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Are you serious? The guy retweeted an anti-Semitic accusation saying there is some truth in it. It was only when found out that it came from a neo Nazi that he did anything about it. He shouldn't need to know where it came from to know it is wrong. He should have just known. It's just another example of latent anti-Semitism in the Labour party.
as I said I just skimmed it as I spent a long time on the first link you asked me to look at where there were multiple articles. What were your thoughts on the Lib Dem Councillor?
 
as I said I just skimmed it as I spent a long time on the first link you asked me to look at where there were multiple articles. What were your thoughts on the Lib Dem Councillor?

Why would you expect me to answer any of your questions when you don't answer any of mine?
 
I have written more to you than I wrote in my uni dissertation (and I still scrapped a 2:2), yet you want me to write more? What has still not been covered?

With spelling like that I'm amazed you passed. I guess this also proves you misunderstood the points I made if you think you've already answered them.
 
With spelling like that I'm amazed you passed. I guess this also proves you misunderstood the points I made if you think you've already answered them.
Spelling has never been my strong point – I think with a dissertation they don’t get hung up on things like that and are more interested in your ability to research and formulate an argument. It was on the Spanish Civil War and how that was a missed opportunity to defeat fascism and therefore the rise of Hitler. Always been a subject of interest to me sparked by Orwell and led me to protest and fundraise for the Anti-Nazi League. A truncheon to the head when trying to march on the Nazi BNP headquarters in Welling was a memorable moment for me.

Out of interest is there a specific reason for your focus on anti-Semitism above other forms of racism?
 
Spelling has never been my strong point – I think with a dissertation they don’t get hung up on things like that and are more interested in your ability to research and formulate an argument. It was on the Spanish Civil War and how that was a missed opportunity to defeat fascism and therefore the rise of Hitler. Always been a subject of interest to me sparked by Orwell and led me to protest and fundraise for the Anti-Nazi League. A truncheon to the head when trying to march on the Nazi BNP headquarters in Welling was a memorable moment for me.

Out of interest is there a specific reason for your focus on anti-Semitism above other forms of racism?

As it happens I will answer that question, even if you are studiously avoiding answering any yourself.

I do have a focus on anti-semitism because it's the one form of racism that the left seem to have a blind spot for. The Stephen Lawrence inquiry report was very interesting in that it stated that it is up to the victim to decide whether or not they are offended by racists and racist material, and I don't think anyone would argue differently. Except they do, when it comes to anti-semitism. At that point everyone tells the victim he or she is wrong and that they're not anti-semitic.

For me the political spectrum isn't a line, it's a circle with people on the extreme left and extreme right much closer than they would ever admit to. Especially when it comes to anti-semitism. That was shown by the tweet from that Labour councilor. He re-tweeted a neo nazi anti-semitic accusation, even saying it had some truth in it. He was only horrified with himself when he found out where the tweet originated from. The fact is, he actually agreed with it until then. That is very telling.

Would you agree that re-tweeting that, and expressing those views is wrong? Would you associate yourself with people like that?
 
As it happens I will answer that question, even if you are studiously avoiding answering any yourself.

I do have a focus on anti-semitism because it's the one form of racism that the left seem to have a blind spot for. The Stephen Lawrence inquiry report was very interesting in that it stated that it is up to the victim to decide whether or not they are offended by racists and racist material, and I don't think anyone would argue differently. Except they do, when it comes to anti-semitism. At that point everyone tells the victim he or she is wrong and that they're not anti-semitic.

For me the political spectrum isn't a line, it's a circle with people on the extreme left and extreme right much closer than they would ever admit to. Especially when it comes to anti-semitism. That was shown by the tweet from that Labour councilor. He re-tweeted a neo nazi anti-semitic accusation, even saying it had some truth in it. He was only horrified with himself when he found out where the tweet originated from. The fact is, he actually agreed with it until then. That is very telling.

Would you agree that re-tweeting that, and expressing those views is wrong? Would you associate yourself with people like that?
I have replied to you at length.

I asked you what was outstanding in the Q&A and you failed to clarify. If you want to do that it may speed up the process.


Strange to focus on one form of racism and the fact you do that because you think the left has a blind spot there is very targeted. If you only seek out anti-Semitism in the left then you will lose any grasp on the scale of all other forms of racism and lose context.


There are a lot of Labour members who are very critical of the state of Israel and their policies towards Palestinians - many see that as a form of apartheid. Some people see criticism of Israel as criticism of Jews - if you do that then you will find lots of 'anti-Semitism' - I fundamentally disagree that is what criticism of Israel is. I believe you took the opposite view in one of the many other times this has been discussed. So we are looking at this from a different start point so unlikely to agree.


Your left / right circle may fit for the Labour Councillor with the retweet, but your first link also had a report of a Lib Dem Councillor who disputed the rights of a Jew to stand for office. As a liberal he would not be at your extremes but is the clearest example of anti-Semitism.


