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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn

  
  1. #3511

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    Quote Originally Posted by londonblue View Post
    The reason I focus on it is because I am left wing. I find that left wingers in general will shout loudly against any form of racism (as do I) but will not do the same when it comes to anti-semitism. I find that strange and sad quite frankly.

    I have no interest in getting into an Israel debate, but will say that legitimate criticism of Israel is perfectly acceptable. It's when the lines are blurred (all too frequently) that it become an issue.

    I accept that fewer issues have been reported since that whitewash was produced, but brushing something under the carpet doesn't mean it has gone away. It just means it's not being reported.

    I'm glad you wouldn't associate yourself with any form of racism. Do you think Corduroy should? Or should he sever his links with organisations that allow it, or don't do enough to stop it?
    I would say that left wingers shout loudly against all forms of racism. Because of Israel there is probably some benefit of doubt given when some unacceptable language is used where those debates are concerned but in a broad perspective all racism is equally bad. I would express a similar perspective to you in that I am more disappointed if anything that could be deemed racist, sexist or homophobic comes from anyone associated with the left as I have higher expectations than of some other groupings.

    I would say that if fewer cases are being reported then the issue has probably been weeded out and dealt with to a large extent. There is no way the mainstream media will pass up an opportunity to attack Labour. No news is good news.


    I don't think Corbyn is associated with any racist groups as such. He has shared space with pro-Palestinian groups, some of which do not come out favourably to close scrutiny. But he is a pacifist (or as close to one as a politician can be) and always promotes negotiation over force. As far as most in that region are concerned Israel and Palestine are at war and in that situation they are not going to ensure their terminology fits in with the needs of some western liberal ethics.


    I think it needs to be sense checked though. Given the choice of someone who has actively supported people whose lives are blighted by living in disputed (or in some interpretations, occupied) territory and in that role associates with people who see themselves as at war and use the sensibilities or people at war. Or a government who arms and trains a Saudi regime despite their known human rights abuses and attacks on other territories. I'd chose the first guy.


    Yes we expect more from our own, but if we are openly over critical of our own then we just arm those that we wouldn't touch with a barge pole. I'm all for honing and improving the Labour Party but if that in any way assists the Tories then I'd rather do that behind closed doors.


    The things the Tories are getting away with while the press focus on Labour infighting is too extreme. Within a couple of weeks of Cameron quitting they had all rallied around, dropped any principles that did not fit an extreme party line and got on with dismantling everything that is good about our public services.


    By continued infighting we allow that to happen.

  2. #3512
    Certified Senior Citizen Tangled up in Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by londonblue View Post
    As it happens I will answer that question, even if you are studiously avoiding answering any yourself.

    I do have a focus on anti-semitism because it's the one form of racism that the left seem to have a blind spot for. The Stephen Lawrence inquiry report was very interesting in that it stated that it is up to the victim to decide whether or not they are offended by racists and racist material, and I don't think anyone would argue differently. Except they do, when it comes to anti-semitism. At that point everyone tells the victim he or she is wrong and that they're not anti-semitic.

    For me the political spectrum isn't a line, it's a circle with people on the extreme left and extreme right much closer than they would ever admit to
    . Especially when it comes to anti-semitism. That was shown by the tweet from that Labour councilor. He re-tweeted a neo nazi anti-semitic accusation, even saying it had some truth in it. He was only horrified with himself when he found out where the tweet originated from. The fact is, he actually agreed with it until then. That is very telling.

    Would you agree that re-tweeting that, and expressing those views is wrong? Would you associate yourself with people like that?
    This has been well documented in political science.It's known as the Horseshoe Theory.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
    "Burn neoliberalism,not people"

    Clive Lewis.MP.

  3. #3513

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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39191876

    There you have it ASS, one of the most intelligent men of our time has called it on your poster boy:
    "I regard Corbyn as a disaster.
    "His heart is in the right place and many of his policies are sound but he has allowed himself to be portrayed as a left-wing extremist.
    "I think he should step down for the sake of the party."

    Doubting such a mind would be todays equivalent of doubting Einstein.
    Remembering the scandal of "Stickersgate"

  4. #3514

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    Quote Originally Posted by superblue24 View Post
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39191876

    There you have it ASS, one of the most intelligent men of our time has called it on your poster boy:
    "I regard Corbyn as a disaster.
    "His heart is in the right place and many of his policies are sound but he has allowed himself to be portrayed as a left-wing extremist.
    "I think he should step down for the sake of the party."

