Daniel Bentley - Doubt for Newport

Pubey said:

That's my point, I don't think they do know who is better at this moment in time. Butland's reputation is excellent, but base on present form then can't get an accurate reflection of current ability/form if some players aren't playing.

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They will if they scout them.

It cant be anything to do with the club they are at considering Ted Smith gets included.

Jam_Man said:

They will if they scout them.

It cant be anything to do with the club they are at considering Ted Smith gets included.

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But that's suggesting that scouting is an exact science when it's not. If it was then we'd only sign good players because we'd know exactly how they'd perform!

The best way for Bentley to be evaluated is for him to get into the squad so he can be in the set-up 24/7 for a week and they can compare the players in training.

Back to my original point - if they are pinning their hat on Butland being the next England keeper after Hart then fine, keep him happy and pick him even though he's not playing. However I think there should be a bit of an incentive and reward for players who go on loan or whatever to get first team games and get international call-ups. Hart could feasibly be the England keeper for another 10 years and so why just focus on Butland and ignore the other potential keepers?

Butland took a big contract at Stoke to be a 2 or 3rd choice keeper, and I'm not sure that was the best move for his career but clearly a good move for his wallet!

Pubey said:

But that's suggesting that scouting is an exact science when it's not. If it was then we'd only sign good players because we'd know exactly how they'd perform!

The best way for Bentley to be evaluated is for him to get into the squad so he can be in the set-up 24/7 for a week and they can compare the players in training.

Back to my original point - if they are pinning their hat on Butland being the next England keeper after Hart then fine, keep him happy and pick him even though he's not playing. However I think there should be a bit of an incentive and reward for players who go on loan or whatever to get first team games and get international call-ups. Hart could feasibly be the England keeper for another 10 years and so why just focus on Butland and ignore the other potential keepers?

Butland took a big contract at Stoke to be a 2 or 3rd choice keeper, and I'm not sure that was the best move for his career but clearly a good move for his wallet!

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Big statement to make when he turned down Chelsea. He made 33 appearances last season, majority of them on loan to Championship clubs. He has made 100+ club appearances too. He is very unlucky to be at a club behind a top class keeper, who could be playing at a better club than Stoke IMO.

I'm not sure how you can say other keepers are being ignored when there are 2 more in the under 21 squad who are also getting games for them.

Pubey said:

But that's suggesting that scouting is an exact science when it's not. If it was then we'd only sign good players because we'd know exactly how they'd perform!

The best way for Bentley to be evaluated is for him to get into the squad so he can be in the set-up 24/7 for a week and they can compare the players in training.

Back to my original point - if they are pinning their hat on Butland being the next England keeper after Hart then fine, keep him happy and pick him even though he's not playing. However I think there should be a bit of an incentive and reward for players who go on loan or whatever to get first team games and get international call-ups. Hart could feasibly be the England keeper for another 10 years and so why just focus on Butland and ignore the other potential keepers?

Butland took a big contract at Stoke to be a 2 or 3rd choice keeper, and I'm not sure that was the best move for his career but clearly a good move for his wallet!

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Why would seeing Bentley training in the squad be any better than seeing him play in a real game for us ?

They picked Smith on less information than they have about Bentley, that speaks volumes to me.

Jam_Man said:

Why would seeing Bentley training in the squad be any better than seeing him play in a real game for us ?

They picked Smith on less information than they have about Bentley, that speaks volumes to me.

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Because they aren't seeing Butland playing in real games. His selection is on reputation and prior performance alone.

Also, they can't compare Bentley's performances at L2 level and how that would translate to international level and in a better team.

I'm not saying that Bentley should necessarily be in the squad. I just think it sends out mixed messages to pick a player who isn't playing.

chapperzUK said:

Big statement to make when he turned down Chelsea. He made 33 appearances last season, majority of them on loan to Championship clubs. He has made 100+ club appearances too. He is very unlucky to be at a club behind a top class keeper, who could be playing at a better club than Stoke IMO.

I'm not sure how you can say other keepers are being ignored when there are 2 more in the under 21 squad who are also getting games for them.

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He's not unlucky! He chose that move when Begovic and Sorensen were already an established incumbent first and second choice setup. If he felt he would usurp Begovic then he's deluded. Nearly two years later and he's still not breaking onto the bench. There's no footballing rationale to go from a club where you're playing week in week out to go to a club where you can't even get onto the bench. It's purely financial IMO.

I'm not necessarily saying that players are being ignored - but I think the time and effort that goes into scouting all potential players for our u21s (and England) is overstated. My point is that the FA will focus their scouting resources to look at players at the higher levels.

I've no idea how Ted Smith was scouted, and yes I can accept that on one level his call-up invalidates my argument - however I vaguely remember Ted Smith being invited to the setup (not a formal call-up) - maybe the U21s should be doing similar (if they're not already).

