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Wouldn't say I'm hysterically anti-Cameron at all.I just think he's a slick PR man,that's all.

Really? for the most part, I've always seen PR as Cameron's biggest failing. Even when he has sound policy, he's very poor at selling it to the masses, and there don't appear to be many who actually 'like' him as a public figure. On the contrary, Cameron's longevity has been almost entirely due to the mediocrity of his competition, JC included.
 
Out of interest why 14 years, What about those killed in the first Iraq war ? Didnt that turn the Middle east against west? Didnt the forceful occupation of Palestine and the formation of the Israeli state by the West and their guilty conscience alienate Arabs ?
The disrespect for the Middle east for anything other than their natural resources has been around for years

Yes its all the wests fault. The Arabs must never take any responsibility for their actions because if we had left them alone they would all be living in a left wing liberal, pacifist Utopia. You seem to have forgotten the Iraq-Iran war or the fact that Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990. Which is why we ended up with the first Iraq war and the continuing mess that followed
 
Yes its all the wests fault. The Arabs must never take any responsibility for their actions because if we had left them alone they would all be living in a left wing liberal, pacifist Utopia. You seem to have forgotten the Iraq-Iran war or the fact that Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990. Which is why we ended up with the first Iraq war and the continuing mess that followed
I didnt say anything about responsibility, I was picking up on the comment about 14 years , and mentioned that it has been longer.
Sadam Hussein was a right wing dictator who invaded Kuwait, true.

Alo would it be possible not to resort to sneering provactive comments such as "left wing liberal pacifist utopia", it adds nothing to a balanced debate.
 
Really? for the most part, I've always seen PR as Cameron's biggest failing. Even when he has sound policy, he's very poor at selling it to the masses, and there don't appear to be many who actually 'like' him as a public figure. On the contrary, Cameron's longevity has been almost entirely due to the mediocrity of his competition, JC included.[/QUOTE]

FWIW,I don't think Cameron really believes in anything at all (apart from wealth).That's what makes him such a good Tory moderniser,IMO.

In that respect he's rather similar to Blair (apart from his strong religous views,obviously).

Jeremy Corbyn at least has principles (by the truckload).
 
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There is an honourable tradition of pacifism in the Labour movement going right back to the time when George Lansbury was leader of the PLP and before.

While I'm not a pacifist myself, I respect the views of people who are.As far as JC is concerned, I expect there'll be a free vote in the PLP,which will get him off the hook,this time at least.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34950778

Indeed, giving a free vote is his only way out. I'm not even sure that will save him in the long run.
 
Strange how a number of Tory MPs, including David Davies who was running for the leadership, are against the bombing - but no, it's the same old boring rubbish about Corbyn and his passifism. Wonder if those Tories will stick to their beliefs like Corbyn - I'm thinking none at all.
 
Strange how a number of Tory MPs, including David Davies who was running for the leadership, are against the bombing - but no, it's the same old boring rubbish about Corbyn and his passifism. Wonder if those Tories will stick to their beliefs like Corbyn - I'm thinking none at all.

Very, very few politicians (especially the new/young) will stick to their beliefs about anything, they will take the whip, want Cabinet jobs and want easy soundbites to get soft votes in the next GE. Sticking their heads above the parapet rarely happens with the grey, mundane and lacking of character lot that all sides are filled with - which, conversely, is part of the appeal, to many people, of JC, Boris and Salmon.
 
Very, very few politicians (especially the new/young) will stick to their beliefs about anything, they will take the whip, want Cabinet jobs and want easy soundbites to get soft votes in the next GE. Sticking their heads above the parapet rarely happens with the grey, mundane and lacking of character lot that all sides are filled with - which, conversely, is part of the appeal, to many people, of JC, Boris and Salmon.

I prefer Tuna.
 
Out of interest why 14 years, What about those killed in the first Iraq war ? Didnt that turn the Middle east against west? Didnt the forceful occupation of Palestine and the formation of the Israeli state by the West and their guilty conscience alienate Arabs ?
The disrespect for the Middle east for anything other than their natural resources has been around for years


Since Bush and Blair told lies and invaded Iraq,the Islamic terrorist attacks on mainland Europe have spiked.
 
Since Bush and Blair told lies and invaded Iraq,the Islamic terrorist attacks on mainland Europe have spiked.

You seem to be giving the terrorists a pass. In Iraq, the Islamic State beheaded a female dentist, her crime....She treated male patients. These people are killing anyone that believes in a different God, anyone that upsets them, anyone that doesn't follow their made up rules, any woman or girl that gets raped( It's all her fault apparently for tempting the men). Any different tribe.
You can't keep blaming the West. They were doing these things long before Bush and Blair, but under a different banner. If no one stops them, they will continue to murder their way across countries, wiping out villages, towns, creating even more migration.
 
You seem to be giving the terrorists a pass. In Iraq, the Islamic State beheaded a female dentist, her crime....She treated male patients. These people are killing anyone that believes in a different God, anyone that upsets them, anyone that doesn't follow their made up rules, any woman or girl that gets raped( It's all her fault apparently for tempting the men). Any different tribe.
You can't keep blaming the West. They were doing these things long before Bush and Blair, but under a different banner. If no one stops them, they will continue to murder their way across countries, wiping out villages, towns, creating even more migration.

