Old Trafford Test - Win or Lose?

[Pubey]

Will we win or lose this? it's going to be close!

[Yorkshire Blue]

I'd go for England, but its a lot closer than it should be. England allowed the Windies back into this with their second innings collapse, instead of kicking them when they were down we allowed Darren Sammy to take a 7 wicket haul. I like Sammy and think in time he'll be a decent player, but I'm struggling to think of a worse bowler to have taken 7 wickets in a test innings (Michael Clarke took 6 wickets for about 12 on a bunsen in India)

[C C Csiders]

England will probably wrap things up before lunch. However, if Chanderpaul and Ramdin add another 70 or so, things could get very close.

[Ailsa Road Shrimper]

Anyone else hoping for a West Indies victory? I'd like to see it for:

a. A world record 4th innings run chase
b. Series would be 1-1 with one game to play
c. West Indies cricket needs it
d. World Cricket needs it

[canveyshrimper]

I'd go for England, but its a lot closer than it should be. England allowed the Windies back into this with their second innings collapse, instead of kicking them when they were down we allowed Darren Sammy to take a 7 wicket haul. I like Sammy and think in time he'll be a decent player, but I'm struggling to think of a worse bowler to have taken 7 wickets in a test innings (Michael Clarke took 6 wickets for about 12 on a bunsen in India)

I have an idea that both Allan Border & Simon Katich have both recorded 7 fers in Test cricket.

[C C Csiders]

Anyone else hoping for a West Indies victory? I'd like to see it for:

a. A world record 4th innings run chase
b. Series would be 1-1 with one game to play
c. West Indies cricket needs it
d. World Cricket needs it

Go and live in Jamaica then.;)

[Yorkshire Blue]

I have an idea that both Allan Border & Simon Katich have both recorded 7 fers in Test cricket.

Good call on Border. That was on the first day of a test, and it was against the mighty WIndies of the 80s. :confused:

According to cricinfo (now owned by ESPN) Katich only ever got a 6-fer and that was against Zimbabwe, post Flowers.

[Yorkshire Blue]

Anyone else hoping for a West Indies victory? I'd like to see it for:

a. A world record 4th innings run chase
b. Series would be 1-1 with one game to play
c. West Indies cricket needs it
d. World Cricket needs it

I'd love to see a strong West Indies team again and world cricket needs a strong West Indies, but winning this one won't make the West Indies a strong team all of a sudden, it will just paper over the cracks.

[canveyshrimper]

Good call on Border. That was on the first day of a test, and it was against the mighty WIndies of the 80s. :confused:

According to cricinfo (now owned by ESPN) Katich only ever got a 6-fer and that was against Zimbabwe, post Flowers.

I wasn't sure about Katich, cheers.

[canveyshrimper]

I'd love to see a strong West Indies team again and world cricket needs a strong West Indies, but winning this one won't make the West Indies a strong team all of a sudden, it will just paper over the cracks.

I have to agree that world cricket truly needs a strong West Indies, but as YB rightly points out a win here will not make them a good side let alone a great one. Truth to be told Chanderpaul apart, plus the promise of Bravo, Ramdin & Sammy this team is woeful, I can't recall a worse fielding side ever. Until the various federations that make up the West Indies board pull in the right direction, and some money is invested, the situation will not change.

[SUFC_Al]

Just bowled them out for 394, only 61 behind the required total, which is quite achievement in itself.

Panesar took 10 wickets in the match.

[Matt the Shrimp]

we allowed Darren Sammy to take a 7 wicket haul. I like Sammy and think in time he'll be a decent player, but I'm struggling to think of a worse bowler to have taken 7 wickets in a test innings
Harsh, Cousin Weir. What the telly won't show you (but what I saw first hand in Durham) is that Sammy bowls it at a decent length and gets lot of movement off the seam and in the air. It may look pedestrian, but then isn't that what we said a few years ago about Matthew Hoggard (and are still saying about Ryan Sidebottom)...

