HMRC Winding Up Order

[North Wales Shrimper]

Hyde United (Blue Sq North) have been wound up by HMRC this afternoon after a final adjournment was denied (see link) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_conf/8272822.stm)

Together with Accrington Stanley also struggling (also subject to a Winding Up Order) it would appear that HMRC are getting tough with Football Clubs who can't pay their tax bills.

We are now a little over a month away from the High Court hearing which unless Uncle Ron gets his finger out will result in the end of SUFC.

All we hear is "It's not an issue and it will be paid...". Well that's what the board at Hyde (and to a lesser extent Accrington) have said and lets not forget Hyde are not the first club to be wound up by HMRC this year... :nope:

[Davros]

Muddy Mildred! http://www.striker3d.net/i/images/club/characters/static_eric.gif

[Beefy]

If HMRC wind us up they don't get their money. Obviously, that's the case with all winding up petitions, BUT if we've got proof that the money from Sainsburys is coming, even if it's going to be delayed again, then it really isn't in HMRC's interests to oppose another adjournment.

I don't know much about the Hyde case, but I don't think there's much in the way of direct comparison.

[The Flying Scotsman]

I think we'll pay it somehow, after all we just turned down £200k for Macca, and if we really needed the money we would have taken it.

[Bramble'sGoalieGloves]

Accrington owed hundreds of thousands (what I saw quoted in region of £300,000) we're a bigger club and how I understood it only owe bit over £60k...plus haven't seen King and Martin begging down the highstreet recently so can't see it being a problem

[The Flying Scotsman]

Accrington owed hundreds of thousands (what I saw quoted in region of £300,000) we're a bigger club and how I understood it only owe bit over £60k...plus haven't seen King and Martin begging down the highstreet recently so can't see it being a problem

I thought it was in the region of 600k.

[Beefy]

Yeah it's over £660k. We'll owe more than Accrington or Hyde. I don't think that makes us any more likely to be wound up though. Probably the opposite as long as we can show that we will be able to pay it off soon-ish.

[My Name Escapes Me]

Stand by for month of increasing hysteria on here as we get nearer and nearer our court date.
Not long before we start getting posts from people who have been told by a reliable source inside the club that we haven't got the funds to pay the HMRC.
Happy days.

[OldBlueLady]

Stand by for month of increasing hysteria on here as we get nearer and nearer our court date.
Not long before we start getting posts from people who have been told by a reliable source inside the club that we haven't got the funds to pay the HMRC.
Happy days.

And berating the Echo for their coverage again too no doubt.

[GodblessArthurRowley]

Stand by for month of increasing hysteria on here as we get nearer and nearer our court date.
Not long before we start getting posts from people who have been told by a reliable source inside the club that we haven't got the funds to pay the HMRC.
Happy days.

Funny you should say that as I have a very reliable source within the club(golf pal of Tillys) who reckons that the HMRC do indeed intend to wind-up SUFC.

[Rayleigh Weir]

I wouldn't let yourself get wound up by it...

[The Big Shrimp]

If HMRC wind us up they don't get their money. Obviously, that's the case with all winding up petitions, BUT if we've got proof that the money from Sainsburys is coming, even if it's going to be delayed again, then it really isn't in HMRC's interests to oppose another adjournment.

I don't know much about the Hyde case, but I don't think there's much in the way of direct comparison.

HMRC are not very friendly at the mo & I have lost customers who have thought that they would agree to payment plans & have been surprisingly stuffed. I have one I'm waiting to hear about that will be resolved either way by mid-October. For whatever relevance it has, I will report back when I hear back!

That said, I don't expect RM to let the club be wound up, so this is all pointless speculation!

[yogi bear up the cagire]

If Southend United get wound up, then Ron Martin would be wound up as well, as it is totally unconceivable that he would let the club fold.........he has FAR too much riding on it.
Anyway, I am just starting to enjoy my football and I seriously don't think I want to get diverted by another month of speculation about our off the field future.

[Southminster_Shrimper]

Stand by for month of increasing hysteria on here as we get nearer and nearer our court date.
Not long before we start getting posts from people who have been told by a reliable source inside the club that we haven't got the funds to pay the HMRC.
Happy days.

we havent....Sainsburys have. They just need to give it to the club......hopefully they arent paying in Nectar points else we will be in the poop

[Cricko]

As said before many many many many times, Sainsbury's will not release any monies until after the 7th of October when the altered plans hopefully get rubber stamped by Southend Council,so to me that is the squeaky bum day.

[Lord Football]

HMRC are not in the habit of winding businesses up, they would prefer they got back on their feet and paid the debt to the Exchequer.

Southend United are clearly a going concern, with assets. Therefore, a winding up order is unlikely as HMRC will hang out to get money owed to them. If they are wound up, then they stand to get a fraction of the debt. So it's not in the interest of the public purse.

Of course, if things are much worse than we are being told, then there may be trouble, but I'd be very surprised if that is the case.

[The Big Shrimp]

HMRC are not in the habit of winding businesses up, they would prefer they got back on their feet and paid the debt to the Exchequer.

Southend United are clearly a going concern, with assets. Therefore, a winding up order is unlikely as HMRC will hang out to get money owed to them. If they are wound up, then they stand to get a fraction of the debt. So it's not in the interest of the public purse.

Of course, if things are much worse than we are being told, then there may be trouble, but I'd be very surprised if that is the case.

So why do they do it? Even though they are no longer classed as preferential creditors, they still do it on a regular basis.

[Beefy]

They do it when they think there's no way that they will get the money back. They will get the money back from us so long as Sainsburys buy Roots Hall. It just might take some time.

