancing.

Come on the British weather!

[lordlumpington]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ July 24 2005,00:43)]Three days into the Ashes and I'm already rain-dancing.

Come on the British weather!
The best 12th man we have....and he's doing well this morning !!

[silentshrimper]

leigh top bouy no1 football holigan n holiday 2 moz says:
did u watch the cricket
DaVe xD says:
nah
leigh top bouy no1 football holigan n holiday 2 moz says:
mug
DaVe xD says:
whats goin on
leigh top bouy no1 football holigan n holiday 2 moz says:
we gt slewed
leigh top bouy no1 football holigan n holiday 2 moz says:
finshed already

repeat of the last 2008689 times wev tried to win hehe

[lordlumpington]

Quote[/b] (silentshrimper @ July 24 2005,16:50)]leigh top bouy no1 football holigan n holiday 2 moz says:
did u watch the cricket
DaVe xD says:
nah
leigh top bouy no1 football holigan n holiday 2 moz says:
mug
DaVe xD says:
whats goin on
leigh top bouy no1 football holigan n holiday 2 moz says:
we gt slewed
leigh top bouy no1 football holigan n holiday 2 moz says:
finshed already

repeat of the last 2008689 times wev tried to win hehe
Or to put it another way we were s**t !

Any changes for the 2nd test ??

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[Museshrimper]

Personally, I would;ve had Thorpe in for Bell this test. As we cant do that anymore, the only possible change is Key for Bell and I dont see that happening myself. Our middle order is way too inexperienced now, in the past year or so Thorpe, Butcher and Hussain have all disappeared, but Butcher is just injured I think.

Vaughan needs to get runs, if he wasnt captain he would've been out ages ago IMO.

[sufcintheprem]

Quote[/b] (Museshrimper @ July 24 2005,18:53)]Personally, I would;ve had Thorpe in for Bell this test. As we cant do that anymore, the only possible change is Key for Bell and I dont see that happening myself. Our middle order is way too inexperienced now, in the past year or so Thorpe, Butcher and Hussain have all disappeared, but Butcher is just injured I think.

Vaughan needs to get runs, if he wasnt captain he would've been out ages ago IMO.
I'm so glad I've finally seen someone else who shares doubts over Bell's place.

As mentioned on here, Thorpe would have loved to come in to a game where there were two days left to chase a big total. Why were all the media saying it was a decision between Thorpe and Pietersen, two players who inspire the most confidence in me when batting against the Aussies.

Fair enough, Bell has something about him and he played Warne reasonably welll for a bit but he was beaten all ends up for the wicket. Thorpe in the same position, I'm adamant would have at least got a start and as we have seen, Pietersen is amazingly unflustered by the big occasion.

There's plenty of pluses to take from the game. Harmison's bowling and Pietersen's batting obviously stand out. I'd also give a mention to the opening pair in the second innings cos they gave us the platform we needed.

The negatives are very worrying though. Number 3 and four for England seem to be a prioblem area when Thorpe's not playing. Not only did Vaughan and Bell score very poorly, neither looked at all confident and Vaughan hasn't looked at all confident for a while now. What I'd give for a Damien Martyn to come in for us there.

Another negative was the horrendously sloppy fielding. I can think of three dropped chances that really let us down. Not just Pietersen. Jones again raised doubts over his wicketkeeping although at least put up some resistance in the first innings. You just can't give spurn chances when playing against superior opposition. You have to bring your game face and there seemed to be a few left in the changing room.

The big question following this test in my eyes, though, is should Thorpe be in for Bell?

[sismith]

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ July 24 2005,21:41)]Vaughan needs to get runs, if he wasnt captain he would've been out ages ago IMO.
I'm so glad I've finally seen someone else who shares doubts over Bell's place.

Another negative was the horrendously sloppy fielding. *I can think of three dropped chances that really let us down. *Not just Pietersen. *[/QUOTE]
Those are the 3 most striking things to come out of it.
I hate to say it but catches do win matches.

I cant see Vaughan going before the world cup in 2007

And Ian Bell despite playing well all summer domestically isnt up to facing Lee Warne and co. just yet,.

[canveyshrimper]

The point that people are missing about Thorpe is that he has a chronic back condition, which could go again at any time, by Thorpe,s own admission. Thorpe has been a great player for England but we have to look to the future and it was likely that Bell would play at some time if his back gave out.

There are plusses the Aussies do not fancy Harmison, and similarly Flintoff & Jones. There will not be changes for Edgbaston, and that in my view is about right. The bowlers have proved that they can take 20 wickets. Now it is up to the batsmen to prove they can play against McGrath & Warne, and the fielders not to spill chances that come their way.

The Aussies are ruthless and all their years of domination have not blunted this ruthlessness. We know England at their best can compete, and although this series is a year early for England there is nothing wrong with the basics of the England team. They have progressed, are well coached and well led and need to be supported. No doubt there will be no nothing no marks in the press calling for wholesale changes and sackings but this has been proven before that it just does not work. The players selected have to hold their hands up, forget Lords and prove the can play in the remaining four matches.

There are other points as well that need to be addressed, like the plethora of one day matches prior to the test series. The late scheduling of the series which cuts across the opening of the football season, and the fact that the pitches are drier and will play into the hands of a certain Mr Warne the greatest spinner of all time.

I would ask everyone to keep faith with the team, we will not win the ashes this time, but we do have the makings of a fine side.

[Museshrimper]

I'm not wanting wholesale changes, I just feel Thorpe, at the moment in time, is better than Ian Bell is, Bell's been thrown in at the deep end, going from playing the easiest team to the hardest and I think he would've been better suited to the ashes after this.

Hope he proves me wrong though...

[lordlumpington]

Quote[/b] (Museshrimper @ July 24 2005,18:53)]Personally, I would;ve had Thorpe in for Bell this test. As we cant do that anymore, the only possible change is Key for Bell and I dont see that happening myself. Our middle order is way too inexperienced now, in the past year or so Thorpe, Butcher and Hussain have all disappeared, but Butcher is just injured I think.

