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Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

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Another Surrey Shrimper said:
To say that Israel is only of interest to anti-Semites is a crazy negative thing to say and is in a massive insult for those who campaign for the fair treatment of Palestinians.


Yes there are anti-Semites but to say they are the only people with an interest in Israel is a bizarre world view.





The Labour Party investigation is being headed by Shami Chakrabarti which I think is as good an appointment as you could hope for in such things and prejudging the outcome is understandable for specific interest groups but hopefully patience will be rewarded.
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You need to read the accepted definition of anti demotion then. However, as I said, I hope their cynicism is unfounded...

It's also worth pointing out I was talking about the excessive criticism, and questioning Israel's right to exist, not people who "have an interest".
 
londonblue said:
You need to read the accepted definition of anti demotion then. However, as I said, I hope their cynicism is unfounded...

It's also worth pointing out I was talking about the excessive criticism, and questioning Israel's right to exist, not people who "have an interest".
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You keep telling people to read the accepted definition - any perceived racism is only a big problem if it is intended to cause offence. If someone talks of Zionism in a way that is not intended to cause offence then maybe just let it go because if they don't intend to cause a problem then they are probably not causing a problem. The 'race card' is a horrible concept but your approach is verging on the 'don't mention Israel' and when that happens elsewhere people get accused of playing the race card. At some point you have to step back and mark a differential between those who are looking to offend Jews and those who are looking to hold Israel to account.
 
Another Surrey Shrimper said:
You keep telling people to read the accepted definition - any perceived racism is only a big problem if it is intended to cause offence. If someone talks of Zionism in a way that is not intended to cause offence then maybe just let it go because if they don't intend to cause a problem then they are probably not causing a problem. The 'race card' is a horrible concept but your approach is verging on the 'don't mention Israel' and when that happens elsewhere people get accused of playing the race card. At some point you have to step back and mark a differential between those who are looking to offend Jews and those who are looking to hold Israel to account.
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I've never said legitimate criticism of Israel isn't allowed. I've said the left's excessive criticism, and questioning its right to exist is wrong, and that (according to the accepted definition) is anti Semitic. It doesn't matter what the intention is, if you offend then it is wrong.

We've even agreed that on other forms of racism, where it has been discussed that it's up to the victim to tell you if you've offended them, not for the perpetrator to say that a) they didn't mean it to be offensive, and b) the victim is wrong.
 
Massimo Giovanni said:
Dead man walking, JC will be gone by Christmas.









If another candidate steps forward.
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They'll be plenty of Blairites who'll chop off their arm to follow their "great leader" I'm sure. However, many thousands of supporters will burn their membership cards in protest if they return to the right-of-centre (me included).

However the LC elections were hardly the disaster that was predicted - in fact Labour will have a majority in Wales, so I can see JC being there at the 2020 elections.
 
MK Shrimper said:
They'll be plenty of Blairites who'll chop off their arm to follow their "great leader" I'm sure. Many thousands of supporters will burn their membership cards (me included).

However the LC elections were hardly the disaster that was predicted - in fact Labour will have a majority in Wales, so I can see JC being there at the 2020 elections.
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Indeed, the results weren't as bad as feared and of course at some point over the weekend a Labour man will be confirmed as Mayor of London.

However, that shows how far expectations have fallen. The main opposition should be giving a deservedly unpopular government more of a kicking than this.

Third in Scotland too, although it would be harsh to pin much of that on Corbyn. The SNP are a juggernaut now.
 
MK Shrimper said:
However the LC elections were hardly the disaster that was predicted - in fact Labour will have a majority in Wales, so I can see JC being there at the 2020 elections.
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Indeed. And that in the long run is a good thing. Regardless of your political leanings having a strong opposition is important.
 
Tangled up in Blue said:
I quite liked one of the reader's comments immediately below the article:-ID3218589

"Shabby piece of journalism. Rehash of pre local election negatives, despite the outcome being different to that predicted. Don't you have any original thoughts?"
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Funny, I liked this one....