If the sale of the ground doesn't go ahead then we're screwed though.

[fbm]

So why do they do it? Even though they are no longer classed as preferential creditors, they still do it on a regular basis.

Because otherwise they'd never get their money!

[Lord Football]

So why do they do it? Even though they are no longer classed as preferential creditors, they still do it on a regular basis.

They close down business who really cannot pay. Halifax Town being the prime example.

It's all to do with risk. If SUFC's books identify that at some point in the near future, they can pay, they wont close them down. They would rather take all the debt than just part. But they will take something as opposed to nothing, if that is needed.

They call it Debt Management as opposed to Debt Collection.

[Bob Cratchitt]

So it really does rest on Southend Council giving the go ahead for the altered plans or the HMRC agreeing to extend our stay of execution if they feel the plans may eventually get approved.

This is where I feel the transfer embargo posts really originates from, and that OP of that thread source or even the OP themselves misunderstood the full situation.

I wish that some Zoners would see that we are no mean safe and do need to look over our shoulder but we are not totally up ***** creek without a paddle. There is a glimmer of hope and with luck the situation will resolve itself.

Although I would like to see written assurances of where the money from the Stadium and ancillary income from the retail park are going.

[ldnfatso]

Surely, there should be enough money in Geoffrey Kings Gaffe Box (Similar to Gordon Ramsay's Swear Box) to pay HMRC.

[Blonde Shrimper]

HMRC will close businesses down who can't pay their tax bill. I worked for such a company and we owed less than SUFC. I've read comments on this subject for weeks now and the fact remains that we don't really know whether the bill will be paid or not - Ron Martin is the only one who does despite all the people who claim to have inside knowledge including a car park attendant who works at Roots Hall!!! We just have to wait for the dreaded date and see what happens.

[Mad Cyril]

I am not a businessman but my bet is that a couple of VIP Johnstone's Paint Trophy final tickets slipped to the right people at HMRC and this all goes away.

If you are reading this Ron and you need a fixer then I am happy to oblige as long as there is a place for me on the open top bus and I can hold the trophy.

[philtalkin]

So it really does rest on Southend Council giving the go ahead for the altered plans or the HMRC agreeing to extend our stay of execution if they feel the plans may eventually get approved.

This is where I feel the transfer embargo posts really originates from, and that OP of that thread source or even the OP themselves misunderstood the full situation.

I wish that some Zoners would see that we are no mean safe and do need to look over our shoulder but we are not totally up ***** creek without a paddle. There is a glimmer of hope and with luck the situation will resolve itself.

Although I would like to see written assurances of where the money from the Stadium and ancillary income from the retail park are going.

They are not relying on the plans being approved, nor are they relying on the funds coming in from Sainsburys.

I wish you (some zoners) could understand that the directors of the club are not praying and biting their nails in anticipation of the verdict. They have a contingency plan in place to avoid the club being wound up.

The club is quietly confident that everything will go according to plan, but if you believe that this is the 'be all and end all', then you are seriously misguided, scaremongering, or both.

The only concerns we should have is whether a new stadium, and everything that goes along with it, will generate enough income to help us become an established CCC team.

[Bob Cratchitt]

They are not relying on the plans being approved, nor are they relying on the funds coming in from Sainsburys.

I wish you (some zoners) could understand that the directors of the club are not praying and biting their nails in anticipation of the verdict. They have a contingency plan in place to avoid the club being wound up.

The club is quietly confident that everything will go according to plan, but if you believe that this is the 'be all and end all', then you are seriously misguided, scaremongering, or both.

The only concerns we should have is whether a new stadium, and everything that goes along with it, will generate enough income to help us become an established CCC team.

I bow down to your superior knowledge, just going on what Ron has said after the last hearing.

At the end of the day I hope they do have contingency plan, which does not involve selling off the squad or some other detrimental plan.

[mcnasty]

I bow down to your superior knowledge, just going on what Ron has said after the last hearing.

At the end of the day I hope they do have contingency plan, which does not involve selling off the squad or some other detrimental plan.


A chance for the SZFC to takeover the club ? Andee we have got our club-house and pitch !

[Mad Cyril]

At the end of the day I hope they do have contingency plan, which does not involve selling off the squad or some other detrimental plan.

I hope the contingency plan does not involve scratchcards.

[Bob Cratchitt]

A chance for the SZFC to takeover the club ? Andee we have got our club-house and pitch !

A cracking idea Kenneth, I will break open the piggy bank and raid the back of the settee, hopefully this will be enough. If not we can just build a Camp Bling II and squat on the land.

Cyril that would be totally dependent if Ron you got Derren Brown on board, after all he can do anything.

[Lester Bangs]

I wish you (some zoners) could understand that the directors of the club are not praying and biting their nails in anticipation of the verdict. They have a contingency plan in place to avoid the club being wound up.

In what form does this contingency plan take? The only thing i can think of is that they have a reserve somewhere to pay it. if this is the case why hasnt it been paid already?

[Gremlin]

In what form does this contingency plan take? The only thing i can think of is that they have a reserve somewhere to pay it. if this is the case why hasnt it been paid already?

Sssh! We're not supposed to talk about the warchest.

[Southend United 4eva]

In what form does this contingency plan take? The only thing i can think of is that they have a reserve somewhere to pay it. if this is the case why hasnt it been paid already?

Or perhaps they have a loan lined up, but would prefer not to incur the interest charges while it is still possible to get the dosh off Sainsburys?