:confused:

[C C Csiders]

Happily a fit again Matthew Hoggard replaces Liam Plunkett in the only change for Friday's Fourth Test.

Strauss will have to score some runs, I would have thought.

[Matt the Shrimp]

Truth to be told Chanderpaul apart, plus the promise of Bravo, Ramdin & Sammy this team is woeful, I can't recall a worse fielding side ever.
Harsh, but probably fair - although I like Jerome Taylor. He has a very fluid action which will serve him well in his career and won't be hard on his body (contrast, say, Sid Lawrence's bone-jarring action or Craig White pretending to be Thommo - neither action was going to last very long before injury set in), and if he could learn some guile - there is a kid who really ought to be getting some county cricket behind him - he could be a very useful bowler indeed. Malcolm Marshall was never the largest guy physically, but he was a beast to play against. No reason why Taylor couldn't go the same way.

If Morton could sort his temperament out, he has the skills to go all the way; Gayle is probably beyond redemption now, one suspects.

Those aside, however, and I agree with the overall assessment as to the mediocrity of this Windies side...

:(

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Daren Powell seems to have the right make-up as well. Mikey Holding is always praising him, saying that he is prepared to listen and learn.

[Yorkshire Blue]

Harsh, Cousin Weir. What the telly won't show you (but what I saw first hand in Durham) is that Sammy bowls it at a decent length and gets lot of movement off the seam and in the air. It may look pedestrian, but then isn't that what we said a few years ago about Matthew Hoggard (and are still saying about Ryan Sidebottom)...

:confused:

I like him and think he'll develop nicely, but I really don't think he should be taking 7 wicket hauls in test cricket at this moment in time. Taking 7 wickets in a test is a pretty exclusive club.

When Hoggard burst onto the scene as a youngster (IIRC he was picked by Ray Illingworth on the back of a decent spell in a one-day game for Yorks), he bowled about 82-84mph, which is a fair enough pace, but he also bowled a 'heavy ball' and had that ability to hit the splice of the bat.

Hoggard was criticised for being pedestrian at the start of the 2002 Ashes down under and it was a fair criticism. He'd lost the zip, was bowling mid-70s the ball was not swinging and he didn't have enough pace to prevent Hayden batting outside of his crease and hitting him to all parts of Brisbane and Adelaide. However following an indepth motivational talk from yours truly (and some work at the Academy), he recovered that zip in his bowling, bounced back at Sydney and was instrumental in England following up the disappointment of losing the 2002 Ashes 4-0 by helping us win the 2003 Ashes, 1-0.

Whilst Sammy bowls a good line for English conditions and gets good movement, at the moment, he lacks sufficient pace and bounce to be picking up 7 wicket hauls at test level. McGrath may have lost his pace in later years, but he still had that bounce. Pollock in contrast still had the same McGrath like accuracy but lost a bit of zip in terms of both pace and bounce and so his decline was more marked. Talking of Pollock, his best figures were 7-87 and I don't think Sammy is anywhere near the bowler that Pollock was.

[C C Csiders]

Intersting that three Shrimpers legends (Collymore, Sammy and Edwards) made up three-fifths of the Windies bowling attack.

[Yorkshire Blue]

Harsh, but probably fair - although I like Jerome Taylor. He has a very fluid action which will serve him well in his career and won't be hard on his body (contrast, say, Sid Lawrence's bone-jarring action or Craig White pretending to be Thommo - neither action was going to last very long before injury set in), or Andrew Flintoff **sob, sob**



and if he could learn some guile - there is a kid who really ought to be getting some county cricket behind him There is about a dozen WIndies players this could apply to. What a shame that our counties keep on picking Haydens, Husseys, Jacques etc, and helping out the Convicts when they need no help, and letting all that Caribbean talent remain unfulfilled. If Jerome Taylor, Tino Best, Jermain Lawson, Daren Powell, Fidel Edwards, Ravi Rampaul etc all had two full seasons of county cricket under their belt I'm sure the Windies' bowling attack would look a lot more polished. I suppose they would also have benefitted from a longer tour, playing more first class games outside the tests.