Pubey said:

He's not unlucky! He chose that move when Begovic and Sorensen were already an established incumbent first and second choice setup. If he felt he would usurp Begovic then he's deluded. Nearly two years later and he's still not breaking onto the bench. There's no footballing rationale to go from a club where you're playing week in week out to go to a club where you can't even get onto the bench. It's purely financial IMO.

I'm not necessarily saying that players are being ignored - but I think the time and effort that goes into scouting all potential players for our u21s (and England) is overstated. My point is that the FA will focus their scouting resources to look at players at the higher levels.

I've no idea how Ted Smith was scouted, and yes I can accept that on one level his call-up invalidates my argument - however I vaguely remember Ted Smith being invited to the setup (not a formal call-up) - maybe the U21s should be doing similar (if they're not already).

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Agree with a lot you say. Only rationale for moving to Stoke was money.

Pubey said:

Because they aren't seeing Butland playing in real games. His selection is on reputation and prior performance alone.

Also, they can't compare Bentley's performances at L2 level and how that would translate to international level and in a better team.

I'm not saying that Bentley should necessarily be in the squad. I just think it sends out mixed messages to pick a player who isn't playing.

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They didnt see Smith do anything and selected him, they have had the chance to watch Bentley 40 times and didnt select him.

That to me says they just dont think he is better than what they have. Just because Butland hasnt played in the last two months doesnt mean a lot, they already know how good he is.

If they are willing to choose one of our keepers and not the other it cant have anything to do with the club's level.

Jam_Man said:

They didnt see Smith do anything and selected him, they have had the chance to watch Bentley 40 times and didnt select him.

That to me says they just dont think he is better than what they have. Just because Butland hasnt played in the last two months doesnt mean a lot, they already know how good he is.

If they are willing to choose one of our keepers and not the other it cant have anything to do with the club's level.

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There's a big difference between U18 and U21 and how players are scouted and what level they're playing at. Hardly anyone in the U18 or U19 or U20 squad is a first team regular for a pro team.

Like I said, Ted Smith was invited as for a 'trial' before his call-up to the squad. So they had a much better opportunity to see him than the one or two games they might have watched Bentley play.

Found the thread, some genius started it! - http://www.shrimperzone.com/vb/show...led-up-to-England-goalkeeper-development-camp

Pubey said:

He's not unlucky! He chose that move when Begovic and Sorensen were already an established incumbent first and second choice setup. If he felt he would usurp Begovic then he's deluded. Nearly two years later and he's still not breaking onto the bench. There's no footballing rationale to go from a club where you're playing week in week out to go to a club where you can't even get onto the bench. It's purely financial IMO.

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Birmingham were in the financial ***** and were forced to sell him, so he had a choice and turned down Chelsea for Stoke where he thought he would have more chance of getting first team football. Since then he has been on loan a few times and could have easily sat in the stand collecting his wage.

Pubey said:

I'm not necessarily saying that players are being ignored - but I think the time and effort that goes into scouting all potential players for our u21s (and England) is overstated. My point is that the FA will focus their scouting resources to look at players at the higher levels.

I've no idea how Ted Smith was scouted, and yes I can accept that on one level his call-up invalidates my argument - however I vaguely remember Ted Smith being invited to the setup (not a formal call-up) - maybe the U21s should be doing similar (if they're not already).

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Of course they will focus their scouting on higher levels as that is where the majority of talent is. There are probably only a few in League 1 & 2 who could be considered, and if they do then they will be looked at.

IMO it seems rather pointless having Bentley invited to the England under 21s as there are the play-offs coming up and then next summer there is the actual tournament. Butland has been number 1 for the entire qualifiers, so it would be harsh to turn around and go "thanks for everything but we've chosen a League 2 keeper to replace you", especially as afterwards Butland will not be able to play for them again. It might be good experience for Bentley to be invited, but he will miss games with us and will have next to no chance in playing. Then after the summer, he will be ineligible to play for them.

Yes Ted was invited, but I doubt they just invite every young goalkeeper in the football leagues. It seems to be only for under 19s and below. 23 goalkeepers were invited to a 2 day training camp in January 2013, and it happened again in 2014.

http://www.thefa.com/england/archived/mens-u19s/news/2012/goalkeeping-camp-squads-181212

http://www.thefa.com/news/england/development/2013/dec/goalkeeping-camp-squads-announced-201213

chapperzUK said:

Birmingham were in the financial ***** and were forced to sell him, so he had a choice and turned down Chelsea for Stoke where he thought he would have more chance of getting first team football. Since then he has been on loan a few times and could have easily sat in the stand collecting his wage.

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I'm sure there would have been other clubs that would have taken him on, where he would have got more games.

It's always going to be hardest for a keeper to develop because they can play for a lot longer, and it make sense to have continuity of a keeper. There are only 92 #1 jerseys in the league and ever year there will be dozens of new keepers coming through.

Of course they will focus their scouting on higher levels as that is where the majority of talent is. There are probably only a few in League 1 & 2 who could be considered, and if they do then they will be looked at.