[philtalkin]

In what form does this contingency plan take? The only thing i can think of is that they have a reserve somewhere to pay it. if this is the case why hasnt it been paid already?

I cannot give specifics, but i will give you a clue.

Ron is a metal detector enthusiast.

[blue shrimp]

Or perhaps they have a loan lined up, but would prefer not to incur the interest charges while it is still possible to get the dosh off Sainsburys?

Another loan?..Possibly charged at 20%...Easy money.

[My Name Escapes Me]

As said before many many many many times, Sainsbury's will not release any monies until after the 7th of October when the altered plans hopefully get rubber stamped by Southend Council,so to me that is the squeaky bum day.

so more than once then?:whistling:

[BarnaBlue]

As said before many many many many times, Sainsbury's will not release any monies until after the 7th of October when the altered plans hopefully get rubber stamped by Southend Council,so to me that is the squeaky bum day.

That's the day after my (ahem)59th birthday and would be the best present that I or indeed any other SUFC supporter could possible receive.:clap:

[RichieC]

That's the day after my (ahem)59th birthday and would be the best present that I or indeed any other SUFC supporter could possible receive.:clap:

Gained a year have you?

[Smiffy]

Roll on Wednesday then.

Come on SBC, don't make this any harder than it already has been. We deserve a bit of good fortune!

Let's get this show on the road.

8,000th post. Go me, I need to get out more!

[C C Csiders]

In what form does this contingency plan take? The only thing i can think of is that they have a reserve somewhere to pay it. if this is the case why hasnt it been paid already?

Not overly sure that Ian Joyce will have the necessary cash.

[mfurok]

That's the day after my (ahem)59th birthday and would be the best present that I or indeed any other SUFC supporter could possible receive.:clap:

No it wouldn't.

[mfurok]

Gained a year have you?

Counting was never his strong point.

[My Name Escapes Me]

Hoping someone on here can answer this ...
Assuming we don't pay the tax bill before we're due back in court, is it down to the judge to decide whether we go into administration or liquidation or do HMRC have a say?
(I think I'm right in saying that if we go into administration there is still hope, but if it's liquidation that's it.)

[My Name Escapes Me]

link to an interesting website on football club finances
didn't realise Rochdale also subject of HMRC winding-up order

http://footballmanagement.wordpress.com/

[GodblessArthurRowley]

Silence from Uncle Ron may be golden it may also mean we are up **** creek without a paddle, I'm with uncle Ron until I see next seasons fixtures and we are playing Clapton away in the Essex senior league.Its touch and go I think.

[Pubey]

I'm with uncle Ron until I see next seasons fixtures and we are playing Clapton away in the Essex senior league.Its touch and go I think.

If that ever happened I think I'd cry tears from heaven

[shrimpereeee]

Hoping someone on here can answer this ...
Assuming we don't pay the tax bill before we're due back in court, is it down to the judge to decide whether we go into administration or liquidation or do HMRC have a say?
(I think I'm right in saying that if we go into administration there is still hope, but if it's liquidation that's it.)

Unless there is an application by a director or creditor for an administration order which is heard before the return date for the hearing of the winding up petition the court will liquidate the company in the event that the tax is due and an agreement can't be reached with the Revenue.

If there is an application for an administration order this will only succeed in the event that administration will achieve a better outcome for the company and creditors than a winding up. Such an application needs to be made with the support of an insolvency practitioner and if successful creates a moratorium which protects it from creditors whilst it continues to trade...and sold.

[GodblessArthurRowley]

Just thinking that wouldn't it be ironic if the club went tits up under Uncle Ron, after he has led through the wilderness,sorting out the financial mess, to the edge of a new stadium, into the championship,cup finals,promotions etc.
When we have survived the Vic years, the Anton Johnson years, and the years when we had 1500 turn up for games.

[grassroots]

Just thinking that wouldn't it be ironic if the club went tits up under Uncle Ron, after he has led through the wilderness,sorting out the financial mess, to the edge of a new stadium, into the championship,cup finals,promotions etc.
When we have survived the Vic years, the Anton Johnson years, and the years when we had 1500 turn up for games.

I'm afraid I wont believe RM has sorted out 'the financial mess' until (a) in 5 years time, we are happily ensconced in FF with a 'steady stream' of new revenues and NO debts or (b) still playing at Roots Hall in 5 years time - again with no debts!

I just get the feeling we are living off borrowed money on borrowed time. I just hope I am wrong!

[mattytheshrimper]

some one made a good point in another thread. things are better than ever for us really, we are a well established league 1 club. With a great average attendence of approx 8k and no players being signed in god knows how long so how are things so bad???

you can blame the wages (when they are paid) but our squad is paper thin and literally all decent championship players have all gone so sorry that excuse has to be passed for me that we are playing championship players.

the high profile games against chelsea last year didn't do anything for us?

i do grow bored of the excuses made from the board and its just so worrying that things don't look like getting better.

its a miracle that tilly has put up with it even more amazing is that we are mid table. i've said it before that if we finish in the top 10 this year i think it would be one of tilly's biggest achievments.

i think rm is a genuis to pull the wool over everyones eyes and carry on to get on with it.

i suppose you could say i have by no way rm's biggest fan i guess he lost any respect i had for him when are 4 home games this season my season ticket still wasn't working so whilst on my AGAIN to the ticket office i saw rm and gave him a piece of my mind but all he did was look and me and carry on driving through the car park.

I'm sure if i asked about the stadium he would have had all the time in the world!

i do think ron will be found out eventually. although one thing is deffinate. he will be out there on the pitch when we draw man u, liverpool etc waving his blue and white scarfs even though half the stadium would be filled with day trippers. why not do that against bristol rovers, oldham etc when attendances will not be so high and there will be loyal supporters there.

rant over.

