Gaza

steveo said:

Thing is Barna how do you define proportionate? If The Israelis are under attack from someone who frequently misses its target, do you mean Israel should deliberately miss theirs just to make it even?

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They're doing that already, aren't they? Or do they mean to kill and maim scores of children?

steveo said:

Thing is Barna how do you define proportionate? If The Israelis are under attack from someone who frequently misses its target, do you mean Israel should deliberately miss theirs just to make it even?

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Israel has reported that 29 of its soldiers along with two civilians have died so far in the 15 day fighting.

"According to Gaza health official Ashraf al-Kidra, the Palestinian death toll stood at 650, most of them civilians".


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/john-kerry-flies-israel-flight-ban-gaza-ceasefire-talks

That is clearly disproportionate.

Tangled up in Blue said:

Actually, my source was an Israeli academic who quoted this figure on Monday's Newsnight's discussion of Gaza.

Since neither the show's presenter-Kirsty Wark -nor the Israeli government spokesman,speaking on a live link from Jerusalem disputed the figure-I assumed it to be correct.
.

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Never assume, it makes an *** out of U and ME.

Does that mean you concede that maybe it isn't true?

Going back to the issue of a political settlement. Here's an interesting article about why Bill Clinton's attempt failed. Leaving aside the "blame game", i.e. that most seem to blame Arafat for walking away, it is interesting to note just how difficult a 2 state solution would be to achieve. That's not to say they shouldn't try, but I think it proves such a settlement is actually more complicated than we realise...

Wikipedia.

As it happens I was in Israel visiting friends around this time and they were all saying they intended to visit the Golan Heights one last time before they were given back. They genuinely believed that peace was around the corner. How wrong they were.

Tangled up in Blue said:

Israel has reported that 29 of its soldiers along with two civilians have died so far in the 15 day fighting.

"According to Gaza health official Ashraf al-Kidra, the Palestinian death toll stood at 650, most of them civilians".


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/john-kerry-flies-israel-flight-ban-gaza-ceasefire-talks

That is clearly disproportionate.

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This argument is IMO juvenile because it doesn't look at the underlying reasons. Anyone with any intelligence (and I include you in that) should know not to read just the headlines, and to question why. Yes, the numbers are disproportionate, but that doesn't mean the modus operandi is. There are many reasons why the numbers are the way they are.

The fact that you've even quoted them says to me you haven't read the Guardian article I provided a link to previously. Here it is again.

The Guardian.

londonblue said:

This argument is IMO juvenile because it doesn't look at the underlying reasons. Anyone with any intelligence (and I include you in that) should know not to read just the headlines, and to question why. Yes, the numbers are disproportionate, but that doesn't mean the modus operandi is. There are many reasons why the numbers are the way they are.

The fact that you've even quoted them says to me you haven't read the Guardian article I provided a link to previously.

Here it is again.

The Guardian.

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The article is wrong on so many levels. I don't have time to go into why I believe that though

If the numbers are disproportionate then the modus operandi definitely is wrong and disproportionate. Israel can't continue to blame Hamas for hiding among civilians as why there are so many civilians being killed. The solution is political, not one for the military. Israeli defences against rocket attacks are strong, and the casualties from these are low, so unless Hamas can clearly be targeted (which in general they can't) then launching flechette shells into civilian populations is IMO a war crime. Just as firing rockets from Gaza into Israel is. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm not excusing what Hamas do either, their continued attacks on Israel is both futile and and heinous. However seeing as the Palestinian 'land' has shrunk by 90% over 70 years and many have fled (been displaced) to other countries it's not a surprise that terrorism has risen up in the remaining territories and people feel it's justified to attack Israel to defend their right to be there.

Pubey said:

The article is wrong on so many levels. I don't have time to go into why I believe that though

If the numbers are disproportionate then the modus operandi definitely is wrong and disproportionate. Israel can't continue to blame Hamas for hiding among civilians as why there are so many civilians being killed. The solution is political, not one for the military. Israeli defences against rocket attacks are strong, and the casualties from these are low, so unless Hamas can clearly be targeted (which in general they can't) then launching flechette shells into civilian populations is IMO a war crime. Just as firing rockets from Gaza into Israel is. Two wrongs don't make a right.

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But the reasons more Israelis don't die is being ignored. They have bomb shelters that are used on a regular basis. They have their iron dome and early warning system that shoots the Hamas rockets out of the sky. Every new-build house and block of flats in Israel are built with strong rooms that can also be hermetically sealed. The reason Israelis don't die is because they look after themselves.

And I dispute your assertion that Israel can't keep blaming Hamas. If Hamas keep putting their civilians in the way then they can. The only people that want civilian deaths are Hamas (note I said Hamas, not the average Gazan - who I believe are more interested in peace than the media would have us believe). They are the only ones deliberately targeting the general population. Each and every rocket into Israel is a war crime. If Israel is guilty of the same (and let's face it, it might be) then it is by accident.

But let's turn the question on its head. If what Israel is doing is not proportionate, what would you say was? What would you let Israel do, and what wouldn't you let it do?

Here's a very interesting article from the Telegraph.

Pubey said:

I'm not excusing what Hamas do either, their continued attacks on Israel is both futile and and heinous. However seeing as the Palestinian 'land' has shrunk by 90% over 70 years and many have fled (been displaced) to other countries it's not a surprise that terrorism has risen up in the remaining territories and people feel it's justified to attack Israel to defend their right to be there.

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I'm assuming you're talking about settlements here? Read the article from Wikipedia that I posted back to TUIB, it mentions how this could be dealt with. However, it is also worth noting that had the 2000 attempt succeeded, most of these settlements would never have been built, and even the ones that existed would be a whole lot smaller than they are now.