I would suggest that if you didn't just focus on the left you would see that since Shami's report there have been very few cases from the left reported - and at the same time in the wider world anti-Semitism along with other forms of racism is on the rise. I would suggest that your focus is flawed and you are under reporting from elsewhere.


No, I would not associate myself with any form of racism. In fact the only reason I joined Shrimperzone was because a prominent poster was criticising me on here for giving out anti-BNP literature at a Southend match, so I literally joined up to argue against racists (of all kinds).
 
I have replied to you at length.

I asked you what was outstanding in the Q&A and you failed to clarify. If you want to do that it may speed up the process.


Strange to focus on one form of racism and the fact you do that because you think the left has a blind spot there is very targeted. If you only seek out anti-Semitism in the left then you will lose any grasp on the scale of all other forms of racism and lose context.


There are a lot of Labour members who are very critical of the state of Israel and their policies towards Palestinians - many see that as a form of apartheid. Some people see criticism of Israel as criticism of Jews - if you do that then you will find lots of 'anti-Semitism' - I fundamentally disagree that is what criticism of Israel is. I believe you took the opposite view in one of the many other times this has been discussed. So we are looking at this from a different start point so unlikely to agree.


Your left / right circle may fit for the Labour Councillor with the retweet, but your first link also had a report of a Lib Dem Councillor who disputed the rights of a Jew to stand for office. As a liberal he would not be at your extremes but is the clearest example of anti-Semitism.


I would suggest that if you didn't just focus on the left you would see that since Shami's report there have been very few cases from the left reported - and at the same time in the wider world anti-Semitism along with other forms of racism is on the rise. I would suggest that your focus is flawed and you are under reporting from elsewhere.


No, I would not associate myself with any form of racism. In fact the only reason I joined Shrimperzone was because a prominent poster was criticising me on here for giving out anti-BNP literature at a Southend match, so I literally joined up to argue against racists (of all kinds).

The reason I focus on it is because I am left wing. I find that left wingers in general will shout loudly against any form of racism (as do I) but will not do the same when it comes to anti-semitism. I find that strange and sad quite frankly.

I have no interest in getting into an Israel debate, but will say that legitimate criticism of Israel is perfectly acceptable. It's when the lines are blurred (all too frequently) that it become an issue.

I accept that fewer issues have been reported since that whitewash was produced, but brushing something under the carpet doesn't mean it has gone away. It just means it's not being reported.

I'm glad you wouldn't associate yourself with any form of racism. Do you think Corduroy should? Or should he sever his links with organisations that allow it, or don't do enough to stop it?
 
The reason I focus on it is because I am left wing. I find that left wingers in general will shout loudly against any form of racism (as do I) but will not do the same when it comes to anti-semitism. I find that strange and sad quite frankly.

I have no interest in getting into an Israel debate, but will say that legitimate criticism of Israel is perfectly acceptable. It's when the lines are blurred (all too frequently) that it become an issue.

I accept that fewer issues have been reported since that whitewash was produced, but brushing something under the carpet doesn't mean it has gone away. It just means it's not being reported.

I'm glad you wouldn't associate yourself with any form of racism. Do you think Corduroy should? Or should he sever his links with organisations that allow it, or don't do enough to stop it?
I would say that left wingers shout loudly against all forms of racism. Because of Israel there is probably some benefit of doubt given when some unacceptable language is used where those debates are concerned but in a broad perspective all racism is equally bad. I would express a similar perspective to you in that I am more disappointed if anything that could be deemed racist, sexist or homophobic comes from anyone associated with the left as I have higher expectations than of some other groupings.

I would say that if fewer cases are being reported then the issue has probably been weeded out and dealt with to a large extent. There is no way the mainstream media will pass up an opportunity to attack Labour. No news is good news.


I don't think Corbyn is associated with any racist groups as such. He has shared space with pro-Palestinian groups, some of which do not come out favourably to close scrutiny. But he is a pacifist (or as close to one as a politician can be) and always promotes negotiation over force. As far as most in that region are concerned Israel and Palestine are at war and in that situation they are not going to ensure their terminology fits in with the needs of some western liberal ethics.


I think it needs to be sense checked though. Given the choice of someone who has actively supported people whose lives are blighted by living in disputed (or in some interpretations, occupied) territory and in that role associates with people who see themselves as at war and use the sensibilities or people at war. Or a government who arms and trains a Saudi regime despite their known human rights abuses and attacks on other territories. I'd chose the first guy.


Yes we expect more from our own, but if we are openly over critical of our own then we just arm those that we wouldn't touch with a barge pole. I'm all for honing and improving the Labour Party but if that in any way assists the Tories then I'd rather do that behind closed doors.


The things the Tories are getting away with while the press focus on Labour infighting is too extreme. Within a couple of weeks of Cameron quitting they had all rallied around, dropped any principles that did not fit an extreme party line and got on with dismantling everything that is good about our public services.


By continued infighting we allow that to happen.
 
As it happens I will answer that question, even if you are studiously avoiding answering any yourself.