[Pubey]

some one made a good point in another thread. things are better than ever for us really, we are a well established league 1 club. With a great average attendence of approx 8k and no players being signed in god knows how long so how are things so bad???

you can blame the wages (when they are paid) but our squad is paper thin and literally all decent championship players have all gone so sorry that excuse has to be passed for me that we are playing championship players.

the high profile games against chelsea last year didn't do anything for us?

i do grow bored of the excuses made from the board and its just so worrying that things don't look like getting better.

its a miracle that tilly has put up with it even more amazing is that we are mid table. i've said it before that if we finish in the top 10 this year i think it would be one of tilly's biggest achievments.

i think rm is a genuis to pull the wool over everyones eyes and carry on to get on with it.

i suppose you could say i have by no way rm's biggest fan i guess he lost any respect i had for him when are 4 home games this season my season ticket still wasn't working so whilst on my AGAIN to the ticket office i saw rm and gave him a piece of my mind but all he did was look and me and carry on driving through the car park.

I'm sure if i asked about the stadium he would have had all the time in the world!

i do think ron will be found out eventually. although one thing is deffinate. he will be out there on the pitch when we draw man u, liverpool etc waving his blue and white scarfs even though half the stadium would be filled with day trippers. why not do that against bristol rovers, oldham etc when attendances will not be so high and there will be loyal supporters there.

rant over.
I thought you only went to Roots Hall for a sing-song?

[EastStandBlue]

some one made a good point in another thread. things are better than ever for us really, we are a well established league 1 club. With a great average attendence of approx 8k and no players being signed in god knows how long so how are things so bad???


We'll ignore the fact that some players have been huge flops and cost us dearly... They've been discussed to death now.

Spiralling legal costs in getting the Stadium project of the ground. They're a necessary evil, but hugely expensive. I'm guessing we've spent in excess of £1m purely on legal costs since being granted initial Planning Permission... Money well spent should we have a shiny new stadium to sit in.

That big thing that seems to be making it difficult for any business to survive in. The Recession. Football is a business, don't confuse it with anything else, and as a business it will struggle like any other business... If anything, football clubs are more fragile because of their huge running costs in comparison.

Look around, the only clubs actually buying more than a few players are those with wealthy backers that are immune to any downturn.

[Mick]

I'm guessing we've spent in excess of £1m purely on legal costs since being granted initial Planning Permission... Money well spent should we have a shiny new stadium to sit in.



Could you give me some sort of idea on what we have spent £1m purely on legal costs since being granted planning permission. Sounds extraordinary to me.

[EastStandBlue]

Well, we hired a QC for the majority of the work who don't come cheap at all... Then we have the costs of contracts with the council, amended plans to house the Casino and Health Club, written contracts for each of the Retail Outlet's that have been leased... This is without the upcoming CPO's which will cost a great deal.

[united we stand]

Well, we hired a QC for the majority of the work who don't come cheap at all... Then we have the costs of contracts with the council, amended plans to house the Casino and Health Club, written contracts for each of the Retail Outlet's that have been leased... This is without the upcoming CPO's which will cost a great deal.

we are also paying all of the councils legal costs

[ElstreeBlue]

Could you give me some sort of idea on what we have spent £1m purely on legal costs since being granted planning permission. Sounds extraordinary to me.

and why has the club been paying for that cost since the club will be a mere tenant at the new complex? Surely the cost should have been paid for by the legal entity that will own the land?

[blue shrimp]

and why has the club been paying for that cost since the club will be a mere tenant at the new complex? Surely the cost should have been paid for by the legal entity that will own the land?

Southend United Football Club..........Equals cash cow.

[Benfleet Blue]

We'll ignore the fact that some players have been huge flops and cost us dearly... They've been discussed to death now.

Spiralling legal costs in getting the Stadium project of the ground. They're a necessary evil, but hugely expensive. I'm guessing we've spent in excess of £1m purely on legal costs since being granted initial Planning Permission... Money well spent should we have a shiny new stadium to sit in.

That big thing that seems to be making it difficult for any business to survive in. The Recession. Football is a business, don't confuse it with anything else, and as a business it will struggle like any other business... If anything, football clubs are more fragile because of their huge running costs in comparison.

Look around, the only clubs actually buying more than a few players are those with wealthy backers that are immune to any downturn.

But why would SUFC foot the legal bills when a) we don't have any funds or collateral or own the current stadium, nor even the training facility and b) the new stadium won't belong to SUFC, it will be RM's Company's.

[mattytheshrimper]

I thought you only went to Roots Hall for a sing-song?

singing part of the fun for me mate, from your previous comments i understand you aren't interested in it and thats fine however i believe its true what i had said and i just think theres so many people on here stupid enough to believe it. i would love to sit and there be happy happy happy all the time but its called being realistic. i don't go to the game and boo everyone all day long because they are doing what they can and as i have always said how tilly has done so well without buying any players is brilliant.

however so many people are fooled by ron by the sounds of it you to. if you've got a problem as you seem to have some out and say it.

[mattytheshrimper]

That big thing that seems to be making it difficult for any business to survive in. The Recession. Football is a business, don't confuse it with anything else, and as a business it will struggle like any other business... If anything, football clubs are more fragile because of their huge running costs in comparison.