    Doubting such a mind would be todays equivalent of doubting Einstein.
    As funny as I found this I wish people like him would keep out of politics. Just because you know about stars and planets doesn't mean you know about the economy and politics. IMO Hawking's an arse who should stick to what he knows.

  5. #3515

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Surrey Shrimper View Post
    I would say that left wingers shout loudly against all forms of racism. Because of Israel there is probably some benefit of doubt given when some unacceptable language is used where those debates are concerned but in a broad perspective all racism is equally bad. I would express a similar perspective to you in that I am more disappointed if anything that could be deemed racist, sexist or homophobic comes from anyone associated with the left as I have higher expectations than of some other groupings.

    I would say that if fewer cases are being reported then the issue has probably been weeded out and dealt with to a large extent. There is no way the mainstream media will pass up an opportunity to attack Labour. No news is good news.


    I don't think Corbyn is associated with any racist groups as such. He has shared space with pro-Palestinian groups, some of which do not come out favourably to close scrutiny. But he is a pacifist (or as close to one as a politician can be) and always promotes negotiation over force. As far as most in that region are concerned Israel and Palestine are at war and in that situation they are not going to ensure their terminology fits in with the needs of some western liberal ethics.


    I think it needs to be sense checked though. Given the choice of someone who has actively supported people whose lives are blighted by living in disputed (or in some interpretations, occupied) territory and in that role associates with people who see themselves as at war and use the sensibilities or people at war. Or a government who arms and trains a Saudi regime despite their known human rights abuses and attacks on other territories. I'd chose the first guy.


    Yes we expect more from our own, but if we are openly over critical of our own then we just arm those that we wouldn't touch with a barge pole. I'm all for honing and improving the Labour Party but if that in any way assists the Tories then I'd rather do that behind closed doors.


    The things the Tories are getting away with while the press focus on Labour infighting is too extreme. Within a couple of weeks of Cameron quitting they had all rallied around, dropped any principles that did not fit an extreme party line and got on with dismantling everything that is good about our public services.


    By continued infighting we allow that to happen.
    Actually, he's a patron of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign which allows very anti-semitic views to be expressed on its Facebook page. The Campaign Against Anti-Semitism have produced this report:

    CAA

    In fairness to the PSC, they have acknowledged this (they didn't really have any choice). However, the least I would expect from Corduroy is for him to sever his ties until they clean up their act. Funnily enough, I don't believe he has as yet. Personally I'm not holding my breath.

  6. #3516

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    Quote Originally Posted by superblue24 View Post
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39191876

    There you have it ASS, one of the most intelligent men of our time has called it on your poster boy:
    "I regard Corbyn as a disaster.
    "His heart is in the right place and many of his policies are sound but he has allowed himself to be portrayed as a left-wing extremist.
    "I think he should step down for the sake of the party."

    Doubting such a mind would be todays equivalent of doubting Einstein.
    I don't have poster boys I have poster girls - Kathleen Hannah and Natalie Portman.

    This is just so 'the way of the world'. Hawkings supported Corbyn and no media reported it. Eventually Hawkings withdrew his support for Corbyn despite thinking him a decent person and agreeing with his policies - but withdrew his support effectively because of the way he has 'allowed' himself to be portrayed in the media. And the media ALL report on it.

    Hands up who knows Hawkings has withdrawn his support for Corbyn.
    Now, hands up who knew that support was there in the first place.

    And that is very revealing.

  7. #3517

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    What the merry **** was today's PMQs performance all about? Is he on drugs?

  8. #3518
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastStandBlue View Post
    What the merry **** was today's PMQs performance all about? Is he on drugs?
    Clearly he'd prepared questions based on the NICs budget fiasco and hadn't heard about the U-turn until the last minute.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39278968

    Would agree that it demonstrates a worring lack of capacity to think on his feet.Sometimes I pine for Wislon.
    "Burn neoliberalism,not people"

    Clive Lewis.MP.

  9. #3519

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangled up in Blue View Post
    Clearly he'd prepared questions based on the NICs budget fiasco and hadn't heard about the U-turn until the last minute.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39278968


    Would agree that it demonstrates a worring lack of capacity to think on his feet.Sometimes I pine for Wislon.