I do have a focus on anti-semitism because it's the one form of racism that the left seem to have a blind spot for. The Stephen Lawrence inquiry report was very interesting in that it stated that it is up to the victim to decide whether or not they are offended by racists and racist material, and I don't think anyone would argue differently. Except they do, when it comes to anti-semitism. At that point everyone tells the victim he or she is wrong and that they're not anti-semitic.

For me the political spectrum isn't a line, it's a circle with people on the extreme left and extreme right much closer than they would ever admit to
. Especially when it comes to anti-semitism. That was shown by the tweet from that Labour councilor. He re-tweeted a neo nazi anti-semitic accusation, even saying it had some truth in it. He was only horrified with himself when he found out where the tweet originated from. The fact is, he actually agreed with it until then. That is very telling.

Would you agree that re-tweeting that, and expressing those views is wrong? Would you associate yourself with people like that?

This has been well documented in political science.It's known as the Horseshoe Theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39191876

There you have it ***, one of the most intelligent men of our time has called it on your poster boy:
"I regard Corbyn as a disaster.
"His heart is in the right place and many of his policies are sound but he has allowed himself to be portrayed as a left-wing extremist.
"I think he should step down for the sake of the party."

Doubting such a mind would be todays equivalent of doubting Einstein.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39191876

There you have it ***, one of the most intelligent men of our time has called it on your poster boy:
"I regard Corbyn as a disaster.
"His heart is in the right place and many of his policies are sound but he has allowed himself to be portrayed as a left-wing extremist.
"I think he should step down for the sake of the party."

Doubting such a mind would be todays equivalent of doubting Einstein.

As funny as I found this I wish people like him would keep out of politics. Just because you know about stars and planets doesn't mean you know about the economy and politics. IMO Hawking's an arse who should stick to what he knows.
 
I would say that left wingers shout loudly against all forms of racism. Because of Israel there is probably some benefit of doubt given when some unacceptable language is used where those debates are concerned but in a broad perspective all racism is equally bad. I would express a similar perspective to you in that I am more disappointed if anything that could be deemed racist, sexist or homophobic comes from anyone associated with the left as I have higher expectations than of some other groupings.

I would say that if fewer cases are being reported then the issue has probably been weeded out and dealt with to a large extent. There is no way the mainstream media will pass up an opportunity to attack Labour. No news is good news.


I don't think Corbyn is associated with any racist groups as such. He has shared space with pro-Palestinian groups, some of which do not come out favourably to close scrutiny. But he is a pacifist (or as close to one as a politician can be) and always promotes negotiation over force. As far as most in that region are concerned Israel and Palestine are at war and in that situation they are not going to ensure their terminology fits in with the needs of some western liberal ethics.


I think it needs to be sense checked though. Given the choice of someone who has actively supported people whose lives are blighted by living in disputed (or in some interpretations, occupied) territory and in that role associates with people who see themselves as at war and use the sensibilities or people at war. Or a government who arms and trains a Saudi regime despite their known human rights abuses and attacks on other territories. I'd chose the first guy.


Yes we expect more from our own, but if we are openly over critical of our own then we just arm those that we wouldn't touch with a barge pole. I'm all for honing and improving the Labour Party but if that in any way assists the Tories then I'd rather do that behind closed doors.


The things the Tories are getting away with while the press focus on Labour infighting is too extreme. Within a couple of weeks of Cameron quitting they had all rallied around, dropped any principles that did not fit an extreme party line and got on with dismantling everything that is good about our public services.


By continued infighting we allow that to happen.

Actually, he's a patron of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign which allows very anti-semitic views to be expressed on its Facebook page. The Campaign Against Anti-Semitism have produced this report:

CAA

In fairness to the PSC, they have acknowledged this (they didn't really have any choice). However, the least I would expect from Corduroy is for him to sever his ties until they clean up their act. Funnily enough, I don't believe he has as yet. Personally I'm not holding my breath.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39191876

There you have it ***, one of the most intelligent men of our time has called it on your poster boy:
"I regard Corbyn as a disaster.
"His heart is in the right place and many of his policies are sound but he has allowed himself to be portrayed as a left-wing extremist.
"I think he should step down for the sake of the party."

Doubting such a mind would be todays equivalent of doubting Einstein.
I don't have poster boys I have poster girls - Kathleen Hannah and Natalie Portman.

This is just so 'the way of the world'. Hawkings supported Corbyn and no media reported it. Eventually Hawkings withdrew his support for Corbyn despite thinking him a decent person and agreeing with his policies - but withdrew his support effectively because of the way he has 'allowed' himself to be portrayed in the media. And the media ALL report on it.

Hands up who knows Hawkings has withdrawn his support for Corbyn.
Now, hands up who knew that support was there in the first place.

And that is very revealing.
 
I saw that in a poll of polls recently that the Tory lead was quoted as around 12%.I imagine we could probably agree on that.Expect that gap to close from next week onwards though.

I simply cannot express how surprised I am that this closing of the gap has failed to materialise.
 
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