Did you also know that the original area of land put aside for Israel included a large chunk that is East of the river Jordan (which obviously includes the West Bank), and is now part of the Kingdom of Jordan? If you want to quote numbers, Israel is 25% of it's originally intended size. However, Israel is now at peace with Jordan and I doubt it would fight to get it back. Moreover, Israel gave up the Sinai in exchange for peace with Egypt. Giving back the Sinai probably reduced Israel's size by about two thirds.

EastStandBlue said:

They're doing that already, aren't they? Or do they mean to kill and maim scores of children?

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I think you know what I mean. If Hamas were capable of killing thousands of Israelis they wouldn't hesitate.

Reports suggesting the UNRWA gave the IDF precise co-ordinates of one of its schools that was being used as a shelter for around 800 women and children as they were attempting to negotiate a window for them to leave. It was never granted. The school was hit by artillery rounds soon after. That's ****ing heinous.

EastStandBlue said:

Reports suggesting the UNRWA gave the IDF precise co-ordinates of one of its schools that was being used as a shelter for around 800 women and children as they were attempting to negotiate a window for them to leave. It was never granted. The school was hit by artillery rounds soon after. That's ****ing heinous.

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****ing hell.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...-hits-un-shelter-gaza-201472413198190287.html

EastStandBlue said:

Reports suggesting the UNRWA gave the IDF precise co-ordinates of one of its schools that was being used as a shelter for around 800 women and children as they were attempting to negotiate a window for them to leave. It was never granted. The school was hit by artillery rounds soon after. That's ****ing heinous.

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There can be no defence for that. Israel's leaders should be bought to the Hague and tried for war crimes. Sickening.

MK Shrimper said:

There can be no defence for that. Israel's leaders should be bought to the Hague and tried for war crimes. Sickening.

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Yeah, that will happen.

Genial Harry Grout said:

Yeah, that will happen.

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Oh I know they've got carte blanche to slaughter innocents as the West idly stands by.

There are moves to charge war crimes against each side,terrible times ahead.

NO DEATH of an innocent is proportionate, Hamas are radical, extreme, and he'll bent on destroying Israel come what may they will not negotiate or be flexible.
Israel is led by fear and a history of iron fist reaction beyond reason and humanitarian concerns.
The innocents suffer, and suffer, and the hate grows and grows.
I am sorry people but the whole business is tragic, depressing and bound to be repeated time and again.

MK Shrimper said:

There can be no defence for that. Israel's leaders should be bought to the Hague and tried for war crimes. Sickening.

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I'm convinced that the West (by which I mean the US,GB and the EU) is now (and probably has for some time) been tacitly complicit in allowing Israel carte blanche to do what they want in the West Bank for a couple of weeks or so, every few years.

Holy sh*t. I actually agree with Barna on this one. This conflict will never have a political end, or a military one for that matter. This will run and run and run for many years to come just as it has for many years previously.

It will now be interesting to see just how vocal Israel's previously open supporters in the west are in their condemnation of it's latest atrocities. I suspect it will be more of the same. Platitudes, sound bites and lots of hand wringing and ultimately the status quo will stay more or less the same.

Bielzibubz said:

Holy sh*t. I actually agree with Barna on this one. This conflict will never have a political end, or a military one for that matter. This will run and run and run for many years to come just as it has for many years previously.

It will now be interesting to see just how vocal Israel's previously open supporters in the west are in their condemnation of it's latest atrocities. I suspect it will be more of the same. Platitudes, sound bites and lots of hand wringing and ultimately the status quo will stay more or less the same.

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I was reading that in the US, the support for Israel comes from the over 50s, while the 18-30 demographic has tipped in favour of Gaza/Palestine. It definitely seems like times are changing and Israel's carte blanche is running out.

But until the old guard on both sides of the US Congress and Senate are replaced by the 18 - 30 demographic you mention Pubey nothing will change. Popular public opinion has for many many decades counted for absolutely diddly squat in the US when religious doctrine is so inextricably linked to, and intertwined with, their domestic political system and foreign policy.

Over the coming weeks and months your going to hear the usual garbage being spouted by the usual suspects in the West but ultimately nothing will change in the Gaza/West bank region until....................well, never really.

Pubey said:

I was reading that in the US, the support for Israel comes from the over 50s, while the 18-30 demographic has tipped in favour of Gaza/Palestine. It definitely seems like times are changing and Israel's carte blanche is running out.

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Which is exactly what Hamas are waiting for. They have only one aim, which is to attain statehood without having to recognise Israel's right to exist, and they will refuse to come to any peace settlement while they think that is an attainable goal. There have been a number of opportunities to come to a peace agreement that satisfied 95% of Palestinian demands and each time it has been the Palestinians, or should I say the Palestinian leadership, who have walked away because their hate for Israel is stronger than their love for their own children.

I think Israel has every right to defend itself, and it is trying to defend itself against Militants who rank ISIS in their murderous brutality, but they are playing straight into the hands of Hamas by trying to fight terrorists embedded in an urban battlefield.

But a simple question Pubey - how would you deal with a situation where, despite having cleared their settlements and handed over a large chunk of land in return for an end to rocket attacks, over a thousand rockets have been fired at civilian population centres this year alone, and Hamas are digging hundreds of tunnels with the aim of launching attacks against the Israeli civilian population at every opportunity? Are you saying Israel should do nothing? Because I assure you that Hamas will NOT agree to any peace deal.

[video=youtube_share;01-2pNCZiNk]http://youtu.be/01-2pNCZiNk[/video]

"War.What is it good for?Absolutely nothing."

As true back then as it is now.