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The American Gun Law

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MK Shrimper said:
Question for Rusty:

Roughly 12,000 US citizens murdered a year by guns.

If everyone was armed, would that figure be higher or lower do you think?
Click to expand...

I think most of those people were murdered by other people, using a gun as a weapon. Most firearms used to commit criminal acts are obtained illegally. As I have mentioned before, the homeowner's right to protect his castle makes the average citizen considerably safer than he is in the UK.

But if you want a straight answer to your question, if all US citizens had a firearm that they had obtained legally, then that number would go down in my opinion.
 
The average Joe isnt equipped to get involved in gunfights even if they had a gun on them.

The guy got shot by cops anyway so wouldnt have stopped him doing it even if there were armed guards there.
 
Rusty Shackleford said:
I beg to differ.

9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally Owned Firearm
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In all of those cases, innocent people were shot, and many killed.

Also up thread you said that americans with a gun in their house are at less risk of a violent burglary than here in the UK. In the stats I've found the risks of burglary and violent burglary are very similar between the UK and US. However in the US the risk of general gun homicide (including domestic violence etc) are much greater than the UK.

The US is the only developed country with such relaxed gun laws. They are also the only developed country which has such large scale and frequent mass shootings.
 
Pubey said:
In all of those cases, innocent people were shot, and many killed.

Also up thread you said that americans with a gun in their house are at less risk of a violent burglary than here in the UK. In the stats I've found the risks of burglary and violent burglary are very similar between the UK and US. However in the US the risk of general gun homicide (including domestic violence etc) are much greater than the UK.

The US is the only developed country with such relaxed gun laws. They are also the only developed country which has such large scale and frequent mass shootings.
Click to expand...

Can we have a look at the 'stats you've found'?
 
Pubey said:
I shut down all the links and sources I was reading but both UK and US had an approximate rate of burglary of about 2.5%, and 0.5% for violent burglaries.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4657
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/taxonomy/index.html?nscl=Burglary
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I may be reading this wrongly, but those statistics show a burglary rate of 28 per 1,000 households in the US and 44 per 1,000 households in the UK in the same period (2011). This would indicate a burglary rate that is 57% higher in the UK. You should also consider that gun ownership laws vary significantly by state so the effect of the deterrent would be hard to quantify just by looking at the US statistics as a whole. This is purely anecdotal evidence, but I don't even consider the threat of burglary at my home in the US, whilst I certainly did when I lived in Southend and in London. I know that nobody wants a TV so badly that they would risk coming face to face with this:
latest
 
Rusty Shackleford said:
I may be reading this wrongly, but those statistics show a burglary rate of 28 per 1,000 households in the US and 44 per 1,000 households in the UK in the same period (2011). This would indicate a burglary rate that is 57% higher in the UK. You should also consider that gun ownership laws vary significantly by state so the effect of the deterrent would be hard to quantify just by looking at the US statistics as a whole. This is purely anecdotal evidence, but I don't even consider the threat of burglary at my home in the US, whilst I certainly did when I lived in Southend and in London. I know that nobody wants a TV so badly that they would risk coming face to face with this:
latest
Click to expand...

yeah that might not have been the right place I was looking at the UK stats. I mean here it's 1%:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/227013/Crime_Aug_2013.pdf

Bottom line, I don't think (and can't find) any clear evidence that your risk of getting burgled (and burgled with a gun) is lowed in the US compared to the UK.

However your risk of getting shot, getting shot at school, being a victim of a armed robbery at work, being in a mass shooting. All higher in the US. Your risk of being murdered is higher in the US.
 
The American public in general want change to the existing gun laws. 'Some' politicians want change to the existing gun laws. You don't have to be Einstein to work out that the current laws are inadequate, as is the US attitude to mental health but that's a whole other issue.

Unfortunately until they change, and change fundamentally, the political campaign funding system in the US and negate the extraordinary power the NRA has over the Senate and Congress absolutely nothing will change, nothing. Sandy Hook is testament to that. Those that do collectively have the power to change America and it's crazy gun laws have neither the political or personal will to do so.

I'm of the opinion that secretly many senators and congressman know what needs to be done but also know it would be political suicide to speak out against those that finance their careers. A very sad indictment on a completely ****ed up political system.

And don't even get me started on the whole Second Amendment 'it's our inalienable right' crap.


Edit: Avery good piece from CNN highlighting my point, bits of which I've removed as they weren't relevant to the discussion.

Obama said the gun manufacturers would "make out like bandits, partly because of this fear that's churned up that the federal government and the black helicopters are all coming to get your guns." The President argued the absence of common-sense gun safety laws was "unique" to this country. He said: "The grip of the NRA on Congress is extremely strong. I don't foresee any legislative action being taken in this Congress."
The President's predictions were correct. In contrast to other shootings that the nation has witnessed, this time there didn't even seem to be any momentum for gun reform. Few legislators in either party are willing to take a stand on the issue, while the opposition locks in almost as soon as the sound of the bullets starts to fade.

Why does gun reform fail, no matter how intense the outrage from horrendous attacks?
The most important and obvious factor is exactly what the President mentioned: the overwhelming power of the gun lobby.

This is one of the most sophisticated lobbies in the country. The National Rifle Assocation and other gun rights organizations employ a full arsenal of lobbying tools -- from disputed constitutional arguments, to a massive campaign finance war chest, to voter mobilization drives -- that are enough to influence members of both parties.
In the 2014 midterm elections, the NRA spent $12 million, with 95% of its candidates victorious. Whenever the issue comes up in Congress, the NRA mobilizes and makes it clear that there will be payback for any representative or senator who supports gun control.

