3rd Test

[Matt the Shrimp]

Well, that's the series gone, then.

Huge credit to Yousuf - a fabulous knock, and he truly is back to his best. 163 n.o., ably supported by Kamran Akmal with 81 n.o.... and with Inzy supposedly padded up in the pavillion, his wrist having recovered from a bruising encounter with Steve Harmison last night.

At 392/5 with Inzy (in effect) the next man in... I'd say we're looking well and truly screwed in this test. We'll be lucky to force the draw in this test match, which would mean a series defeat.

And that, it would seem, is because our batting simply hasn't been good enough.

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Hey ho,

Matt

[canveyshrimper]

An expensive drop by Freddie when he dropped Yousuf yesterday. Catches win matches blah, blah! http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Although Trescothick, Bell & KP have hit tons, there has not been any consistency or big partnerships. Also not helped by getting in a winning position at Multan, and blowing it.

We will be lucky to get a draw in this one.

[C C Csiders]

Not good is it? The toughest part of the winter still to come after the New Year. http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

There is a lot of hard work to do. There may have been some post-Ashes resting on laurels. This could be a wake-up call, to get them moving in the right direction again.

[canveyshrimper]

I don't think that there is a post Ashes hangover, losing Vaughan prior to the first test did not help, and our age old problem of not having a real world class spinner.

India will be tougher than Pakistan, as they rarely lose test series in their own back yard.

Lets just hope it is indeed a wake up call.

[Hong Kong Blue]

England should have won this series. They got themselves in a position in Multan where they should have gone 1-0 up and from that position it should have been possible to grind out consecutive draws. That we didn't win in Multan was because the batsmen failed, which appears to be the problem here as well. The batsmen haven't been helped by a ridiculous schedule which didn't give them nearly enough time out in the middle before the series started.

England have a world class spinner: Ashely Giles. Its no coincedence that with him injured Pakistan have piled on the runs.

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ Dec. 02 2005,04:24)]England should have won this series. They got themselves in a position in Multan where they should have gone 1-0 up and from that position it should have been possible to grind out consecutive draws. That we didn't win in Multan was because the batsmen failed, which appears to be the problem here as well. The batsmen haven't been helped by a ridiculous schedule which didn't give them nearly enough time out in the middle before the series started.

England have a world class spinner: Ashely Giles. Its no coincedence that with him injured Pakistan have piled on the runs.
Agree mostly with what you say apart from the bit about Giles. I am not sure Ashley Giles, world class bowler belong in the same sentence. He has been a great servant to England and never lets the side down, but if you compare him to the likes of Warne, MacGill, Harbajan, Kumble, Kaneria, Murali & Vettori he is way down the list.

The other big miss has been the absence of Simon Jones, who many feel would have bowled well in Pakistan.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (canveyshrimper @ Dec. 02 2005,09:15)]The other big miss has been the absence of Simon Jones, who many feel would have bowled well in Pakistan.
Interestingly, Boycs was saying that the reason Shoaib is being a lot more potent than Harmy & Freddy is because the latter two bang it in hard... which does absolutely nothing on the benign puddings one finds in Pakistan; whilst Shoaib is a skiddier sort of bowler, which suits the surface better.

Simon Jones can do the skiddy stuff as well, so it's probably true to say that we have missed him.

But there is a bit of a fetish about reverse swing (largely because it was so effective in the Ashes) which does need to be dispelled... you only really get reverse with a Duke ball - which is what we use in England and what they used to use in Pakistan whilst Wasim / Waqar / Imran Khan were using reverse so effectively.

Then, 6 years ago, Pakistan switched to the Kookaburra ball, as used Down Under... which does not reverse. *Hence why the Aussie batsmen struggled with reverse so much in the summer - because it's not something they encounter in Sheffield Shield cricket...

We should therefore not fall into the trap of thinking that reverse is the way forward (as it were!) - because it's a weapon we won't have in our locker for the 06/07 Ashes in Oz.

We need to bat better - end of, really.

Matt

[canveyshrimper]

I think Mr Boycott is right as well. The Kookaburra ball does reverse, but nowhere near to the extent of the Duke ball. Also English conditions are more conducive to reverse & "normal" swing.

You are dead right about the batsman, they just have not produced the goods when it has really mattered. I can hear Sir Geoffrey going on about how important partnerships are in "creekitt", and again he will be right.

Lets hope for a better performance in the one dayers.

[C C Csiders]

The batsman we all, probably, had least faith with prior to the series, is the only one who has produced the goods in each Test - 70 in Multan, a century in Faisalabad, and now 60* at the close today.