Look around, the only clubs actually buying more than a few players are those with wealthy backers that are immune to any downturn.

completely agree with the recession buisness however the spending stopped before that and i have said previously i believe we have good support and gates are great so compared to 4 or 5 years ago when we were getting 5k or lower we should be better off.

legal costs for the stadium which have been going on for years and years yet have got us no where. i guess i havn't got a lot of faith in the stadium tbh however i do want us to get one as i feel we simply have to.

however rons the missing link for me spoken to him several times and just not convinced at all.

people will say im being negative i say its realistic. not sure what it will take for some people to be the same.

[Lancashire shrimper]

Hyde United (Blue Sq North) have been wound up by HMRC this afternoon after a final adjournment was denied (see link) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_conf/8272822.stm)

Together with Accrington Stanley also struggling (also subject to a Winding Up Order) it would appear that HMRC are getting tough with Football Clubs who can't pay their tax bills.

We are now a little over a month away from the High Court hearing which unless Uncle Ron gets his finger out will result in the end of SUFC.

All we hear is "It's not an issue and it will be paid...". Well that's what the board at Hyde (and to a lesser extent Accrington) have said and lets not forget Hyde are not the first club to be wound up by HMRC this year... :nope:

Hyde escaped the winding up order by paying off their tax bill which means that Neil Tolson still has a job :)

http://www.tamesideadvertiser.co.uk/sport/football/s/1158002_high_court_victory_for_hyde_united

Accy Stanley look like they've sorted themselves out too

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/accringtonstanley/news/4680773.Accrington_Stanley_near_end_to_winding_up_ threat/?ref=rss

Blackburn and Burnley recently played benefit matches for them donating all the gate receipts. Bury and Rochdale have had collection buckets outside their grounds on match days in support. Along with their recent upturn in form they'll be able to pay off their tax bill too.

'Some say' things come in threes. It doubt it will happen to Southend either. I believe the club has invested so much into FF, and the value it will bring once complete that RM won't let a tax bill for half a million thwart progress into building the new stadium.

[EastStandBlue]

completely agree with the recession buisness however the spending stopped before that and i have said previously i believe we have good support and gates are great so compared to 4 or 5 years ago when we were getting 5k or lower we should be better off.

legal costs for the stadium which have been going on for years and years yet have got us no where. i guess i havn't got a lot of faith in the stadium tbh however i do want us to get one as i feel we simply have to.

however rons the missing link for me spoken to him several times and just not convinced at all.

people will say im being negative i say its realistic. not sure what it will take for some people to be the same.

A recession has been looming for some time... The financial cycle is pretty predictable and I was certainly taught in my A-Level Business Studies to expect a recession in the near future, and that was 4 years ago now. Spending has slowly declined, but we still spent a reasonable amount four years ago, bringing in the likes of Peter Clarke and *spit* Richie Foran on sizeable fees with high wages. Gates might be bigger than they were 4/5 years ago, but the wages we pay are too.

I'm not saying Ron Martin is the Messiah and he'll lead us to the promised land... All I'm saying is that some people on here are up in arms demanding to see where the Many Millions have gone, when it's quite clear if you look deeply enough just where our money has been spent.

[Bielzibubz]

Well, we hired a QC for the majority of the work who don't come cheap at all... Then we have the costs of contracts with the council, amended plans to house the Casino and Health Club, written contracts for each of the Retail Outlet's that have been leased... This is without the upcoming CPO's which will cost a great deal.

As I've said before, CPO's aren't an option imo. Yes they are there if needed but typically they take between 12 to 15 months to complete from being served to eviction once all the appeals processes have been exhausted. That sort of delay would undoubtedly put the kybosh on any plans that have already been approved and I very much doubt that we could afford to even go down that route bearing in mind the costs involved in retaining the legal team, contractors etc etc. CPO's are a great bargaining tool when used as a minor threat to whatever obstacle is in your way and usually do the trick because don't forget that should a CPO be enforced the owner will only get the agreed market value of the building at the time of enforcement and no where near what he's holding out for, what the property is worth after that 12 to 15 months of appeals or what he would have been initially offered by the person or company serving the CPO, which is usually somewhere in the region of 20-25% above the current market value.

All comes down to who's got the biggest nads and who blinks first. My monies on RM

[TJC]

What is the actual date we are due back in court? It must be just days away now.
Not sure what silence from the club means. Can only be one of two things:

1) Its not news and non issue - just a formality
2) Keeping quite until we go booooom!

With the talksport mention of our plight this morning (over in the chit chat forum) the nerves are being to jangle!
Will we ever play a home game again???

[Smiffy]

What is the actual date we are due back in court? It must be just days away now.
Not sure what silence from the club means. Can only be one of two things:

1) Its not news and non issue - just a formality
2) Keeping quite until we go booooom!

With the talksport mention of our plight this morning (over in the chit chat forum) the nerves are being to jangle!
Will we ever play a home game again???

Next Wednesday (28th Oct)

Unless it's been changed...

[turkishm]

Sorry if this seems a bit simplistic, but the money that is owed to the Inland Revenue is tax stopped at source by the club on the players wages, that the club are having trouble coming up with now.Is this the money that is owed, or have i got that wrong.

[Mad Cyril]

I'm not a businessman but is this 'wind up' in the Jeremy Beadle sense or is it something we should be worried about?

[OldBlueLady]

Half term........is anyone allowed to go?

[Smiffy]

Half term........is anyone allowed to go?

I think anyone can go. But I'm sure you need to give written notice prior to the hearing.

Best speak to the court themselves.

[Jam_Man]

Will we ever play a home game again???

I dont get this foreboding doom that the club is going to disappear.

How many clubs has that ever happened to?

The owners are not going to let that happen. We are in a bit of poop but I bet my house that come August next year we will still be here.....