Vaughan needs to get runs, if he wasnt captain he would've been out ages ago IMO.
The Ausies have always had a policy of picking the team and then selecting the skipper.
Then again form in temporary and class permanent,just seems Vaughan has picked the wrong time to loose his.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 22 2005,16:51)]Looks like I'll be there to watch the Aussies go one-up on Sunday...
I was there yesterday... and it was miserable. *It goes down as one of the worst days of international cricket at which I've had the misfortune to be present. *The worst thing is that, so far as I know, I will not be entitled to a refund - even though I witnessed fewer than ten overs' play yesterday.

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

It p*ssed it down for the 6 hours from when I arrived (9.45 a.m. or so) until play started (3.45pm).

I was then "treated" to an hour of monstrously awful cricket from everyone in an England shirt bar Pietersen. *G.O. Jones's shot was diabolical. *In what conceivable way - when, potentially, there was plenty of rain about and thus playing conservatively must have been the only course to be taken - did he think his casual on-side slap was in any way appropriate? *Nob.

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Giles was little better... his second ball a textbook piece of fishing outside off-stump, and the ball was duly chipped to gully.

At this point, Pietersen realised he was running out of partners, and so he began to open up. *In a memorable over against Warne, he brought up his fifty by running two after a measured on-side drive. *The next ball, he absolutely thumped Warne out of the ground with a huge on-side six, and then almost repeated the feat the following ball with another straight drive which only just bounced inside the boundary rope for four. *You could tell that Shane was a tad miffed by the fact that KP had larruped him so dismissvely for 12 in an over.

Meanwhile, McGrath continued to clean up at the other end... and sure enough, KP ran out of partners. *Less than an hour after they'd started - including a break for 10 minutes after a sharp shower - the Aussies had won a crushing victory. *Needless to say, I was more than a tad miffed.

So, where does this leave England? *Right now is not the right time to be advocating wholesale changes, but the following thoughts come to mind:

*The only player to come out totally unblemished is Harmison. *Two cracking bowling performances, and match returns of 8/107 (including a five-fer) is highly respectable given the opposition. *He created genuine fear and respect amongst the Aussies.

*From a batting point of view, Kevin Pietersen was quite clearly the right pick for the side... and (as Mike Atherton said on C4 yesterday) the selectors c*cked it up at the beginning of the summer. *The question ought never to have been Pietersen or Thorpe; it ought instead to have been Thorpe or Bell back in May. *They picked Bell - and perhaps they picked wrong. *Bell has gone from smearing the equivalent of a minor counties attack (Bangladesh) to facing Warne & McGrath - and he is clearly not ready, which is a huge shame. *The only question is: what will damage Bell more - being dropped now, or being taken apart by Warne, Lee and McGrath for the rest of the series? *My guess is that another pair of single figure scores at Egbaston will lead to a campaign of begging outside Graham Thorpe's house for one last hurrah against the Aussies.

*Vaughan needs to sort himself out quick. *Mike Brearley he clearly ain't. *The Ayatollah may have been a mediocre batsman himself, but as a psychology graduate, he knew how to wring 100% out of the likes of Beefy, Bob Willis, John Emburey and Graham Dilley. *Vaughan has not done that this Test. *Look at Freddy - some key wickets, perhaps (notably Gilchrist, twice) - but bloody expensive... match stats of 4/173 simply isn't good enough; and he failed miserably twice with the bat. *This is, by a country mile, the toughest hour of Vaughan's captaincy. *He needs to respond in the simplest - and yet most difficult - way possible: runs. *He neads a hatful at Egbaston.

*I think our openers will do OK. *Both sets of openers had a poor first innings - but at 80/0 in the second innings, we looked fine. *It was the failure of Vaughan, Bell and Freddy with the bat that screwed us, not Banger & Strauss.

*Bowl Jones more. *If it were not for dropped catches, his figures would have been far better. *Inded, the bowling attack looked generally OK, apart from the King of Spain (who was woeful) and the fact that Freddy was far too loose, too often.

*Catching... obviously our biggest flaw. *Catches win matches, as they say. *KP was the highest-profile casualty - but he can improve - or be stuck out in the deep. *But the biggest worry was G.O. Jones. *Two or three regulation chances were put down - and that simply won't do. *Time for Fozzie and Chris Read to start grafting, and getting some high profile scores together in the County Championship. * If Jones continues to fail with the gloves as badly as he did at Lord's, then his spot in the side is in my view definitely up for grabs. *His second-innings batting did little to reinforce his candidature for selection, yesterday.

The selectors are unlikely to change anything in advance of Egbaston, I'd wager. *But they will hopefully be making notes of whom they need to watch. *If the Aussies go 2-0 up in Birmingham (which they will if we play as poorly there as we did at Lord's), then the selectors will need to make changes if we're to save the series - and, importantly, save the cricketing summer.

After all, the Old Trafford Test coincides with the kick-off of the Premier$hite season. *If we go 3-0 down there, then cricket will be relegated to the inside pages for the rest of the summer - and if that happens, it must be seen as a massive failure on the part of the ECB. *I hope it doesn't happen.

Here's to a big improvement in England's fortunes in the next 10 days.

Matt

[Museshrimper]

Agreed 100%

[lordlumpington]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,11:59)]
Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 22 2005,16:51)]Looks like I'll be there to watch the Aussies go one-up on Sunday...
I was there yesterday... and it was miserable. *It goes down as one of the worst days of international cricket at which I've had the misfortune to be present. *The worst thing is that, so far as I know, I will not be entitled to a refund - even though I witnessed fewer than ten overs' play yesterday.

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

It p*ssed it down for the 6 hours from when I arrived (9.45 a.m. or so) until play started (3.45pm).

I was then "treated" to an hour of monstrously awful cricket from everyone in an England shirt bar Pietersen. *G.O. Jones's shot was diabolical. *In what conceivable way - when, potentially, there was plenty of rain about and thus playing conservatively must have been the only course to be taken - did he think his casual on-side slap was in any way appropriate? *Nob.