Take a bow, Ian Bell.:)

I think we have a 50:50 chance now of saving this game. At 30/2, I thought it was more a 10% chance. Bell and Collingwood have performed well, and need to take this on a bit more tomorrow. Some application from KP and Freddie should see us to safety. If they don't - we won't.

[C C Csiders]

I think that we should recall Mark Butcher for the India series. He has the necessary patience to build an innings, which is what we have, largely, missed in Pakistan.

Our recent series wins have all been because of our bowling attack, rather than a powerful batting line-up, that has put mammoth scores on the board. Our big innings scores, have largely been as a result of 1 batsman getting a big score, rather than 2, 3 or 4 of them getting big runs.

Who to drop from the Pakistan touring party, is a difficult one. Ali Cook has gone for the experience alone, and I do not think he will go to India. I would bring Butcher in for Paul Collingwood, despite his 96 in the first innings here, and whatever he scores in this knock. He isn't a Test class batsman (although he might prove me wrong), he is a very decent 'bits and pieces' player, and excellent fielder, who I feel will be surplus to requirements in India.

Largely, I would keep the Pakistan touring squad for India, but bring Simon Jones (if fit) back, as is a certainty, and leave out James Anderson, as Plunkett has kept to his task very well in Pakistan's big score. Ashley Giles (if fit) should be retained, and Alex Loudon should be retained as a spinning alternative. However, Shaun Udal just hasn't worked. Off-spin, with the exception of the slightly freaky Murali, doesn't take wickets in test cricket anymore. We need an alternative, which isn't there, so I would go slow left arm, and bring in Min Patel for Udal. Patel took a lot of wickets fro Kent in the Championship last year. I think he is going to Warwicks next year. Patel and Udal are a similar age, which is a concern, with no youngster on the horizon except Monty Panesar, but he is an off-spinner.

Ramble over.

[Museshrimper]

Off spin works if the opponent's batsmen keep sweeping, as we found out with Shoaib Malik on Tuesday http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ Dec. 02 2005,15:03)]I think that we should recall Mark Butcher for the India series. He has the necessary patience to build an innings, which is what we have, largely, missed in Pakistan.

Our recent series wins have all been because of our bowling attack, rather than a powerful batting line-up, that has put mammoth scores on the board. Our big innings scores, have largely been as a result of 1 batsman getting a big score, rather than 2, 3 or 4 of them getting big runs.

Who to drop from the Pakistan touring party, is a difficult one. Ali Cook has gone for the experience alone, and I do not think he will go to India. I would bring Butcher in for Paul Collingwood, despite his 96 in the first innings here, and whatever he scores in this knock. He isn't a Test class batsman (although he might prove me wrong), he is a very decent 'bits and pieces' player, and excellent fielder, who I feel will be surplus to requirements in India.

Largely, I would keep the Pakistan touring squad for India, but bring Simon Jones (if fit) back, as is a certainty, and leave out James Anderson, as Plunkett has kept to his task very well in Pakistan's big score. Ashley Giles (if fit) should be retained, and Alex Loudon should be retained as a spinning alternative. However, Shaun Udal just hasn't worked. Off-spin, with the exception of the slightly freaky Murali, doesn't take wickets in test cricket anymore. We need an alternative, which isn't there, so I would go slow left arm, and bring in Min Patel for Udal. Patel took a lot of wickets fro Kent in the Championship last year. I think he is going to Warwicks next year. Patel and Udal are a similar age, which is a concern, with no youngster on the horizon except Monty Panesar, but he is an off-spinner.

Ramble over.
Lots of good points there.
I agree about Mark Butcher, however i think he still has fitness issues with the wrist problem he has and will need or has had another op, which may put him out of contention for India, although the tour is in March.

Simon Jones for James Anderson & stick with Liam Plunkett, who showed plenty of gumption and a bit of stickability with the bat.

Giles as always performs manfully and the Udal experiment has not worked, although he has done his best. To my mind Min Patel like Udal is the wrong age. I advocated Monty Panesar before and would do so again, although his batting is no great shakes and by all accounts his fielding is woeful. Graeme Swann would also get a vote from me, as a finger spinner he certainly gives it a tweak, and is good bat and field, in the mould that Fletcher likes, although Mr Swann upset Fletcher in South Africa with his attitude. Unfortunately the cupboard is pretty bare as far as English spinners goes and has been for over 25 years.

