In recent years...

[Ron Manager]

.....we have had bigger average crowds than we've had in decades, had a season of Championship money, had decent cup runs and the TV money that goes with it and sold players for money.

Considering we have been told that the club is run as a business only spending money that we actually have (a mindset I applaud by the way) how exactly have we got ourselves into this situation? Is it all down to money spent on plans etc for the new ground? Or is it mismanagement at board level?

Genuine question as I don't know but would love to find out.

[C]

Where has the Eastwood / Man U money gone? :)

[Ron Manager]

I'm sure the Eastwood/Man U money has been spent within the club somewhere...clubs increasingly run at a loss just on day to day income and need the bonuses of cup runs and transfer fees to stay afloat. My point is we've had enough 'bonus money' in recent times to at least kept our heads above water...so why are we in this mess?

[Stats]

Didnt Ron quote once that the club needed to average gates of around 8000 to break even?

If thats the case then surely the club should be ok and not deep in the poop that we are now.

[Ron Manager]

Exactly...plus he surely can't have budgeted for things like the Man U and Chelsea matches so surely we should have a bit of a financial cushion?

Obviously we don't so what has happened?

[Shrimper_Apes]

how boring is this thread!


how many times do you seriously want to go over it???

[Ron Manager]

Just trying to analyse sensibly and soberly the cause of our problems without personal attacks on people or wild speculation as to what the future holds. Yes, that may be boring so don't read it if you don't want to.

[Stats]

how boring is this thread!


how many times do you seriously want to go over it???

Perhaps if the club would of been a bit more forward with the supporters then we wouldnt have numerous threads with many supporters airing their cautions?

[Mr Belgrave]

D'ur, perhaps if we had a team of Paul Samson, Chrissy Powell, Jerome Boere and Mike Marsh we'd be world beaters!

[mcnasty]

D'ur, perhaps if we had a team of Paul Samson, Chrissy Powell, Jerome Boere and Mike Marsh we'd be world beaters!

I think you will find that they are too old, too injured or too dead to make us world-beaters.

[Beefy]

The answers are in the accounts. It's no secret. Even in the Championship year, which included the Man United and Spurs games, we made a tiny profit and that was only because we sold Freddy Eastwood just before Year End. Had we not have done, we'd have made a £1.4m loss that year. Why did we make a loss? Well the largest expense by far was wages which were far higher then previous years. The next year our income dropped literally by millions but our wage bill stayed the same. Hence we lost £2m. The next year we lost another £2m (according to RM in one of his blogs).

The P&L taking such a hit isn't the end of the World by itself because the bulk of the debt was being serviced by the Parent Company. But it was eating up cash and as with all companies having cashflow problems we'll have delayed payments to suppliers and exhausted lending lines and then ultimately we've used money that should have been set aside for HMRC. It's pure speculation, but I suspect that had the Parent Companies not had to contend with the banking and property meltdown (the last two sectors that a heavily-geared property developer would have wanted to see suffer) and not had expensive legal and other costs associated with the stadium to fund, then we wouldn't have had to resort to using the tax money as working capital.

[Mr Belgrave]

I think you will find that they are too old, too injured or too dead to make us world-beaters.

Irony is lost on the irons.

Still there's always Billy Best and Frankie Banks!

[mcnasty]

Irony is lost on the irons.

Still there's always Billy Best and Frankie Banks!

Bring your boots Friday -- if we are still in existence.

[Irish_Shrimper]

how boring is this thread!



Erm, don't post on it then?

[Firestorm]

The answers are in the accounts. It's no secret. Even in the Championship year, which included the Man United and Spurs games, we made a tiny profit and that was only because we sold Freddy Eastwood just before Year End. Had we not have done, we'd have made a £1.4m loss that year. Why did we make a loss? Well the largest expense by far was wages which were far higher then previous years. The next year our income dropped literally by millions but our wage bill stayed the same. Hence we lost £2m. The next year we lost another £2m (according to RM in one of his blogs).

The P&L taking such a hit isn't the end of the World by itself because the bulk of the debt was being serviced by the Parent Company. But it was eating up cash and as with all companies having cashflow problems we'll have delayed payments to suppliers and exhausted lending lines and then ultimately we've used money that should have been set aside for HMRC. It's pure speculation, but I suspect that had the Parent Companies not had to contend with the banking and property meltdown (the last two sectors that a heavily-geared property developer would have wanted to see suffer) and not had expensive legal and other costs associated with the stadium to fund, then we wouldn't have had to resort to using the tax money as working capital.

Thats about it...except the Championship year we made 1.3M , without the 1.5M of Freddy money that year would have been a loss.