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Giles was little better... his second ball a textbook piece of fishing outside off-stump, and the ball was duly chipped to gully.

At this point, Pietersen realised he was running out of partners, and so he began to open up. *In a memorable over against Warne, he brought up his fifty by running two after a measured on-side drive. *The next ball, he absolutely thumped Warne out of the ground with a huge on-side six, and then almost repeated the feat the following ball with another straight drive which only just bounced inside the boundary rope for four. *You could tell that Shane was a tad miffed by the fact that KP had larruped him so dismissvely for 12 in an over.

Meanwhile, McGrath continued to clean up at the other end... and sure enough, KP ran out of partners. *Less than an hour after they'd started - including a break for 10 minutes after a sharp shower - the Aussies had won a crushing victory. *Needless to say, I was more than a tad miffed.

So, where does this leave England? *Right now is not the right time to be advocating wholesale changes, but the following thoughts come to mind:

*The only player to come out totally unblemished is Harmison. *Two cracking bowling performances, and match returns of 8/107 (including a five-fer) is highly respectable given the opposition. *He created genuine fear and respect amongst the Aussies.

*From a batting point of view, Kevin Pietersen was quite clearly the right pick for the side... and (as Mike Atherton said on C4 yesterday) the selectors c*cked it up at the beginning of the summer. *The question ought never to have been Pietersen or Thorpe; it ought instead to have been Thorpe or Bell back in May. *They picked Bell - and perhaps they picked wrong. *Bell has gone from smearing the equivalent of a minor counties attack (Bangladesh) to facing Warne & McGrath - and he is clearly not ready, which is a huge shame. *The only question is: what will damage Bell more - being dropped now, or being taken apart by Warne, Lee and McGrath for the rest of the series? *My guess is that another pair of single figure scores at Egbaston will lead to a campaign of begging outside Graham Thorpe's house for one last hurrah against the Aussies.

*Vaughan needs to sort himself out quick. *Mike Brearley he clearly ain't. *The Ayatollah may have been a mediocre batsman himself, but as a psychology graduate, he knew how to wring 100% out of the likes of Beefy, Bob Willis, John Emburey and Graham Dilley. *Vaughan has not done that this Test. *Look at Freddy - some key wickets, perhaps (notably Gilchrist, twice) - but bloody expensive... match stats of 4/173 simply isn't good enough; and he failed miserably twice with the bat. *This is, by a country mile, the toughest hour of Vaughan's captaincy. *He needs to respond in the simplest - and yet most difficult - way possible: runs. *He neads a hatful at Egbaston.

*I think our openers will do OK. *Both sets of openers had a poor first innings - but at 80/0 in the second innings, we looked fine. *It was the failure of Vaughan, Bell and Freddy with the bat that screwed us, not Banger & Strauss.

*Bowl Jones more. *If it were not for dropped catches, his figures would have been far better. *Inded, the bowling attack looked generally OK, apart from the King of Spain (who was woeful) and the fact that Freddy was far too loose, too often.

*Catching... obviously our biggest flaw. *Catches win matches, as they say. *KP was the highest-profile casualty - but he can improve - or be stuck out in the deep. *But the biggest worry was G.O. Jones. *Two or three regulation chances were put down - and that simply won't do. *Time for Fozzie and Chris Read to start grafting, and getting some high profile scores together in the County Championship. * If Jones continues to fail with the gloves as badly as he did at Lord's, then his spot in the side is in my view definitely up for grabs. *His second-innings batting did little to reinforce his candidature for selection, yesterday.

The selectors are unlikely to change anything in advance of Egbaston, I'd wager. *But they will hopefully be making notes of whom they need to watch. *If the Aussies go 2-0 up in Birmingham (which they will if we play as poorly there as we did at Lord's), then the selectors will need to make changes if we're to save the series - and, importantly, save the cricketing summer.

After all, the Old Trafford Test coincides with the kick-off of the Premier$hite season. *If we go 3-0 down there, then cricket will be relegated to the inside pages for the rest of the summer - and if that happens, it must be seen as a massive failure on the part of the ECB. *I hope it doesn't happen.

Here's to a big improvement in England's fortunes in the next 10 days.

Matt
That was ten overs of we've got a round of golf lined up on Monday so lets get out now!
Why did Pieterson keep taking the singles so early in the over and exposing the rabbits? There was always a chance it could have p***ed down again yesterday evening and look at it today.
Matt, i agree that G.O. Jones is on borrowed time but would give Matt Prior of Sussex the job. I also still nervous about Bangers foot movement and reckon the've got him worked out as they did down under.

[Hong Kong Blue]

The over Harmison was out I think Pietersen turned down the singles until the 5th ball of Warne's over to leave Harmison with just one ball left to survive.
He may however have been better advised to look for the single instead of the boundary the over before S. Jones was out.

[C C Csiders]

Agree with most of that MtS.

A few of my own views:

Trescothick and Strauss - should be stuck with throughout the series. They have consistently (Strauss for a year, Trescothick for five or so) put together the big scores as their Test averages prove. There are NO better English openers, and a repeat of the 80-0 in the second innings will do for the rest of the series.

Vaughan - hopelessly out of form with the bat, and has been for the best part of a year. Is the captaincy affecting his form? Has to remain a part of the team though as the class will come back in due course - just hope it is during this series.

Bell - has time on his side. Should be retained for the Edgbaston test, then review the situation. However, with Thorpe now retired from international cricket and Butcher injured who else is there? Surely not back to Key again!

Pietersen - inspired. Only a miracle catch dismissed him first innings.Can see him scoring a couple of 100s in the remaining four Tests, as long as he doesn't run out of partners (so move him up to 4). Concentration in the field needs to be improved (but that can be said for most).

Flintoff - bowling was too expensive with too may easy runs. Did cause uncomfotable moments with the ball at times, and if he can keeep icking up Gilchrist cheaply we may yet have a chance. I think he will score runs at some stage. His first innings duck was courtesy of a shooter from McGrath.