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yeah that's perfectly sensible - however when you have the anomaly of someone like Bentley being the only English keeper under 21 who's playing regularly then perhaps he's worth a look.

IMO it seems rather pointless having Bentley invited to the England under 21s as there are the play-offs coming up and then next summer there is the actual tournament. Butland has been number 1 for the entire qualifiers, so it would be harsh to turn around and go "thanks for everything but we've chosen a League 2 keeper to replace you", especially as afterwards Butland will not be able to play for them again. It might be good experience for Bentley to be invited, but he will miss games with us and will have next to no chance in playing. Then after the summer, he will be ineligible to play for them.

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yep accept that. my point is that in general we need to be clear what our objectives are. There are mixed messages at different levels (pick players on form, rush players up to the senior team, not much of a focus on the U21 tournaments etc) and there's a lot we can do to improve, and widening our net isn't a bad thing.

Yes Ted was invited, but I doubt they just invite every young goalkeeper in the football leagues. It seems to be only for under 19s and below. 23 goalkeepers were invited to a 2 day training camp in January 2013, and it happened again in 2014.

http://www.thefa.com/england/archived/mens-u19s/news/2012/goalkeeping-camp-squads-181212

http://www.thefa.com/news/england/development/2013/dec/goalkeeping-camp-squads-announced-201213

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I think these kinds of things should be happening a lot more. Make use of St Georges and get more players involved in national set ups and the benefit of top level coaching and training, rather than expecting clubs to do it. What better for talented under17/18s than to get an England training kit and the opportunity to meet some top players and boost their confidence as well. My view is that it's baffling that Daniel Bentley has got to the level he has at the age he has, and hasn't featured in any of the national youth teams yet.

Pubey said:

yeah that's perfectly sensible - however when you have the anomaly of someone like Bentley being the only English keeper under 21 who's playing regularly then perhaps he's worth a look.

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They have scouted him and if he was a year younger then I'm sure they would have considered doing that.

Pubey said:

yep accept that. my point is that in general we need to be clear what our objectives are. There are mixed messages at different levels (pick players on form, rush players up to the senior team, not much of a focus on the U21 tournaments etc) and there's a lot we can do to improve, and widening our net isn't a bad thing.

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Yes, objectives should be made clear, but they can be twisted by the media. It seems that as soon as we get a decent player emerge they are demanded to play in the full international team and have expectations dumped on their shoulders. Then when that fails everyone says we should have given them more time, but then the exact same thing happens again. I'd rather have a poor England team for 2/3 years and give the young talent the time and experience they need than keep being average.

Pubey said:

I think these kinds of things should be happening a lot more. Make use of St Georges and get more players involved in national set ups and the benefit of top level coaching and training, rather than expecting clubs to do it. What better for talented under17/18s than to get an England training kit and the opportunity to meet some top players and boost their confidence as well. My view is that it's baffling that Daniel Bentley has got to the level he has at the age he has, and hasn't featured in any of the national youth teams yet.

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Agree with that. It might be a good idea to invite a few who were close to selection, but didn't get the call-up, to train with the team (i.e. Bentley trains with the under 21s).

As for Daniel Bentley, it was said that he struggled in his first year as a scholar and it wasn't until his 2nd year that he started to show signs. I've heard several times that Ted Smith is better and further along in his development than Bentley was at his age, so it isn't that surprising that he hasn't feature yet.

top posting that. been an interesting discussion.

home time for me.

chapperzUK said:

As for Daniel Bentley, it was said that he struggled in his first year as a scholar and it wasn't until his 2nd year that he started to show signs. I've heard several times that Ted Smith is better and further along in his development than Bentley was at his age, so it isn't that surprising that he hasn't feature yet.

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Yep, different players develop at different rates. The best example I can think of is Chris Powell getting into the England team when he was 39 (or something close to that ..........)

And wasn't Dave Martin (the original Dave Martin) an England under 21 player? (And captain?). Which suggests early development doesn't always result in full development to the same level ............

its worth noting that Exeter had 2 players called up to the U20 side recently, so they definitely do have some grasp of lower league football.

Dan interesting forest now it seems;
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/fo...ier-League-Southend-goalkeeper-Daniel-Bentley

Question, Would you sell him in Jan to get a proven goalscorer in with the money?

Bkdside said:

Question, Would you sell him in Jan to get a proven goalscorer in with the money?

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Depends how ready we think Ted Smith is. Wouldn't fancy Paul Smith for the second half of the season to be honest.

Bkdside said:

Question, Would you sell him in Jan to get a proven goalscorer in with the money?

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Depends if Ted Smith is ready to step up to the first team. If we time the Dan Bentley sale perfectly, Ted will come straight in and pick up from where Bents left off. Only worry is that the Dan Bentley money will be filed away with the Eastwood money and we won't get our proven goalscorer.

If we can make an arrangement with someone in January to keep Dan to the end of the season then I'd be happy to go with that.