Tunisia massacre

Just a thought but is it just me that thinks the Muslim community in this country isn't and never has been a vocal as it should be in condemning these atrocities?

Isn't the appalling silence by the Muslim Council leaders all but subconsciously condoning these actions. I've watched a lot of news about the latest barbaric terrorist act but honestly can't remember seeing one Muslim leader on TV condemning it or in fact reading anything on line (I don't read newspapers) doing the same.

Part of that problem lies with the powers that be in this country too damn scared to tell it like it is in fear of being accused of being racist and tarring all with the same brush.

Bielzibubz said:

Just a thought but is it just me that thinks the Muslim community in this country isn't and never has been a vocal as it should be in condemning these atrocities?

Isn't the appalling silence by the Muslim Council leaders all but subconsciously condoning these actions. I've watched a lot of news about the latest barbaric terrorist act but honestly can't remember seeing one Muslim leader on TV condemning it or in fact reading anything on line (I don't read newspapers) doing the same.

Part of that problem lies with the powers that be in this country too damn scared to tell it like it is in fear of being accused of being racist and tarring all with the same brush.

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What, you mean like this? http://www.mcb.org.uk/mcb-condemns-day-of-violence/

Perhaps you're the one tarring everyone with the same broad brush?

Bielzibubz said:

Just a thought but is it just me that thinks the Muslim community in this country isn't and never has been a vocal as it should be in condemning these atrocities?

Isn't the appalling silence by the Muslim Council leaders all but subconsciously condoning these actions. I've watched a lot of news about the latest barbaric terrorist act but honestly can't remember seeing one Muslim leader on TV condemning it or in fact reading anything on line (I don't read newspapers) doing the same.

Part of that problem lies with the powers that be in this country too damn scared to tell it like it is in fear of being accused of being racist and tarring all with the same brush.

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There is NO "appalling silence" from the Muslim community, it's just that the British Media, which controls what is broadcast as standard in this country, chooses not to show the reaction of the majority of peace and law abiding Muslims.

What chance has anyone got of beating an ideology that promises 2 things that some men want or would like, eternal life, and 72 virgins for sex. There will always be men stupid enough, or brainwashed to believe this cr ap. Plus, it's not all learned from the dark internet, a lot of it is spread face to face. By the way, copy and pasted......... Nothing in the Koran specifically states that the faithful are allotted 72 virgins apiece. For this elaboration we turn to the hadith, traditional sayings traced with varying degrees of credibility to Muhammad. Hadith number 2,562 in the collection known as the Sunan al-Tirmidhi says, "The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby."
So it was then later changed to 72 virgins, to suit.

I was really pleased that a lot of Tunisian people have spoken out, and demonstrated on the streets against the attack.
Most Christians and non believers are not against all Muslims, it's just the murderous radical ones we are against. These horrific murderous attacks on innocent people going about their business, have been going on for years. And we all know that it's not a case of if another one will happen, it's just a case of when and where.

Yorkshire Blue said:

And what about it from the other way round? Would you class it as successful if we stop a couple of jokers like Choudary preaching but end up radicalising hundreds of previously moderate Muslims who become disillusioned with being discriminated against on a daily basis and that makes them susceptible to being recruited by ISIS?

You only have to see what happened in Northern Ireland.

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A couple of jokers? These people have the ability to corrupt young, vulnerable minds into committing atrocious attacks against innocent people. They have regularly spouted hate, death & destruction against the very country that they reside in. They don't sound like jokers to me, they sound a very dangerous & credible threat to all of us.

Please show, with workings, how you came to your conclusion? The majority of Muslims are peaceful. They themselves try to distance these type of people from their religion. So if we take the likes of Choudary off the streets, why do you envisage a sudden widespread radicalisation & subsequent uprising in the Muslim community? It's not the (for lack of a better word) "innocent" Muslims you're discriminating against, afterall.

Lastly, let me ask you this, what would YOU do with the likes of Choudary & those hate preachers? Ignore them? Allow them to carry on?

THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK said:

I was really pleased that a lot of Tunisian people have spoken out, and demonstrated on the streets against the attack.
Most Christians and non believers are not against all Muslims, it's just the murderous radical ones we are against. These horrific murderous attacks on innocent people going about their business, have been going on for years. And we all know that it's not a case of if another one will happen, it's just a case of when and where.