G. Jones - in the side as our answer to Gilchrist. However, if you can't keep wicket what's the point. Stayed around in the first innings with a vital 30, but what was that in the second knock. Time for a change here methinks.

Giles - inept with bat, and more worringly the ball. The fact that the 2nd Test is at Edgbaston is the only thing that may save him from the axe. Personally, I might axe him anyway. The Aussies will not be fazed by him at all, and if we haven't got spinners good enough - don't pick them (even if it is a 'turner'). Play your best bowlers whatever they are. If it's spinning (and you would have to ask the groundsman why, given the Warne factor) give Vaughan and Pietersen a go for a few overs and see what happens.

Hoggard - ineffective in this game. Like Flintoff too may easy runs at too may runs per over. Have to keep with him for the time being though.

S. Jones - under-bowled. Can make the Aussies uncomfortable I think given a few more overs.

Harmison - outstanding. I was concerned that he had left his best form behind him following the S Africa tour, but he was back to his best, and the Aussies don't like it.

My selection for Edgbaston: Trescothick, Strauss, Vaughan (capt.), Pietersen, Bell, Flintoff, Collingwood, Read (wk), S. Jones, Harmison, Hoggard

I have bolstered the batting (we couldn't break 200 in either innings) by including Collingwood - who may also be a golden arm/partnership breaker with his subtle swinging medium pacers. No point in playing a spinner, as stated above, if they are ineffective and basically not up to the job. Read in for G. Jones as he is a far better keeper and will not drop easy chances. Juggling the lower order as Hoggard doesn't play any shots so we may as well get a few from Jones and Harmison swinging the bat at 9 and 10.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Spot on, C C Csiders. Colly for the Wheelie Bin is a great call. Pietersen up to 4 as well. Thorpe in for Bell if he fails to hit double figures at Egbaston.

Thought Hoggy bowled OK, meself...

Matt

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,12:46)]Thorpe in for Bell if he fails to hit double figures at Egbaston.
Do you think he might reconsider his international retirement then?

If not, the best replacement for a non-achieving (and by that I think it is not making at least a 30 or so in the next Test) may have to be Mark Ramprakash. I am no fan of Robert Key.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,12:53)]
Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,12:46)]Thorpe in for Bell if he fails to hit double figures at Egbaston.
Do you think he might reconsider his international retirement then?

If not, the best replacement for a non-achieving (and by that I think it is not making at least a 30 or so in the next Test) may have to be Mark Ramprakash. I am no fan of Robert Key.
If Graveney begged him? *Of course he would. *Closing your career against Bangladesh is no way to go. *Closing your career with a massive knock against the Ockers in front of your home crowd at the Oval is surely the only way that someone like Thorpey should go?

I certainly hope he'd reconsider, at any rate.

If not Thorpey... who? *Maybe Graeme Hick...?!

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/oops.gif *http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/upside.gif

OK, being a bit more serious... what about Mal Loye? *He's someone who is clearly scoring for fun at the moment; and someone who despite being a big runs accumulator in the County Championship, seems to get overlooked by England.

A thought, perhaps.

Matt

P.S. Surely you're kidding with Ramps, aren't you? Agree with you about fat-boy Key, though... I'm no fan either.

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,13:04)]
Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,12:53)]
Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,12:46)]Thorpe in for Bell if he fails to hit double figures at Egbaston.
Do you think he might reconsider his international retirement then?

If not, the best replacement for a non-achieving (and by that I think it is not making at least a 30 or so in the next Test) may have to be Mark Ramprakash. I am no fan of Robert Key.
If Graveney begged him? *Of course he would. *Closing your career against Bangladesh is no way to go. *Closing your career with a massive knock against the Ockers in front of your home crowd at the Oval is surely the only way that someone like Thorpey should go?

I certainly hope he'd reconsider, at any rate.

If not Thorpey... who? *Maybe Graeme Hick...?!

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/oops.gif *http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/upside.gif

OK, being a bit more serious... what about Mal Loye? *He's someone who is clearly scoring for fun at the moment; and someone who despite being a big runs accumulator in the County Championship, seems to get overlooked by England.

A thought, perhaps.

Matt

P.S. Surely you're kidding with Ramps, aren't you? *Agree with you about fat-boy Key, though... I'm no fan either.
I think that Thorpe is a bloke that once his mind is made up then he won't change.

I am sorry that you refer to Giles as the wheelie bin as described by the buffoon Blofeld, did you see his run out of Brett Lee?? However I do agree that Giles is not the answer as a test spinner and would give Graeme Swann a go, not only an offie who can spin it but a good bat and fielder.

I think the next cab off the rank as batsman if Rob Key is not picked will be Ed Joyce, the nearest i have seen to Gower (David not Mark). After that Ed Smith or possibly Alastair Cook if a berth at the top of the order becomes available. Again here is just a lot of inexperience. I presume the calls for Hick & Ramprakash were a joke. Also the other bif miss for England is Mark Butcher a player the Australians hac=ve great respect for.

I would stick with the pace attack it misfired a bit and i think the Aussies targetted Flintoff to hit him off line. Simon Jones was underbowled as he often is, and i wonder if this is a legacy from his horrific knee injury. Harmison outstanding and the Aussies are not keen on him. I would keep Hoggard as he is 100percenter, but Tremlett is in the wings, although not express pace delivering from 6ft 8" is a great advantage.

I would stay with Geraint Jones for a while longer as i just think he has something about him. It is only largely inexperienced keepers that would replace him. Although with possible Essex bias i would go for James Foster, a better batsman than Read, and a vastly improved gloveman. It also worth remembering with Foster that his last test was against Australia and he earned lots of praise at the time, although now he seems to be forgotten I do not think that batting wise Chris Read is good enough and Matt Prior too inexperienced to chance.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (canveyshrimper @ July 25 2005,13:59)]I think that Thorpe is a bloke that once his mind is made up then he won't change.