Many Republicans have been eager to speak about legislation dealing with mental illness, or the "lone wolf" nature of the shooting, but not the ways in which gun control could help prevent weapons from getting into the hands of wrongdoers like Dylann Roof. Former Texas Gov. Rick Perry, a presidential candidate, called the shooting an "accident," although his campaign said he misspoke and meant to say "incident." He only condemned it as a "hate crime" after coming under intense criticism for his remarks. They continually find support from moderate Democrats who oppose any kind of substantive restrictions.

Many conservative media outlets and discussion groups fueled the flames, talking instead about the need to broaden access to guns so that people could protect themselves. In an online forum,Charles Cotton, an NRA executive, wrote about Pastor Clementa Pinckney, a state senator who was killed in the attacks: "Innocent people died as a result of his position on a political issue," meaning his opposition to 2011 legislation in South Carolina allowing people to carry concealed weapons in churches.

One host of "Fox & Friends" called the shooting an "attack on faith," warning that "if we are not safe in our churches, then where are we safe?" A number of Fox News hosts were eager to praise the actor Vince Vaughn for comments that he made to support his call for carrying more guns in schools.
All of this has produced a certain level of cynicism among those who support gun restrictions, as expressed by the President when he said he didn't expect reforms any time soon.

Each time that a massacre has occurred, we have seen not only a striking mobilization against any new restrictions but an equally striking absence of strong pressure to address this issue.
A significant number of liberal Democrats, who in previous years had strongly supported gun control, have remained noticeably silent on the issue. They are resigned to defeat.
The President often finds himself standing alone when calling for gun control. But those who say federal legislators can "never" pass gun restrictions should look to moments like the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or the Affordable Care Act of 2010 to see how those predictions can turn out to be wrong.
The good news is that there has been some progress in states like Maryland and New York, which have attempted to move forward even as gridlock reigns supreme on Capitol Hill. But for an effective response to the kind of gun tragedies we see so often, supporters will need stronger mobilization to counteract what their opponents have achieved.

The country needs to do a better job dealing with its gun problem. Otherwise, it will be all too soon that we'll find ourselves going through this again.

The NRA is especially effective, as an article in The Atlantic pointed out, in mobilizing the voters in the handful of swing districts that can determine which party controls the House of Representatives. Many of these districts in states like Arkansas and Pennsylvania are both rural and conservative, with an electorate sympathetic to gun rights. The NRA knows how to get these voters to the polls. As the conservative activist Grover Norquist said back in 2000, "for that 4 to 5% who care about guns, they will vote on this."

It has been extraordinarily difficult to find bipartisan support for reform legislation. There have not been many prominent Republicans willing to put themselves behind the gun control cause. The staunch and disciplined opposition from the GOP is strong. The response of many Republicans to the Charleston attacks has been striking as they downplay the obvious policy problems.
 
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Many demand even more guns.

Scenario,

Madman enters school with powerful assault weapons.

Teachers are now equipped with Magnum revolvers.

Madman can kill from great distance whilst teachers need to be close and personal.

Who wins?

Truth is America has lost it's way,nearly 300 million guns exist in that country which is mind blowing and can never ever be curtailed.
 
It would seem that many Americans, and particularly the powerful NRA just don't care about these events and the people that are killed. Owning and carrying guns appears more important to them than the live taken by these weapons.

As Jeb Bush says, stuff happens. And if this is the attitude of those with influence power it will continue to happen again and again.
 
Rusty Shackleford said:
NRA-Blood.jpg
Click to expand...

Not to mention the hundreds of innocent children, teachers police officers etc. You, know like this one:

Boy, 11 held for shooting dead eight year old neighbour.

Unsurprisingly this was in Tennessee, which (as per Pubey's chart above) is one of the states where it is easiest to obtain a gun. And just to re-iterate my point above, here's the last paragraph of the report:

The Gun Violence Archive, a not-for-profit organisation that compiles data on gun violence in the US, says 559 children aged 11 or under have been killed or injured in the United States in gun violence so far this year.
Click to expand...

Rusty, I actually think you're an intelligent guy, but frankly that poster is what I would expect to be shown by someone a bit simple.

Moreover, here's the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Click to expand...

I don't see anywhere where it says that US citizens have the right to become vigilantes and bypass the rule of law, and stop these people having a fair trial. I thought the US had the same basic principle as us: that you're innocent until proven guilty, not that you're innocent until gunned down by a gun wielding maniacal vigilante.
 
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I think virtually every member of SZ, let alone 99.9% of the western world cannot understand America's love/hate obsession with guns, not to mention probably those Americans who live in the big cities like NY and LA. A very small percentage of Americans hold sway over US politics and the killings will keep happening. There doesn't seem a big enough number of dead children that will stop it.
 
After we visited the Vegas gun range,an armed security guy asked us to stand with him until our taxi arrived for our own safety,opposite the range was a dodgy looking apartment complex.The security guy told us the complex had several people living there who would rob and potentially kill for their own greed,guy then walked across the car park which Mr security pointed out he was one not to cross but was also a gun bully.Convertible sports car pulled into the car park and the driver who was a rather tall woman packing a sidearm,Mr Security told us she was a bodyguard and was trained in self defence and was a crack shot with her gun.


We got into our taxi and simply thought "we are in the Wild West "
 
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