Alex Loudon & Ali Cook can go back to the academy and progress on that tour, i think Cook is ready to play test cricket and if Strauus or Trescothick get injured or lose form next summer then he will be in. Not sure about Loudon for test cricket, but i think he will get a call for the one day side soon.

The basis of all big innings scores is always one batsman filling his boots aided with 3 or 4 50 plus scores from his colleagues. We can console ourselves to a degree that England made all the running in Multan to win the test, should have won, but snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Pakistan let alone India is not the easiest place to win, so lets hope for a better one day effort, and also when they go to India in the new year.

My ramble done.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Not sure about Butcher. What about Fat-boy Key - was he dropped with undue alacrity? Again, he's another innings builder...

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[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Dec. 02 2005,16:28)]Not sure about Butcher. *What about Fat-boy Key - was he dropped with undue alacrity? *Again, he's another innings builder...

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Not for me.

I think it may be a degree of prejudice on my part though, as he just doesn't look the part.

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ Dec. 02 2005,16:34)]
Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Dec. 02 2005,16:28)]Not sure about Butcher. *What about Fat-boy Key - was he dropped with undue alacrity? *Again, he's another innings builder...

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Not for me.

I think it may be a degree of prejudice on my part though, as he just doesn't look the part.
I think Rob Key is a good player, but it maybe that Owais Shah & Ed Joyce may have overtaken him in the middle order & Ali Cook as opener.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ Dec. 02 2005,16:34)]
Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Dec. 02 2005,16:28)]Not sure about Butcher. *What about Fat-boy Key - was he dropped with undue alacrity? *Again, he's another innings builder...

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Not for me.

I think it may be a degree of prejudice on my part though, as he just doesn't look the part.
I know what you mean... I mean, he makes the likes of Inzy or Gatting look like athletic paragons...

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I am reminded of Bob Willis talking about an amazing catch that Gatt took against Australia (Egbaston 81, I think) and says that no one could believe how quickly Gatt had got down to the ball...

"... must have thought it was a bread roll..."

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[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Dec. 02 2005,16:47)]
Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ Dec. 02 2005,16:34)]
Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Dec. 02 2005,16:28)]Not sure about Butcher. *What about Fat-boy Key - was he dropped with undue alacrity? *Again, he's another innings builder...

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Not for me.

I think it may be a degree of prejudice on my part though, as he just doesn't look the part.
I know what you mean... I mean, he makes the likes of Inzy or Gatting look like athletic paragons...

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/oops.gif

I am reminded of Bob Willis talking about an amazing catch that Gatt took against Australia (Egbaston 81, I think) and says that no one could believe how quickly Gatt had got down to the ball...

"... must have thought it was a bread roll..."

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It would have only interested Gatt if there was a big slab of cheddar in it and covered in Branston pickle. http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[Hong Kong Blue]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Dec. 02 2005,16:47)]
Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ Dec. 02 2005,16:34)]
Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Dec. 02 2005,16:28)]Not sure about Butcher. *What about Fat-boy Key - was he dropped with undue alacrity? *Again, he's another innings builder...

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Not for me.

I think it may be a degree of prejudice on my part though, as he just doesn't look the part.
I know what you mean... I mean, he makes the likes of Inzy or Gatting look like athletic paragons...

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/oops.gif

I am reminded of Bob Willis talking about an amazing catch that Gatt took against Australia (Egbaston 81, I think) and says that no one could believe how quickly Gatt had got down to the ball...

"... must have thought it was a bread roll..."

http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Oh come on.

Key is actually a lot better athlete than most are willing to credit him. I would suggest that he is fitter than either Inzy or Gatting and almost certainly fitter than most making cheap jibes about his size.

You can't be that unfit if you can bat long enough to make a test match double century (something i think only Trescothick of the current team has achieved). If you want to talk about Key and weight, talk about the weight of runs he scores in county cricket: he's probably the most prolific English batsman over the last couple of years.

You may also want to have a look at who has been the best batsman this series by a country mile - but if Inzy was English he'd probably have been hounded out of the team because he looked different - the "Crouch effect".

[Matt the Shrimp]

Blimey... that's me told!!

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[Museshrimper]

4 wickets in 19 balls after lunch, after surviving first session http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Museshrimper]

Finished, 248 all out, lost by innings and 100 runs, 2-0 series win for Pakistan.
P1ss poor batting on our part in this series http://www.shrimperzone.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Hong Kong Blue]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Dec. 03 2005,00:51)]Blimey... that's me told!!

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I contemplated giving you a lecture on libel, but thought better!

[Bluesmanager]

Joes'll be back for India, he's starting full speed bowling tommorow according to the Mail on Sunday.