I am sorry that you refer to Giles as the wheelie bin as described by the buffoon Blofeld, did you see his run out of Brett Lee?? However I do agree that Giles is not the answer as a test spinner and would give Graeme Swann a go, not only an offie who can spin it but a good bat and fielder.

I would stay with Geraint Jones for a while longer as i just think he has something about him. It is only largely inexperienced keepers that would replace him. Although with possible Essex bias i would go for James Foster, a better batsman than Read, and a vastly improved gloveman. It also worth remembering with Foster that his last test was against Australia and he earned lots of praise at the time, although now he seems to be forgotten I do not think that batting wise Chris Read is good enough and Matt Prior too inexperienced to chance.
I did see Giles's excellent run-out, and I should of course be loath to use phrases which Blofeld relies on (a buffoon is an excellent description for him, alas - he seems to have lost the plot in recent years).

But there's no escaping the fact that Giles was utterly woeful in this Test - his run out aside, his only contribution appears to have been to let Clarke & Martyn get their eye in at 100/3 in Australia's second innings. A poor repayment of Vaughan's show of faith in him.

As for batsmen - I was kidding about Hick, of course! You may be right about Thorpey - and that would be a shame; that being so, Ed Joyce might be a good call. Ali Cook should be spared - he is too important for England's future.

I've not seen enough of Swann to judge; I can only hope he's better than Gareth Batty - who on each occasion I've seen him in a big game (e.g. last season's C&G final) has been dire. I still think the suggestion of Collingwood is the best I've heard in a while...

As for GO Jones, perhaps it's my anger at the way he threw his wicket away so pathetically yesterday, but whatever - his performance was simply not good enough. My instinct is that it's between Fozzie and Read as to his potential replacements - and I agree with the assessment that, mystifyingly, the selectors appear to have forgotten about Fozzie. He's the ideal choice - better with the gloves than Jones; better with the bat than Read. Jones will stay for Egbaston, but if we lose that in three and a bit days, I expect that calls for the axe to be wielded will become deafening.

As for the bowling, Freddy needs to sort his radar out - too many down leg. Apart from that, the bowling is the least of our worries...

Matt

[C C Csiders]

By playing Collingwood we would not (really) need to concern ourselves with the batting prowess of the gloveman. That is why I would go with Read, as he is (in my opinion) clearly the best bet in this department.

I was not kidding about Ramprakash. An Ashes series at 1-0 down is no time to blood test debutants or those with limited Test experience. So I wouldn't consider Ed Joyce (is he qualified, as yet) or Ed Smith who looked hopelessly out of place in the Test arena two years ago. So, in that case the most experienced batsman out there with vast Test experience (without Thorpe and Butcher) is Ramps. Let us not forget it was he alongside Butcher (plus Nasser) that won that Test against the Aussies at Headingley four years ago.

Mal Loye is certainly experienced and may be a good call over the younger batsman waiting in the wings. He is in the runs at the moment, and maybe he should have been called upon 3 or 4 years ago when he was much more prolific.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,14:36)]I was not kidding about Ramprakash.
Perhaps it's just me, but he seems to have the air of a man with the weight of the world on his shoulders... he has the face of a man full of woes, not one full of fight...

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Matt

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,14:53)]
Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,14:36)]I was not kidding about Ramprakash.
Perhaps it's just me, but he seems to have the air of a man with the weight of the world on his shoulders... he has the face of a man full of woes, not one full of fight...

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Matt
I'm not saying pick him by the way.

Bell remians for now as long as there is runs at Edgbaston. If they do not materialise I just think we need some experience rather than throwing inexperience to the Aussies. We have picked inexperienced players in a side losing to the Ausses before with disastrous effect - think Jason Gallian, and more especially Mark Lathwell who went from opening for England to Second XI cricket never to be seen again in no time at all.

I am trying my best to think of someone with Test experience who is NOT Robert Key!

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,15:04)]I am trying my best to think of someone with Test experience who is NOT Robert Key!
http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

How about Andy Flower...?!

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

That would be bloody entertaining... after all, he's now a British citizen, isn't he?!

Matt

P.S. I agree that Bell should stay for the Egbaston test - it would be too ridiculously knee-jerk to drop him now...

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,15:04)]
Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,14:53)]
Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,14:36)]I was not kidding about Ramprakash.
Perhaps it's just me, but he seems to have the air of a man with the weight of the world on his shoulders... he has the face of a man full of woes, not one full of fight...

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Matt
I'm not saying pick him by the way.

Bell remians for now as long as there is runs at Edgbaston. If they do not materialise I just think we need some experience rather than throwing inexperience to the Aussies. We have picked inexperienced players in a side losing to the Ausses before with disastrous effect - think Jason Gallian, and more especially Mark Lathwell who went from opening for England to Second XI cricket never to be seen again in no time at all.

I am trying my best to think of someone with Test experience who is NOT Robert Key!
In the main you are right, I am sure that Bell will be a good England player for years to come. Difficult to judge about young players for Gallian & Lathwell I will offer you Pietersen & Thorpe both started against the Aussies to the manor born. Poor Lathwell sunk with out trace & Gallian trading water at Notts.

I like Collingwood & would up the fielding, but have my reservations with his medium pace dobbers, Mal Loye is a good shout, and the only other i can think of with big test experience is Nick Knight.

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,15:19)]How about Andy Flower...?!

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

That would be bloody entertaining... after all, he's now a British citizen, isn't he?!
Well it did pass through my mind waht the qualification period is for him. It's normally 4 years, but something in the back of my mind says that if a player has played Test cricket for another country they have to serve a 10 year qualification period.

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,14:11)]
Quote[/b] (canveyshrimper @ July 25 2005,13:59)]I think that Thorpe is a bloke that once his mind is made up then he won't change.

I am sorry that you refer to Giles as the wheelie bin as described by the buffoon Blofeld, did you see his run out of Brett Lee?? However I do agree that Giles is not the answer as a test spinner and would give Graeme Swann a go, not only an offie who can spin it but a good bat and fielder.