[Yorkshire Blue]

Intersting that three Shrimpers legends (Collymore, Sammy and Edwards) made up three-fifths of the Windies bowling attack.

Four. Taylor is a Southend legend as well.

I'd rather Powell than Edwards, Best over Bravo. Lawson can be sub.

[Matt the Shrimp]

However following an indepth motivational talk from yours truly (and some work at the Academy)
Huh...? So, you got to have an in-depth motivational talk with Matthew Hoggard? Eh?

:confused:

[Matt the Shrimp]

There is about a dozen WIndies players this could apply to. What a shame that our counties keep on picking Haydens, Husseys, Jacques etc, and helping out the Convicts when they need no help, and letting all that Caribbean talent remain unfulfilled. If Jerome Taylor, Tino Best, Jermain Lawson, Daren Powell, Fidel Edwards, Ravi Rampaul etc all had two full seasons of county cricket under their belt I'm sure the Windies' bowling attack would look a lot more polished. I suppose they would also have benefitted from a longer tour, playing more first class games outside the tests.

Hear, hear. I don't think it helped that the likes of Chris Gayle came over to play county cricket and promptly gave all counties the impression that West Indians were idle trouble-makers. It was from the mid-1990s that counties stopped picking Windies players for their sides, and I think the world game has suffered as a result. Windies cricket has certainly been hit.

Put Dwayne Bravo in the right county side and he would sweat blood for them; Ramdin certainly has a sane head tacked on his shoulders and Runako Morton was suprisingly modest and humble for one whom I presumed would have the swagger and braggadocio of the likes of Gayle.

I might not hanker for a return to the 80s, when we were ruthlessly crushed every time we played the likes of Richards, Holding, Greenidge, Ambrose and Walsh... but I do wish the Windies were more competitive than they are at the moment.

Matt

[Matt the Shrimp]

instrumental in England following up the disappointment of losing the 2002 Ashes 4-0 by helping us win the 2003 Ashes, 1-0.
I must have missed those Ashes... I'd presumed the '05 Ashes were the first we'd won or retained since 1987...?!

:thump:

[Yorkshire Blue]

Huh...? So, you got to have an in-depth motivational talk with Matthew Hoggard? Eh?

:confused:

Yes, England had just lost inside 4 days and I waited after the game to applaud the players. The Australians got a good reception from the Barmy Army, but the England players took some time to come out. Eventually the players came over and I ended up shaking Matthew Hoggard's hand. Time (and possibly alcohol) mean I can't necessarily remember my exact words, but the conversation went something like this:

Me: C'mon Hoggy!
Hoggy: C'mon!
Me: C'mon!
Hoggy: C'mon!
Me: C'mon!
Hoggy: C'mon!

whilst I continued to clasp hands in 'Mr Shakey Hands Man' style fashion.

Little did I know at the time that this would be the spur that would turn him from a dibbly-dobbler who wasn't getting it to dibbly-dobble, into one of the finest bowlers in the world.

Alas, I never got to speak to Robert Key in order to turn his career around, despite apparently bumping into him in numerous kebab shops around Australia.


Next: How my chance encounter with Michael Vaughan in Melbourne inspired him to centuries in the Boxing Day and New Year's tests.

[Yorkshire Blue]

I must have missed those Ashes... I'd presumed the '05 Ashes were the first we'd won or retained since 1987...?!

:thump:

Many people make the mistake of bunching the 2002-03 tour together as one tour. I prefer to use the English convention of calendar years. England therefore lost 4-0 in November and December 2002, but bounced back to regain the January 2003 Ashes with victory in Sydney.

[Matt the Shrimp]

LOL, you're on good form for a Monday, Matt.