[Shrimpero]

I dont get this foreboding doom that the club is going to disappear.

How many clubs has that ever happened to?

The owners are not going to let that happen. We are in a bit of poop but I bet my house that come August next year we will still be here.....

Fingers crossed for the club and your house, JM ... as Pete Wylie once said, "you've got to hope for the best, it's the best you can hope for..."

(Wah - 'The Story Of The Blues, parts 1 & 2)

[canveyshrimper]

I dont get this foreboding doom that the club is going to disappear.

How many clubs has that ever happened to?

The owners are not going to let that happen. We are in a bit of poop but I bet my house that come August next year we will still be here.....

Accrington & Maidstone are two that I can remember, but there's been many more.

I've said it before, I truly believe there are some members of this board who want the club to go tits up in order to say "I told you so" about Ron Martin.

And Jam Man I'll bet your house that we'll still be in business come next August.

[blue shrimp]

Accrington & Maidstone are two that I can remember, but there's been many more.

I've said it before, I truly believe there are some members of this board who want the club to go tits up in order to say "I told you so" about Ron Martin.

And Jam Man I'll bet your house that we'll still be in business come next August.


Why would any fan want the club to close? Just so they could say "i told you so"......I 100% disagree completely...Currently the club are days away from shutting up shop...The money will we all hope be paid or at least some deal will be struck...At the very best its poor financial management.

[Maldon Blues]

Accrington & Maidstone are two that I can remember, but there's been many more.
.

Aldershot.

[steveo]

...At the very best its poor financial management.

Or a complete lack of money. Ron hasnt got any money, ive been saying so for years but it doesnt seem to register on here.

People moan that he doesnt spend, but he cant afford to, which is not his fault. He has done more than the rest of us to keep the club going.

If people dont like it, they could always buy the Club off him.

[leeblue]

I caught a brief snip on the radio this morn that the club are struggling to come up with the money, hope I misheard

[ElstreeBlue]

Or a complete lack of money. Ron hasnt got any money, ive been saying so for years but it doesnt seem to register on here.

People moan that he doesnt spend, but he cant afford to, which is not his fault. He has done more than the rest of us to keep the club going.

If people dont like it, they could always buy the Club off him.

Whether he personally doesn't have the money is, I don't think, the issue. Even if he personally doesn't have enough money, he has been able to use his charm weapon so the club could borrow money - otherwise how could the club have survived with its debt and such few assets?

What's been more concerning, though, has been the financial mismanagement. How could the club be losing such vast sums of money? An annual loss of £2m is huge by any club's standards at this level and is unsustainable. Ron Martin should rightly not be spending money like there's no tomorrow just to appease certain fans' demands, but with our recent successes on the pitch and small squad where on earth has that sort of money been leaking?? Were League One players on Championship wages - ie no financial planning for the likely relegation when we went up to the Championship? That must surely only be part of the loss - where else have such big losses have been incurred?

That sort of annual loss would be unsustainable at any lower division club bar clubs the size of Leeds. If all clubs had been losing as much money as we have been, there wouldn't be any lower leagues left.

Even IF we clear the HMRC debt, what happens next? How can we afford to pay the next debt if we're losing such vast sums of money?

[steveo]

Whether he personally doesn't have the money is, I don't think, the issue. Even if he personally doesn't have enough money, he has been able to use his charm weapon so the club could borrow money - otherwise how could the club have survived with its debt and such few assets?

What's been more concerning, though, has been the financial mismanagement. How could the club be losing such vast sums of money? An annual loss of £2m is huge by any club's standards at this level and is unsustainable. Ron Martin should rightly not be spending money like there's no tomorrow just to appease certain fans' demands, but with our recent successes on the pitch and small squad where on earth has that sort of money been leaking?? Were League One players on Championship wages - ie no financial planning for the likely relegation when we went up to the Championship? That must surely only be part of the loss - where else have such big losses have been incurred?

That sort of annual loss would be unsustainable at any lower division club bar clubs the size of Leeds. If all clubs had been losing as much money as we have been, there wouldn't be any lower leagues left.

Even IF we clear the HMRC debt, what happens next? How can we afford to pay the next debt if we're losing such vast sums of money?

First and foremost I would imagine Ron puts his own interests before those of the club, cant blame him for that. With regard to borrowing money, you can only get so much before people just wont lend it anymore, especially the way the banks have panicked this year.

If the Club are running at such a large operating loss, the options to increase revenue are to get more fans in, find a rich benefactor or new sponsor or reduce the wage bill dramatically. The first two are not likely to happen. The only way the third one will, would be to sell players and replace them with players who will be happy to earn a fraction of the wages which would be a quick route to non league footy.

If Ron was taking 10 million quid a year in wages it would be different, but he isnt, although wages and salaries for accounts filed in July were £7120386 for the year.

I have no idea what a Southend player earns but if you had a squad of 20 averaging £150K per year thats 3 million quid which leaves over 4 million for everyone else who works there.

[BrettieAngell]

Whether he personally doesn't have the money is, I don't think, the issue. Even if he personally doesn't have enough money, he has been able to use his charm weapon so the club could borrow money - otherwise how could the club have survived with its debt and such few assets?

What's been more concerning, though, has been the financial mismanagement. How could the club be losing such vast sums of money? An annual loss of £2m is huge by any club's standards at this level and is unsustainable. Ron Martin should rightly not be spending money like there's no tomorrow just to appease certain fans' demands, but with our recent successes on the pitch and small squad where on earth has that sort of money been leaking?? Were League One players on Championship wages - ie no financial planning for the likely relegation when we went up to the Championship? That must surely only be part of the loss - where else have such big losses have been incurred?