I would stay with Geraint Jones for a while longer as i just think he has something about him. It is only largely inexperienced keepers that would replace him. Although with possible Essex bias i would go for James Foster, a better batsman than Read, and a vastly improved gloveman. It also worth remembering with Foster that his last test was against Australia and he earned lots of praise at the time, although now he seems to be forgotten I do not think that batting wise Chris Read is good enough and Matt Prior too inexperienced to chance.
I did see Giles's excellent run-out, and I should of course be loath to use phrases which Blofeld relies on (a buffoon is an excellent description for him, alas - he seems to have lost the plot in recent years).

But there's no escaping the fact that Giles was utterly woeful in this Test - his run out aside, his only contribution appears to have been to let Clarke & Martyn get their eye in at 100/3 in Australia's second innings. *A poor repayment of Vaughan's show of faith in him.

As for batsmen - I was kidding about Hick, of course! *You may be right about Thorpey - and that would be a shame; that being so, Ed Joyce might be a good call. *Ali Cook should be spared - he is too important for England's future.

I've not seen enough of Swann to judge; I can only hope he's better than Gareth Batty - who on each occasion I've seen him in a big game (e.g. last season's C&G final) has been dire. *I still think the suggestion of Collingwood is the best I've heard in a while...

As for GO Jones, perhaps it's my anger at the way he threw his wicket away so pathetically yesterday, but whatever - his performance was simply not good enough. *My instinct is that it's between Fozzie and Read as to his potential replacements - and I agree with the assessment that, mystifyingly, the selectors appear to have forgotten about Fozzie. *He's the ideal choice - better with the gloves than Jones; better with the bat than Read. *Jones will stay for Egbaston, but if we lose that in three and a bit days, I expect that calls for the axe to be wielded will become deafening.

As for the bowling, Freddy needs to sort his radar out - too many down leg. *Apart from that, the bowling is the least of our worries...

Matt
Think you maybe be right about Giles, he has been a good solid pro for England, and I am sure he does not the side down on purpose. However it may be time to let him go. Thanks for agreeing with me about Blofeld, my dear old thing - t%$&*r.

I think we do have some good young batsmen around and agree that Cook ought to be spared the Aussies, but maybe go to Pakistan and India this winter. Ed Joyce from What I have seen is good, in form and fairly experiened. I think his qualification was from 1st July.

I think Graeme Swann blotted his copy book a little with Fletcher when he went to s.Africa about 4/5 years ago. He seems to have rehabilitated himself and movng to Notts has helped him as well, and I can assure you Matt he is 10 times better than Gareth Batty, decent bloke but not an international.

From our past mistakes i really do not see the point of screaming for someones head when they are not up to the task of competing against this Aussie side. You ask all the other international sides how to beat them in a series. None has since 1991.

Who would have thought a few years ago that we would say that England have a decent pace attack, in terms of serious pace the best in the world apart maybe from Pakistan. Freddy just needs to decide which side of the wicket to bowl on and tighten up a bit. He is great going at Gilchrist and the other lefties.

The other mistake that the ECB have made is making the 1st Test at Lords, it is 70 odd years since we beat them there. Should have started at Edgbaston or Headingly (although Leeds does not have a test this year).

A better and gutsier all round performance is needed at Edgbaston.

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (canveyshrimper @ July 25 2005,15:41)]The other mistake that the ECB have made is making the 1st Test at Lords, it is 70 odd years since we beat them there. Should have started at Edgbaston or Headingly (although Leeds does not have a test this year).
Spot on. Bizaare decision especially as the wicket was always going to suit McGrath and inspire the Aussies in general.

On top of that we should have started the series at the beginning of June when the conditions would have favoured us more, and maybe caught the Aussies cold, as was evidenced by their early 1-day performances.

[canveyshrimper]

Should be no one has beaten them since 2001 - should have gone to specsavers.

[Hong Kong Blue]

England's record at Lords was pretty poor against most teams up until the last but one time we played the Windies there (the game where we bowled them out for 54).

The square was relaid the year before that series and since then it has probably been our most successful ground. I can certainly understand playing the first game at Lords more than I can understand playing at Old Trafford instead of Headingley and starting in August instead of May.

[lordlumpington]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,15:19)]
Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,15:04)]I am trying my best to think of someone with Test experience who is NOT Robert Key!
http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

How about Andy Flower...?!

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

That would be bloody entertaining... after all, he's now a British citizen, isn't he?!

Matt

P.S. I agree that Bell should stay for the Egbaston test - it would be too ridiculously knee-jerk to drop him now...
Stuart Law is qualified now and i know hes 36 but that would really p**s them off if he played did the buisness ?

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

I say again Matt Prior behind the timbers

[C C Csiders]

See Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/4718021.stm)

No thanks. Good to see AB totally agree with my comments (re G. Jones and Collingwood) above, though later on in the article.

[Museshrimper]

Noooo! Robert Key is rubbish, he adds nothing bowling or fielding (can he move?) and there are many better batsmen than him.

[Hong Kong Blue]

I think Robert Key is destined to become the new Mark Ramprakrash: the best and most prolific batsman on the county circuit by some way, yet dropped and recalled like a yo-yo by England and never allowed to establish himself in the team.

Museshrimper - which county batsmen are better than Key?

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ July 26 2005,15:52)]Museshrimper - which county batsmen are better than Key?
I'll open the bidding with Graeme Hick and Mal Loye...

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Matt

[Museshrimper]

Ed Joyce another

[canveyshrimper]

Agree with Mal Loye, but not Hicky anymore. I will offer up David Sales or Ed Joyce.

[C C Csiders]

The aforementioned Mr Ramprakash and Owais Shah.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 26 2005,16:21)]Owais Shah.
Hmm... which reminds me, what happened to Usman Afzaal...? How wonderful it would be, for a whole host of reasons, if he were starring for England at the moment...