Basically winning League 1 ,completely unexpectedly, cost us, We attempted to consolidate in an exhalted position which failed and left us with sky high wage bills and falling incomes , the losses were being hedged against future profits anticipated by a boyant property market so they were sustainable, the arse fell out of property and our safety net went with it

[Ron Manager]

Another lesson not learned from the past then. Spending money we don't have chasing a dream in the second tier. Sorry, I know we all want to see us progress and compete at a higher level but not at the risk of the long term future of the club surely? How long did it take to get out of the hole last time? Years, and here we are now in the same position. Personally I'd rather a financially sound League Two club than a yo-yo League 1 and Championship one in danger of not existing at all.

[EastStandBlue]

Another lesson not learned from the past then. Spending money we don't have chasing a dream in the second tier.

What you have to look at is the vast majority of Championship clubs spend far beyond their means, they just have reliably inflated revenue streams in order to service the debt... Had we stayed in the Championship, we wouldn't have seen such a dramatic loss in revenue and the legal costs associated with the Fossett's Build wouldn't have exhausted our working capital.

[BLUEBLOOD]

Another lesson not learned from the past then. Spending money we don't have chasing a dream in the second tier.

I don't think that's quite correct Andy, by winning L1 at the first attempt we suddenly found ourselves in the CCC with basically the same squad that 15 months previously had taken on the likes of Chester City and Kidderminster Harriers, now it was to be Wolves, West Brom et al..

We found it hard to attract players (rather obviously i'm afraid) and those that did come were still too expensive for us and ultimately not good enough

Who do i blame most for this ... Players and agents, and the tw@ts in the Premier$hite who import all these Johnny Foreigners on huge wages, so the English lads, still on a good screw at £20k a week get squeezed out to lower Prem / top Champ level and have to accept lower wages at only £10k a week .. they in turn squeeze out the previous higher earners (players like Harding) who can still seem to command £5k a week at L1 level

My only surprise is that many many clubs haven't gone belly up already

[OldBlueLady]

I wonder, seriously, how Peterborough are doing after having performed similarly? Ok, they have a serious bit of cash behind them, but I reckon they'd be suffering similar worries if they dropped down. That was the problem for us, promotion two seasons in a row followed by relegation.

[BLUEBLOOD]

I wonder, seriously, how Peterborough are doing after having performed similarly? Ok, they have a serious bit of cash behind them, but I reckon they'd be suffering similar worries if they dropped down. That was the problem for us, promotion two seasons in a row followed by relegation.

Their owner is SERIOUSLY minted though Kay and treats them as a toy

[* ORM *]

how boring is this thread!


how many times do you seriously want to go over it???

I'd like to go over it as many times as possible wondering exactly how we've got ourselves into this mess. Being told the day to day running of the club is at comfortable levels, being told a break even gate figure (which we surpassed) and seeing all the extra, unbudgeted revenue coming in and then finding us in this position cannot go unquestioned. Someone is letting money drip out of the club in untenable wages and transfer market mistakes. Bad luck can only come into the equation a few times. We seem to make this a habit rather than an occassioal matter.

I'm beginning to think we would have been better off without the new ground dream, or we had someone sufficiently rich to bankroll it. I've no doubt that the banking crisis hasn't helped but I've also no doubt that Ron's "benevolance" in not claiming RH rent amongst other money owed by the club is more to do with the financial rewards that would come with the sale of RH and the creation of FF ground and business emporium. It seems to me Ron has gambled with the future of our club. How about gambling another few hundred K to get the IR off of our backs ? If we fail to pay IR or sort out a deal that says a lot, in my opinion, for any current commitment from external backers towards FF.

It is possible, of course, that RM is busy trying to broker a deal that would delay the IR whilst financing becomes available so I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt as he seems to have pulled a few rabbits out before now. If that solution involves administration and points deductions that's not a solution that works in my books.

This is a graver situation since the 80s and Anton Johnson and they were VERY DARK DAYS. We have every right to question what is currently going on until we get answers and I'll welcome anyone's thoughts on the current predicament. If you're bored with reading that there's always Enid Blyton online. :p

[Firestorm]

Three scenarios as far as i see it

in the next two days someone stumps up 660k to send HMRC away happy

in the next 2 days RM puts SUFC in Voluntary Administration , we get a 10 pt deduction etc etc

Wednesday arrives , the court grants the winding up order and SUFC are placed in compulsory Liquidation which i believe means we will be expelled from the football league.

My money is on 2...

[Jam_Man]

Another lesson not learned from the past then. Spending money we don't have chasing a dream in the second tier. Sorry, I know we all want to see us progress and compete at a higher level but not at the risk of the long term future of the club surely? How long did it take to get out of the hole last time? Years, and here we are now in the same position. Personally I'd rather a financially sound League Two club than a yo-yo League 1 and Championship one in danger of not existing at all.

We hardly spent that much money anyway and hardly like when we were spending £500,000 on players.

If we hadnt spent any money then everyone on here would have been up in arms that we werent, so the club cant win.