...at the risk of being menaced by twitter mobs of diehard Corbynistas bearing pitch-forks and crying “heresy” and “treachery”
​
How can Cameron fail with opposition like this?
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Benfleet A1 said:
So losing seats was a victory then?
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Only 28 seats (in total) from a high water mark under Miliband in 2012.Labour certainly didn't lose anything like the 150 plus council seats that many were predicting.Great wins in London and Bristol.Hanging on to places like Exeter and Crawley was also impressive.

Plenty of time (and room ) for consolidation and improvement,however.
 
Tangled up in Blue said:
Only 28 seats (in total) from a high water mark under Miliband in 2012.Labour certainly didn't lose anything like the 150 plus council seats that many were predicting.Great wins in London and Bristol.Hanging on to places like Exeter and Crawley was also impressive.

Plenty of time (and room ) for consolidation and improvement,however.
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Hanging on. There you have it. At this point in the electoral cycle, particularly with this bunch in charge, the main opposition should be hoovering up seats all over the place, not merely being content with 'hanging on'.
 
Uncle Leo said:
Hanging on. There you have it. At this point in the electoral cycle, particularly with this bunch in charge, the main opposition should be hoovering up seats all over the place, not merely being content with 'hanging on'.
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Disagree.It's less than a year since JC was elected leader and only a year since an an awful GE result for Labour.

Still 4 years left to turn things around.
 
Tangled up in Blue said:
Disagree.It's less than a year since JC was elected leader and only a year since an an awful GE result for Labour.

Still 4 years left to turn things around.
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Take your time Jezza. Take your time.

Just because you want something to happen, doesn't make it more likely. I'd love for England to win Euro 2016, but I don't go around blindly assuming that's how things will pan out just because that's what would make me happiest.
 
Uncle Leo said:
Take your time Jezza. Take your time.

Just because you want something to happen, doesn't make it more likely. I'd love for England to win Euro 2016, but I don't go around blindly assuming that's how things will pan out just because that's what would make me happiest.
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I know full well that England won't win Euro 2016.I don't know that JC won't win in 2020.As I said there are still 4 years to go.Things can only get worse for the Tories.
 
Tangled up in Blue said:
I know full well that England won't win Euro 2016.I don't know that JC won't win in 2020.As I said there are still 4 years to go.Things can only get worse for the Tories.
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I guess most of us were perplexed that Labours new energised vote that Corbyn was supposed to bring, didn't materialise.

It wasn't the worst of nights for any political party in fairness, which is worrying when you consider the current shower in Government.
 
Tangled up in Blue said:
Only 28 seats (in total) from a high water mark under Miliband in 2012.Labour certainly didn't lose anything like the 150 plus council seats that many were predicting.Great wins in London and Bristol.Hanging on to places like Exeter and Crawley was also impressive.

Plenty of time (and room ) for consolidation and improvement,however.
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You seem to be putting rather a gloss on a poor showing. Let's go back to that Guardian article:

Some Corbynista apologists have chosen to conveniently forget that they previously promised that they had the elixir for success and now argue that roughly breaking even is good enough for Labour at this stage of the cycle. It is not. It really, really is not. We are in the sixth year of David Cameron’s premiership. Tories are gouging out each other’s eyes over Europe. The government has been stumbling from Budget blunder via doctors’ strike and Cabinet resignation to academies U-turn. Yet the principal party of opposition has just lost council seats. That’s the first time that has happened in a non-general election year in more than three decades. The last time was in 1985, and it was the harbinger of a landslide Labour defeat at the next general election. Another useful metric is to compare these results with how previous opposition leaders performed the first time they took their parties into May elections. I’ve reviewed the history of these contests over the past 51 years. On every occasion, the opposition gained seats in the first council elections fought under a new leader. It did so whether the leader was a future general election winner like David Cameron or Tony Blair, or a future general election loser like Michael Foot and Michael Howard. Ed Miliband gained more than 800 seats in 2011. Jeremy Corbyn is the only leader of the opposition to lose council seats in his first electoral test in more than half a century.
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