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[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 26 2005,16:23)]
Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 26 2005,16:21)]Owais Shah.
Hmm... which reminds me, what happened to Usman Afzaal...? *How wonderful it would be, for a whole host of reasons, if he were starring for England at the moment...

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
168 not out for Northants this season against Essex. Apart from that not much.

[Museshrimper]

What reasons would that be? Or have I missed something? *awaits getting 'wooooosh' as a reply*

[Matt the Shrimp]

Oh, I was alluding to the fact that he's a young Muslim man - and that it would be really positive, in the light of 7/7, for him to be playing well for England, if he were in the side... he'd be a really positive English & Muslim male role model. Perhaps it's naive, but to see a Muslim guy out there, scoring runs for England - and thereby necessarily saying "I see myself as English, and I'm proud to do things for my country" might assist with the feelings of alienation that so many young Muslim men feel in our country.

That was my thinking, at any rate. Indeed, it's hard to think of many, if any, other young British muslims on the fringes of a national team sport - so, at the moment, it's up to the boxers (Khan, Hamed).

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Matt

[Museshrimper]

I see, fair point, especially as cricket is the game that the Muslim and Hindu people love. If he were good enough though, he could be in it.

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 26 2005,16:38)]Oh, I was alluding to the fact that he's a young Muslim man - and that it would be really positive, in the light of 7/7, for him to be playing well for England, if he were in the side... he'd be a really positive English & Muslim male role model. *Perhaps it's naive, but to see a Muslim guy out there, scoring runs for England - and thereby necessarily saying "I see myself as English, and I'm proud to do things for my country" might assist with the feelings of alienation that so many young Muslim men feel in our country.

That was my thinking, at any rate. *Indeed, it's hard to think of many, if any, other young British muslims on the fringes of a national team sport - so, at the moment, it's up to the boxers (Khan, Hamed).

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Matt
And of course there can be no gretaer role model in this respect (being a Muslim and playing for and captaining England) than Nasser Hussain.

[Museshrimper]

Is he a muslim though? He was born in India (i think), but does he actually follow that faith?

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Museshrimper @ July 26 2005,16:56)]Is he a muslim though? He was born in India (i think), but does he actually follow that faith?
Yep deffo a Muslim. He was born in India, I think his father is Egyptian though. Possibly a Muslim in name only - I was christened but I certainly do not go to church. I am a complete non-believer.

[Matt the Shrimp]

But, alas, Nass has retired... and he's not as obviously a "young Muslim man" in the same way as Afzaal. *Indeed, Nasser was so "Brit" that you could forget he was Muslim at all.

Afzaal is - in his manner and his upbringing - someone who still looks and seems a part of the community of young, British Muslim men - the very ones whom we need to be including in our society right now.

However, he has to get into the side on merit. *It's just a shame that that's not happening at the moment.

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Matt

[Matt the Shrimp]

Incidentally, CCCsiders - cricinfo / Wisden have said the same as you suggested for the Egbaston test: keep the side the same, except drop Giles for Collingwood (who I understand has just hit a ton in the County Championship).

My side for next week would be:

1. Trescothick
2. Strauss
3. Vaughan (capt)
4. Pietersen
5. Bell
6. Collingwood
7. Flintoff
8. G.O. Jones (wk)
9. Hoggard
10. Harmison
11. S. Jones

Matt

[Museshrimper]

Same, I'd also have that. Collingwood is a better bat than Giles, a better fielder and would probably trouble the aussies just as much as Giles does bowling.

[Hong Kong Blue]

Two batsmen dominated county cricket last year. Both were for once English. One was Bell, the other Key.

Key hit 1500+ runs at about 90 last year.
He's followed it up with another 1000 (nearly) at over 60 this season.

Everyone goes on about his size (no-one in Oz seems to mind when Boon, Merv Hughes and Warne were/are doing the business), but the main thing he seems to have an appetite for is runs!

Mal Loye is just a knee-jerk reaction as he has made two consecutive big scores. He's also what 33 years old?

Joyce is a decent shout, he's dominating like Key did last year. The question is can he do this every season, like Key is doing.

Sales and Shah may have the talent but have yet to get close to matching Key's runs.

Ramps and Hick are too old to be considered.

[C C Csiders]

Embers joins the club:

J.E.Emburey's view (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/4726793.stm)

That's Allan Border, Wisden/Cricinfo, John Emburey, MtS and me the new England selection panel. http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 29 2005,12:51)]Embers joins the club:

J.E.Emburey's view (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/4726793.stm)

That's Allan Border, Wisden/Cricinfo, John Emburey, MtS and me the new England selection panel. http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

This isn't rocket science. Announce a 12 man squad, with Colly in place of Tremlett, and then turn up and look at the pitch next Thursday.

If it's a bunsen, pick the King of Spain; if it's a green-top, pick Colly.

Surely it's that simple, isn't it?

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Matt

[Hong Kong Blue]

I thought England had moved on from knee-jerk reactions.

Giles has had one bad game and people want him dropped. Giles is integral to the balance of the team, England need him to bowl to allow Freddie and Harmy a rest.

I think Edgbaston is neither a bunsen nor a green-top. I also believe that the most successful bowler there this season is one AF Giles.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ July 29 2005,14:27)]I thought England had moved on from knee-jerk reactions.

Giles has had one bad game and people want him dropped. Giles is integral to the balance of the team, England need him to bowl to allow Freddie and Harmy a rest.

I think Edgbaston is neither a bunsen nor a green-top. I also believe that the most successful bowler there this season is one AF Giles.
So, if someone is bowling like a sack of sh*t (0/47) and useless with the bat, you shouldn't drop him in favour of a man who has scored two tons this week and who has already proved his worth against the Aussies earlier this summer... because that would be kneejerk?

Well, call me kneejerk then. If Giles isn't taking wickets then, cracking run-outs aside (but then again, Colly has taken the catch of the summer so far), he is the proverbial chocolate teapot... totally useless.

He's taken wickets at Egbaston because he plays for Warwickshire. It's as convincing an argument for recalling Jason Gallian when England go to Trent Bridge.