    When the Guardian starts criticising his efficacity he's got problems.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...onal-insurance
    "Celui qui renonce à devenir meilleur cesse déjà d'être bon." L Pasteur

  10. #3520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangled up in Blue View Post
    I saw that in a poll of polls recently that the Tory lead was quoted as around 12%.I imagine we could probably agree on that.Expect that gap to close from next week onwards though.
    I simply cannot express how surprised I am that this closing of the gap has failed to materialise.
    There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  11. #3521

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremlin View Post
    I simply cannot express how surprised I am that this closing of the gap has failed to materialise.
    18th March 2016 was the first poll that put Labour ahead of the Tories with Corbyn as leader. Very soon after a leadership challenge was announced and Labour have trailed in the polls ever since. And in the week where the 2nd big budget U turn was announced (NIC rise dropped leaving £2billion black hole and now the grammar school pledge has been dropped) and a Tory MP takes over as editor of a newspaper - Tom Watson pops up to play the disunity card - poll gap created and maintained by the likes of Watson (and I voted for him as deputy - a position that is due a new election).

  12. #3522

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Surrey Shrimper View Post
    18th March 2016 was the first poll that put Labour ahead of the Tories with Corbyn as leader. Very soon after a leadership challenge was announced and Labour have trailed in the polls ever since. And in the week where the 2nd big budget U turn was announced (NIC rise dropped leaving £2billion black hole and now the grammar school pledge has been dropped) and a Tory MP takes over as editor of a newspaper - Tom Watson pops up to play the disunity card - poll gap created and maintained by the likes of Watson (and I voted for him as deputy - a position that is due a new election).
    yeah, couldn't be old Dear Leader's fault could it?

    We weren't level in the polls, we were level in one rogue poll. even Dumb and Dumber have never claimed we were ahead.

    And the 'coup', clearly that's the only political thing anyone has paid any attention to this last year. I mean, it might be musn't it, what else could possibly explain our poor poll ratings?

    And Watson was responding to a recording of a guy saying he wanted to take over the whole party and have our biggest financial backer affiliate to them instead.
    But yes, Watson's fault for speaking out. As we know now, only some mandates matter

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  13. #3523

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearded Shrimper View Post
    yeah, couldn't be old Dear Leader's fault could it?

    We weren't level in the polls, we were level in one rogue poll. even Dumb and Dumber have never claimed we were ahead.

    And the 'coup', clearly that's the only political thing anyone has paid any attention to this last year. I mean, it might be musn't it, what else could possibly explain our poor poll ratings?

    And Watson was responding to a recording of a guy saying he wanted to take over the whole party and have our biggest financial backer affiliate to them instead.
    But yes, Watson's fault for speaking out. As we know now, only some mandates matter
    yes it is partially the leaders fault, and yes I was referring to one particular poll so we are agreed there.
    But would you say Corbyn's performance has been worse over the last few months than the previous few months? Or May's particularly better? If not then the change in the polls from 'getting closer' to 'falling further behind' occurred after the 2nd leadership contest. A contest was always going to win as the majority of the membership back him.
    The recording was of a public meeting - no secrecy - and Len McClusky has said no discussions have taken place so it's just Lansman being a gobshite. Of course Momentum would like their people influencing all major decisions in the same way that Progress do. That is the point of a pressure group - to pressure to have influence. If Tom Watson has an issue with that he should discuss it with the shadow cabinet before going to the BBC. I feel he is being wilfully destructive and I'm glad you brought up mandates as his is overdue for renewal - and I speak as someone who voted him into that position.

  14. #3524

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Surrey Shrimper View Post
    yes it is partially the leaders fault, and yes I was referring to one particular poll so we are agreed there.
    But would you say Corbyn's performance has been worse over the last few months than the previous few months? Or May's particularly better? If not then the change in the polls from 'getting closer' to 'falling further behind' occurred after the 2nd leadership contest. A contest was always going to win as the majority of the membership back him.
    The recording was of a public meeting - no secrecy - and Len McClusky has said no discussions have taken place so it's just Lansman being a gobshite. Of course Momentum would like their people influencing all major decisions in the same way that Progress do. That is the point of a pressure group - to pressure to have influence. If Tom Watson has an issue with that he should discuss it with the shadow cabinet before going to the BBC. I feel he is being wilfully destructive and I'm glad you brought up mandates as his is overdue for renewal - and I speak as someone who voted him into that position.
    Yes. Yes I would. But even that isn't the point. The point is that the longer he goes on being ineffectual (even if he carries on that the same level of incompetence) the more people realise how crap he is and the more they desert the Labour party.

  15. #3525

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    Quote Originally Posted by londonblue View Post
    Yes. Yes I would. But even that isn't the point. The point is that the longer he goes on being ineffectual (even if he carries on that the same level of incompetence) the more people realise how crap he is and the more they desert the Labour party.
    that was in reply to Bearded's post really but please expand -in what way was his performance in the first few months that in the last few months?

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