That sort of annual loss would be unsustainable at any lower division club bar clubs the size of Leeds. If all clubs had been losing as much money as we have been, there wouldn't be any lower leagues left.

Even IF we clear the HMRC debt, what happens next? How can we afford to pay the next debt if we're losing such vast sums of money?

I believe we didn't factor in relegation clauses into contracts when we were in the Championship.

[ElstreeBlue]

First and foremost I would imagine Ron puts his own interests before those of the club, cant blame him for that. With regard to borrowing money, you can only get so much before people just wont lend it anymore, especially the way the banks have panicked this year.

If the Club are running at such a large operating loss, the options to increase revenue are to get more fans in, find a rich benefactor or new sponsor or reduce the wage bill dramatically. The first two are not likely to happen. The only way the third one will, would be to sell players and replace them with players who will be happy to earn a fraction of the wages which would be a quick route to non league footy.

If Ron was taking 10 million quid a year in wages it would be different, but he isnt, although wages and salaries for accounts filed in July were £7120386 for the year.

I have no idea what a Southend player earns but if you had a squad of 20 averaging £150K per year thats 3 million quid which leaves over 4 million for everyone else who works there.

Whether the business is a small baker's shop or Vodafone, Leeds Utd or Darlington, the business has to do whatever necessary to balance its books. It has to live within its own means, whatever its own projected revenues and costs are for that particular business. Otherwise, with continued relative big losses, in the long-term it can't continue - assuming of course that no rich benefactor comes forward to the rescue and bank-roll the business just for the love of it.

If the average player's wage at the club really is £3k as your figures would suggest, that would be where a big part of the problem lies (although I'd still question whether a club of our size can still afford to pay out another £4m on other costs). If we can't afford those wages, we shouldn't be paying at those levels. The same with our other costs. Otherwise, if the club does not live within its means in a sustainable way, sooner or later it would cease to exist. If that means we have to go down a division - that's fine by me as long as we still have a club to support. But are other clubs of our size paying £3k per player per week on average in wages?

Ultimately, wherever the losses have been incurred, I don't know. I don't have the detail of the figures, and the accounts don't help to pinpoint the failure. But the buck stops with Ron Martin. Whether or not he has the money personally to pay off historic debts and whether or not he wants the club to succeed (why would he not want it to succeed so that it could pay rent at the new stadium?) is not the point. I also have no problem with him looking after his own interests, but as a director he owes duties to promote the club's interests too.

The crucial point is: he should be ensuring that year-to-year the club lives within its means and is able to continue. I find the recent losses staggering. No wonder we're in trouble and there is a winding-up hearing less than a week away. If nothing else, I'd like to know what the board are planning to do about redressing things so that we break even, but all we hear is "wait for the new stadium" - and that's a business model for the club that still hasn't been properly explained yet.

[ElstreeBlue]

I believe we didn't factor in relegation clauses into contracts when we were in the Championship.

If that's the case, that's not particularly good financial management when there was a fair chance that we would have gone down from the Championship! As a business, we should plan ahead. You can't expect to plan for the unknowns, but you can at least expect to plan for the likely eventualities. Similarly, I'd hope that we factor into current contracts the possibility that we may go down again (although of course the chance of relegation is slimmer than when we were playing in the Championship).

[GBJ]

otherwise how could the club have survived with its debt and such few assets?

What's been more concerning, though, has been the financial mismanagement. How could the club be losing such vast sums of money? An annual loss of £2m is huge by any club's standards at this level and is unsustainable.

but with our recent successes on the pitch and small squad where on earth has that sort of money been leaking??

Were League One players on Championship wages

where else have such big losses have been incurred?



Some decent points, that have constantly been overlooked or brushed aside without any real answer from within the club.

Afterall, if you go through the whole thing, some some things just do not add up.

Look at it like this - it's been asked many-a-time, where has the Eastwood/Bailey/JCR/Cup games/TV/etc money gone? To which people have swiftly replied... "towards the running of the club". Ok.

In the last 5 years our attendence/fan base has doubled. Therefore the money coming in, is more. The club can take anything from £100k to £200k on matchdays. Where has THAT money gone? Surely not to the running of the club aswell?

Either way, we now find ourselves in massive debt, and possibly on the brink of closure and we're still no clearer on where the money has gone?

[My Name Escapes Me]

Some decent points, that have constantly been overlooked or brushed aside without any real answer from within the club.

Afterall, if you go through the whole thing, some some things just do not add up.

Look at it like this - it's been asked many-a-time, where has the Eastwood/Bailey/JCR/Cup games/TV/etc money gone? To which people have swiftly replied... "towards the running of the club". Ok.

In the last 5 years our attendence/fan base has doubled. Therefore the money coming in, is more. The club can take anything from £100k to £200k on matchdays. Where has THAT money gone? Surely not to the running of the club aswell?

Either way, we now find ourselves in massive debt, and possibly on the brink of closure and we're still no clearer on where the money has gone?

The answer to 'where has the money has gone?' is probably 'towards the running of the club' - the biggest part of which is players wages - that the running of the club has cost far more than we can afford may be why we are where we are.
I think the truth about our financial difficulties is far more mundane than some of the more wilder theories of Ron Martin as evil genius.
The club was up to its neck in debt when he took it over, he kept it afloat for a number of years and probably let wages spiral to championship levels when we got promoted. Then the combination of cost of the planning enquiry, the impact of a major recession and the HMRC taking a tougher line means all our financial chickens are coming home to roost.