Either someone is playing well, or they're not. And if they're not, you drop them until they buck their ideas up. We're quite happy for that to happen - indeed, we demand it - in football. So why should cricket be any different?

Finally, it's not so much a question of Giles, it's Collingwood. Frankly, on current form, he has to play, doesn't he? And since there's no one else to leave out, it has to be the King of Spain.

Matt

[Museshrimper]

I agree, compare what Collingwood can add to the side with what Giles adds, then you'll find Colly SHOULD contribute many more runs, save more runs fielding and probably could bowl figures better than 0/47, too. That's why I, and others, feel he should be in the side ahead of Giles - because Colly adds a lot more to us.

[Hong Kong Blue]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 29 2005,15:27)]
Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ July 29 2005,14:27)]I thought England had moved on from knee-jerk reactions.

Giles has had one bad game and people want him dropped. Giles is integral to the balance of the team, England need him to bowl to allow Freddie and Harmy a rest.

I think Edgbaston is neither a bunsen nor a green-top. I also believe that the most successful bowler there this season is one AF Giles.
So, if someone is bowling like a sack of sh*t (0/47) and useless with the bat, you shouldn't drop him in favour of a man who has scored two tons this week and who has already proved his worth against the Aussies earlier this summer... because that would be kneejerk?

Well, call me kneejerk then. *If Giles isn't taking wickets then, cracking run-outs aside (but then again, Colly has taken the catch of the summer so far), he is the proverbial chocolate teapot... totally useless.

He's taken wickets at Egbaston because he plays for Warwickshire. *It's as convincing an argument for recalling Jason Gallian when England go to Trent Bridge.

Either someone is playing well, or they're not. *And if they're not, you drop them until they buck their ideas up. *We're quite happy for that to happen - indeed, we demand it - in football. *So why should cricket be any different?

Finally, it's not so much a question of Giles, it's Collingwood. *Frankly, on current form, he has *to play, doesn't he? *And since there's no one else to leave out, it has to be the King of Spain.

Matt
Hoggard didn't bowl well that last test match, so shall we drop him as well?

Its a kneejerk reaction as its based on Giles' bowling in a single innings, at a time when England were already losing.

The point I was making earlier (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/4692677.stm)

My point re Giles taking lots of wickets at Edgbaston is relevant, as it means a spinner is taking wickets rather than the quicks.

Also Collingwood dropped two sitters in the field the other day.

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ July 29 2005,16:39)]
Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 29 2005,15:27)]
Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ July 29 2005,14:27)]I thought England had moved on from knee-jerk reactions.

Giles has had one bad game and people want him dropped. Giles is integral to the balance of the team, England need him to bowl to allow Freddie and Harmy a rest.

I think Edgbaston is neither a bunsen nor a green-top. I also believe that the most successful bowler there this season is one AF Giles.
So, if someone is bowling like a sack of sh*t (0/47) and useless with the bat, you shouldn't drop him in favour of a man who has scored two tons this week and who has already proved his worth against the Aussies earlier this summer... because that would be kneejerk?

Well, call me kneejerk then. *If Giles isn't taking wickets then, cracking run-outs aside (but then again, Colly has taken the catch of the summer so far), he is the proverbial chocolate teapot... totally useless.

He's taken wickets at Egbaston because he plays for Warwickshire. *It's as convincing an argument for recalling Jason Gallian when England go to Trent Bridge.

Either someone is playing well, or they're not. *And if they're not, you drop them until they buck their ideas up. *We're quite happy for that to happen - indeed, we demand it - in football. *So why should cricket be any different?

Finally, it's not so much a question of Giles, it's Collingwood. *Frankly, on current form, he has *to play, doesn't he? *And since there's no one else to leave out, it has to be the King of Spain.

Matt
Hoggard didn't bowl well that last test match, so shall we drop him as well?

Its a kneejerk reaction as its based on Giles' bowling in a single innings, at a time when England were already losing.

The point I was making earlier (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/4692677.stm)

My point re Giles taking lots of wickets at Edgbaston is relevant, as it means a spinner is taking wickets rather than the quicks.

Also Collingwood dropped two sitters in the field the other day.
On balance I think Hong Kong Shrimper is just about right, but Matt's points were great.

However I think we should put things in perspective, England are the second best test playing nation, behind possibly the best side in the history of the game.

Now say or think what you like the success England have had over the past few years have been in the main due to continuity of selection. Plus the fact that they have been well coached and well led. During this time there have been times when certain players have had a rough trot or an individual poor game in a winning situation. Did we change the team because a player had a bad game in a winning cause?? No. Then why should the team be changed in view of players having a stinker against the worlds best side. It has been well documented in these threads before about players who got one game here and there and disappeared due to the rubbish selection policy.

During the recent run of success that England have had over recent years we have won in Pakistan, Sri Lanka (very rare these days), West Indies (first time in 30 odd years), and South Africa something that only the Aussies have done since readmission. Plus we have beaten all comers at home. On the basis of one result does this make England a bad team?? Again the answer is no.

I do agree that on form Collingwood should be in the 12 or 13 for Edgbaston, and it looks like it will be green so that will even negate Warne a little. In view of that it may well be worth while making a change to suit conditions but not for the sake of it.

I honestly do not believe that England have become a bad side overnight, and we know that we can bowl the convicts out twice. We also know they don't fancy Harmison or Flintoff too much. I fancy a lot of the bad reaction to the defeat at Lords was borne out of disappointment, both in the result and in the overall performance. In the main the batting was poor and the fielding abysmal.

I can see Ashley Giles' point he has copped a lot of abuse, if this had been couched as constructive criticism then i am sure he would have accepted it, but mindless comments like wheely bin etc being made, i am sure he has every right to be peed off.

[sufcintheprem]

I admit that when I suggested we should drop Giles, I was wrong. However, my point about Bell seems to be hanging around. Yes, he's playing against the best in the world but his problems seem to be mental not technical.