:D

[Yorkshire Blue]

Later in the same tour as the one I met Matthew Hoggard in, I bumped into Michael Vaughan.

Bumped is probably the right word as, having endured a long day, I was not too steady on my feet this particular evening. I believe this particular encounter was in Melbourne, but at the time I was not too certain of my whereabouts - to the extent I doubt I even realised I was in the wrong hemisphere. I certainly seem to have been having some difficulty with time-zones, as I appear to have started drinking at closer to 10am, rather than 10pm on this particular occasion.

Despite England having lost the Ashes in a record breaking 11 days, spirits were raised (mostly to my lips) and we were enjoying some good banter with the Convicts. For so long as England kept losing, Australians loved coming up and talking to us. As soon as Australia had a bad day you couldn't find an Australian interested in cricket. Admittedly we had rather a small sample size for this, but a similar thing happened after we whopped them 32-31 in the rugby between the Adelaide and Brisbane tests ("me, rugby nah, I'm an Aussie Rules guy myself"), but I digress. I had somehow found myself propping up an Oirish theme bar, and England being 3-0 down the conversation had now gone back to the cricket when I slurred something about England not being all bad, we had Michael Vaughan who was fantastic.

The response wasn't to doubt it, but inform me that I could tell the man himself, who was standing about 5 yards away. And lo and behold, there was Michael Vaughan, superstar. Scores more runs (in a calendar year) than Tendulkar.

I staggered over and informed Michael that I thought he was great. I think I probably told him that I loved him and that he was my best mate as well. I then informed him that we'd composed a song in his honour. I probably then mentioned that Dermot Reeve had tried to nick it. I probably then called Dermot Reeve a ****. I don't recall Vaughan disagreeing with this statement, although before any tabloid journalists (Macintosh) pounce, I can't actually remember posing the question either. I think I asked Vaughan if he wanted me to sing our song. Such a question, like asking him about Freddy and a pedalo, caught him out a little, and in his naivety he said yes. Or else, more likely, I just started to sing it anyway. Anyway I'm sure such probing questions helped prepare him for the captaincy.

Anyway, the song is to the tune of Wonderwall and goes a little like this:

Today is going to be the day
That we are going to win the Ashes back
By now you should've somehow
Realised what you gotta do
I don't believe that anybody
Can play the way you do, Michael Vaughan

Backbeat the word is on the street
that Andy Bichel really got you out
I'm sure you've heard it all before
but Steve Bucknor gave you benefit of the doubt*
I don't believe that anybody
Can play the way you do, Michael Vaughan

And all the shots off Warne you hit are blinding
And you gave Glenn McGrath a proper hiding
There are many things that I would
Like to say to you
I don't know how

Because maybe
You're gonna be the one who saves us
And after all
You're our Michael Vaughan

*Andy Bichel had claimed a caught and bowled catch early on in Vaughan's majestic hundred at Adelaide, but it was ruled a bump ball. Vaughan actually chuckled at this line

Anyway, I (or possibly Vaughanie) then made some excuse to leave, but this seemed to do the trick, as Vaughan scored majestic centuries in the next two tests, to nearly inspire us to win in Melbourne and then win in Sydney. Chasing 90 odd to win in Melbourne, Harmison got them seriously rattled and dismissed Steve Waugh 3 times in an over, but Fozzie didn't appeal for one, next ball Nasser took a blinder of a catch off a no-ball and then the umpire failed to give a plumb lbw. By the end of the over Steve Waugh was backing away to leg like Peter Such in his prime. Then finally in Sydney, Vaughan scored another peach of a century and Andy Caddick routed them on a wearing pitch.

By the end of the tour, Vaughan was no.1 batsman in the world and England had the beating of Australia. The rest as they say is history.

[ldnfatso]

England to win for me with Monty taking 6 wickets and Harmison 4 wickets.;)

[shrimpled]

Strauss will have to score some runs, I would have thought.

He won't play in the one days so can go and find some form for middlesex before india arrive.