[Mick]

The answer to 'where has the money has gone?' is probably 'towards the running of the club' - the biggest part of which is players wages - that the running of the club has cost far more than we can afford may be why we are where we are.
I think the truth about our financial difficulties is far more mundane than some of the more wilder theories of Ron Martin as evil genius.
The club was up to its neck in debt when he took it over, he kept it afloat for a number of years and probably let wages spiral to championship levels when we got promoted. Then the combination of cost of the planning enquiry, the impact of a major recession and the HMRC taking a tougher line means all our financial chickens are coming home to roost.

I thought they were taking a less tough line ?

[My Name Escapes Me]

I thought they were taking a less tough line ?

I was basing that on posts on here from people who come across the HMRC in their line of work and who have said they seem to be taking a more tougher line recently.

[GBJ]

The answer to 'where has the money has gone?' is probably 'towards the running of the club' - the biggest part of which is players wages - that the running of the club has cost far more than we can afford may be why we are where we are.
I think the truth about our financial difficulties is far more mundane than some of the more wilder theories of Ron Martin as evil genius.
The club was up to its neck in debt when he took it over, he kept it afloat for a number of years and probably let wages spiral to championship levels when we got promoted. Then the combination of cost of the planning enquiry, the impact of a major recession and the HMRC taking a tougher line means all our financial chickens are coming home to roost.

Maybe so, but if the wages are the case, then why do we owe the taxman so much? Were the payments put off?

I totally agree that the wages have probably been ridiculously high. I've been saying for ages that certain players are on nearly £4k per week. Maybe more.

[My Name Escapes Me]

Maybe so, but if the wages are the case, then why do we owe the taxman so much? Were the payments put off?

I totally agree that the wages have probably been ridiculously high. I've been saying for ages that certain players are on nearly £4k per week. Maybe more.

I have always assumed that the tax owed is not tax on profits but deductions from employee wages eg PAYE, National Insurance.

[GBJ]

I have always assumed that the tax owed is not tax on profits but deductions from employee wages eg PAYE, National Insurance.

So how long would we have had to withold payment for it to reach a debt of £600k? Would assume it was a fair few months. If that's the case, WHY couldn't we pay it?

We've heard rumours of players/staff not being payed aswell. why was that? Its obvious the club is making money, as i said we can make anyhting from £100k-£200k on a matchday.

Wages not being payed, Taxman not being payed, No new signings - the money MUST be going somewhere.

[steveo]

So how long would we have had to withold payment for it to reach a debt of £600k? Would assume it was a fair few months. If that's the case, WHY couldn't we pay it?


According to my info the CCJ we have against us is for 72209


17/06/2009 NORTHAMPTON £72,209 Judgement 9NN02352

Is this separate to the Tax man's claim?

[GBJ]

According to my info the CCJ we have against us is for 72209



Is this separate to the Tax man's claim?

Dunno? Thought that was what the HRMC thing was all about? not paying the taxman?

[Firestorm]

The Tax bill for year to 31/7/2007 account was 1.3M
for 31/7/2008 it was 888,459

Year to 30/7/08 The club lost 2.5M (previous year profit 1.3M) , its cost of sales expenditure was the same as the previous year, but Income was down a whopping 3M (with the difference in Transfer fees obtained for players sold only accounting for 870K.

Administrative expenses was up 500k (there is no breakdown for this P&L item in the accounts) and stood at 2M.

@31/7/03
Income 3.1M
Wages 1.5M
Other Expenses 770k
Administrative expenses 230K

@31/7/08
Income 5.35M (incl 630K Transfer fees)
Wages 3.4M
Other expenses 2.4M (Incl 566k transfer fees paid)
Administrative expenses 2M


So any increase in our income over the past 5 years has been matched by increases in our wage bill (wages in 2006 were 3.7m) and the mysterious balance sheet item of Administrative expenses has risen almost 10 fold in 5 years

[blue shrimp]

The Tax bill for year to 31/7/2007 account was 1.3M
for 31/7/2008 it was 888,459

Year to 30/7/08 The club lost 2.5M (previous year profit 1.3M) , its cost of sales expenditure was the same as the previous year, but Income was down a whopping 3M (with the difference in Transfer fees obtained for players sold only accounting for 870K.

Administrative expenses was up 500k (there is no breakdown for this P&L item in the accounts) and stood at 2M.

@31/7/03
Income 3.1M
Wages 1.5M
Other Expenses 770k
Administrative expenses 230K

@31/7/08
Income 5.35M (incl 630K Transfer fees)
Wages 3.4M
Other expenses 2.4M (Incl 566k transfer fees paid)
Administrative expenses 2M


So any increase in our income over the past 5 years has been matched by increases in our wage bill (wages in 2006 were 3.7m) and the mysterious balance sheet item of Administrative expenses has risen almost 10 fold in 5 years

Administrrative expenditure is a no brainer...Vast sums of money appear to have vanished in a black hole being a money pit...Strange way to conduct a company.

[steveo]

Administrrative expenditure is a no brainer...Vast sums of money appear to have vanished in a black hole being a money pit...Strange way to conduct a company.

But when you are a Director of 13 Companies, as Ron is, its a good way of switching money around.

[blue shrimp]

But when you are a Director of 13 Companies, as Ron is, its a good way of switching money around.

Of course it is very clever yet does not help the football club much.

[weststander]

Administrrative expenditure is a no brainer...Vast sums of money appear to have vanished in a black hole being a money pit...Strange way to conduct a company.

Be careful of what you imply, it could get either yourself or this site into trouble.