But these murderous cults didn't have a worldwide pool of disaffected youth to pick on.

America was quite happy to shake the Taliban's hand pre 9/11 to get their oil. They trained the Muhaddjin to fight The Soviets in the 80s and then, needing someone to blame for 9/11 they invaded Afghan despite all evidence showing that those who killed thousands came from Saudi Arabia.

Thousands upon thousands of innocent people have been killed by American & Western bombs and drones. This hatred of the west and its indiscriminate slaughter has fuelled these death cults so some Muslim youth feel it is their duty to fight back at those who had educated and housed them - this is also fueled by online propaganda and Imams who preach a very bloody interpretation of the Koran.

50 years of a corrupt and selfish foreign policy by our own, the US and other Western governments have brought us to where we are today.

We're now probably going to bomb Syria and kill a few more thousand innocent people - and just a handful of ISIS recruits. Lets pray that those disaffected youth don't strap on some nail bombs, grab some AK47s and do another Paris here in London, Milton Keynes, Southend or anywhere.
 
But these murderous cults didn't have a worldwide pool of disaffected youth to pick on.

America was quite happy to shake the Taliban's hand pre 9/11 to get their oil. They trained the Muhaddjin to fight The Soviets in the 80s and then, needing someone to blame for 9/11 they invaded Afghan despite all evidence showing that those who killed thousands came from Saudi Arabia.

Thousands upon thousands of innocent people have been killed by American & Western bombs and drones. This hatred of the west and its indiscriminate slaughter has fuelled these death cults so some Muslim youth feel it is their duty to fight back at those who had educated and housed them - this is also fueled by online propaganda -it's been used in every war since Agincourt and before.

50 years of a corrupt and selfish foreign policy by our own, the US and other Western governments have brought us to where we are today.

We're now probably going to bomb Syria and kill a few more thousand innocent people - and just a handful of ISIS recruits.


Excellent post MK.

May I add the West believe dropping bombs from 30,000 feet which with out question kill innocent people will solve the situation is utterly barking mad,General Melchiot type response.

For decades the West have installed leaders only to turn their back on them,the West sell arms by the truckload whilst strutting their stuff yet ignoring the madness in other parts of the world.The ME loaded with oil and opium,now if they never had these valuable commodities would the a West give a damn,of course not.
 
Excellent post MK.

May I add the West believe dropping bombs from 30,000 feet which with out question kill innocent people will solve the situation is utterly barking mad,General Melchiot type response.

For decades the West have installed leaders only to turn their back on them,the West sell arms by the truckload whilst strutting their stuff yet ignoring the madness in other parts of the world.The ME loaded with oil and opium,now if they never had these valuable commodities would the a West give a damn,of course not.

Indeed. I don't see Obama or Cameron wanting to drop bombs on Boko Haram, an equally vile and murderous bunch of scum as ISIS.
 
You seem to be giving the terrorists a pass. In Iraq, the Islamic State beheaded a female dentist, her crime....She treated male patients. These people are killing anyone that believes in a different God, anyone that upsets them, anyone that doesn't follow their made up rules, any woman or girl that gets raped( It's all her fault apparently for tempting the men). Any different tribe.
You can't keep blaming the West. They were doing these things long before Bush and Blair, but under a different banner. If no one stops them, they will continue to murder their way across countries, wiping out villages, towns, creating even more migration.


We all know the ME is often a cruel uninviting hostile place,but the only people who will change it is the people of those countries,that's if they actually want to change their way of life.Saddam and Gadaffi kept their people in relative check,since their demise it's been utter chaos aided and abetted by the West.

Common sense would dictate that if any British folk wish to go to Syria or wherever then surely that is their choice,instead we have the government fannying about whilst the police issue nationwide pleas in finding them,let them go without ever returning to Europe or Britain,they made their bed so they have to lay in that bed.
 
But these murderous cults didn't have a worldwide pool of disaffected youth to pick on.

America was quite happy to shake the Taliban's hand pre 9/11 to get their oil. They trained the Muhaddjin to fight The Soviets in the 80s and then, needing someone to blame for 9/11 they invaded Afghan despite all evidence showing that those who killed thousands came from Saudi Arabia.

Thousands upon thousands of innocent people have been killed by American & Western bombs and drones. This hatred of the west and its indiscriminate slaughter has fuelled these death cults so some Muslim youth feel it is their duty to fight back at those who had educated and housed them - this is also fueled by online propaganda and Imams who preach a very bloody interpretation of the Koran.

50 years of a corrupt and selfish foreign policy by our own, the US and other Western governments have brought us to where we are today.

We're now probably going to bomb Syria and kill a few more thousand innocent people - and just a handful of ISIS recruits. Lets pray that those disaffected youth don't strap on some nail bombs, grab some AK47s and do another Paris here in London, Milton Keynes, Southend or anywhere.

Don't want to go to far off topic but we have certainly not seen all the evidence. As more has come to light, I believe that rather than just blaming Saudi's we should also be looking at Americans and Israeli's especially the ones with dual nationality.
 
do you know many Iraqis (again!)


What has that got to do with anything,I don't know any Irish folk but still managed to work out "the troubles" was crazy,likewise I don't know any Americans but again somehow I thought their gun law is mad.

Violence only breeds more violence.
 
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