Even this season everyones constantly complaining the Ron Martin warchest (wiped out by recession) didnt materialise.

[Firestorm]

We hardly spent that much money anyway and hardly like when we were spending £500,000 on players.



Which caused the debt of 8 Million inherited by RM which required the sale of RH and B&L to keep us afloat, and we are still effectively paying for now

[BoyWonder2]

Didnt Ron quote once that the club needed to average gates of around 8000 to break even?

If thats the case then surely the club should be ok and not deep in the poop that we are now.

Ron recently stated the break even figure now was Championship football in FF.

Basically, relegation from the Championship has killed us. In League Two/League One we basically brought in local players from non-league like Bentley, Eastwood, Cole etc players that genuinely wanted to play for the Club. Once we got promoted we have a core of players that played League Two football not so long ago.

We then had to improve the squad to give us a chance of surviving. The likes of Clarke, Hammell, Ricketts and Foran came in on big, big wages without relegation clauses in them. Clarke cost us over £1million in wages during his 3 year spell with us. Foran and Ricketts where on huge wages for us, and by them two failing to perform/stay fit it was money down the pan.

Basically we gambled to stay in the Championship and failed. That lost us £2 million and then in League One, without all the TV money, sell outs etc etc we was still paying Championship wages, and it was the same last season. The wage bill has come down, with the likes of JCR, Ricketts, Hammell, Foran and Clarke being removed, but its still quite high, hence why Clarke was never realistically going to stay with us.

[Stats]

Does anyone know if there were any plans to reduce costs our season after getting relegated from the Championship?

For instance its all fair giving a players and staff an increase after a promotion but after the relegation did they take pay cuts?

[Dave Smiths Love Child]

Thats about it...except the Championship year we made 1.3M , without the 1.5M of Freddy money that year would have been a loss.

Basically winning League 1 ,completely unexpectedly, cost us, We attempted to consolidate in an exhalted position which failed and left us with sky high wage bills and falling incomes , the losses were being hedged against future profits anticipated by a boyant property market so they were sustainable, the arse fell out of property and our safety net went with it


How can you unexpectedly win the league, surely at the start of every season its the main aim, and you budget for this ie extra bonuses, wages, gate revenue etc. Perhaps after 20 games you may wish to look at a different budget especially if in the relegation fight and no cup runs that may have been forecast orginally

I work as a financial and management accountant and Im sure if I stated we unexpectedly made a profit which included bonuses that we have to pay out, but didnot budget, then my arse would be on the line.

Lets be honest we were allways in the running for the title, so its not as if it came out of the blue.

[Dave Smiths Love Child]

Does anyone know if there were any plans to reduce costs our season after getting relegated from the Championship?

For instance its all fair giving a players and staff an increase after a promotion but after the relegation did they take pay cuts?

More important Stats, what is the budget for next season, if we drop down further another league after points deducted 10 will be ok to stay put, but 30 points !!!

[Stats]

More important Stats, what is the budget for next season, if we drop down further another league after points deducted 10 will be ok to stay put, but 30 points !!!

SUFC in the close season will run footballs equivilent of the x-factor. We will unearth a team full of gems that will earn pittence, storm the league and sell them on for maximum profit.

[Dave Smiths Love Child]

So we sign Edward and John similar to Bramble and Corbett !!!

[Stats]

So we sign Edward and John similar to Bramble and Corbett !!!

Would cause all kinds of confusion in the opposition box.

[Ron Manager]

Basically we gambled to stay in the Championship and failed.

That's the crux of it for me. All this talk about running it as a business and not repeating the mistakes of the past means nothing when it appears we risked the long term future on staying in the Championship, which was always going to be a huge ask anyway.

I know sections of our support would have been up in arms if we hadn't brought anyone into the team and basically just gone for it with the same squad which got us promoted, but would that really have been such a bad thing. We could have just taken the money from being at a higher level and gone back to League One financially stronger and given it another crack. Instead we are in the position we're in now.

[BoyWonder2]

That's the crux of it for me. All this talk about running it as a business and not repeating the mistakes of the past means nothing when it appears we risked the long term future on staying in the Championship, which was always going to be a huge ask anyway.

I know sections of our support would have been up in arms if we hadn't brought anyone into the team and basically just gone for it with the same squad which got us promoted, but would that really have been such a bad thing. We could have just taken the money from being at a higher level and gone back to League One financially stronger and given it another crack. Instead we are in the position we're in now.

West Brom did that last season in the Premiership.

Tony Mowbraw was given peanuts to spend in the Premiership and they went down fighting. The Club will be in a better position because of the money they recieved in the Premiership, then the parachute payments they recieve for going down.

Like you say though, if Tilson had to rely on free signings/loan signings we have been up in arms at the Club for not showing any ambition etc. We gambled at staying in the Championship with the likes of Ricketts, Foran and Clarke who all proved to be disasters financially to the Club.