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Reported on SKY this morning that there has been several incidents which were never placed in the public domain,2 IS armed blokes were shot dead only days before the beach attack,they were killed by security forces only 1 mile from the beach attack hotel,other incidents were all terrorist related.The guy telling these stories also said Tunisia is never a holiday destination as its rife with nutters who want to kill westerners.

mrsblue said:

Reported on SKY this morning that there has been several incidents which were never placed in the public domain,2 IS armed blokes were shot dead only days before the beach attack,they were killed by security forces only 1 mile from the beach attack hotel,other incidents were all terrorist related.The guy telling these stories also said Tunisia is never a holiday destination as its rife with nutters who want to kill westerners.

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Warning.Watching Sky News can seriously damage your intelligence.:winking:

RobM said:

..but the Dark Web could be shut down. Could it not?

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The whole point of the Dark Web is that it is largely anonymous and incredibly difficult for organisations like the FBI to track down, unlike Shrimperzone you can't just type in the URL to access it, you need someone to give you specific software and authroization codes to even be able to view the home page. Websites are shut down if the authorities can get past the security in place but ultimately much like the black market if one supplier gets shut down two more will appear to fill the gap in the market.

southendkid said:

The whole point of the Dark Web is that it is largely anonymous and incredibly difficult for organisations like the FBI to track down, unlike Shrimperzone you can't just type in the URL to access it, you need someone to give you specific software and authroization codes to even be able to view the home page. Websites are shut down if the authorities can get past the security in place but ultimately much like the black market if one supplier gets shut down two more will appear to fill the gap in the market.

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As far as I understand, the dark web was also originally created by the US military so that they could use the web without being identified. The problem, however, was that everyone would know it was them because they were the only ones using it, so they had to “open” it up to others.

You therefore have something that was created by the US military that even the US security services (e.g. the FBI) can’t penetrate!

southendkid said:

The whole point of the Dark Web is that it is largely anonymous and incredibly difficult for organisations like the FBI to track down, unlike Shrimperzone you can't just type in the URL to access it, you need someone to give you specific software and authroization codes to even be able to view the home page. Websites are shut down if the authorities can get past the security in place but ultimately much like the black market if one supplier gets shut down two more will appear to fill the gap in the market.

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Someone knows a little too much about it :whistling:

Bielzibubz said:

Just a thought but is it just me that thinks the Muslim community in this country isn't and never has been a vocal as it should be in condemning these atrocities?

Isn't the appalling silence by the Muslim Council leaders all but subconsciously condoning these actions. I've watched a lot of news about the latest barbaric terrorist act but honestly can't remember seeing one Muslim leader on TV condemning it or in fact reading anything on line (I don't read newspapers) doing the same.

Part of that problem lies with the powers that be in this country too damn scared to tell it like it is in fear of being accused of being racist and tarring all with the same brush.

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I guess their argument to that would be because you're white, you should be very vocal in defending the white racist who killed all those black people in the church in America? I know it's not as simple as this and I think more can be done, but you have to see it from their view.

GBJ said:

A couple of jokers? These people have the ability to corrupt young, vulnerable minds into committing atrocious attacks against innocent people. They have regularly spouted hate, death & destruction against the very country that they reside in. They don't sound like jokers to me, they sound a very dangerous & credible threat to all of us.

Please show, with workings, how you came to your conclusion? The majority of Muslims are peaceful. They themselves try to distance these type of people from their religion. So if we take the likes of Choudary off the streets, why do you envisage a sudden widespread radicalisation & subsequent uprising in the Muslim community? It's not the (for lack of a better word) "innocent" Muslims you're discriminating against, afterall.

Lastly, let me ask you this, what would YOU do with the likes of Choudary & those hate preachers? Ignore them? Allow them to carry on?

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I'd largely do what's been done since 2007.

I think worrying about them is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more you make a big fuss about them doing silly publicity stunts such as burning poppies the more you give them legitimacy and make them a rallying point for the disaffected. The last thing you want to do in this is create martyrs to the cause.

The mindless, thuggish behaviour of the EDL and their sympathisers who will push more towards radical Islam than the pull of a minor figure like Choudary. It's the EDL and their like who give credence to some of their outlandish claims like you can't be a practising Muslim in the UK by opposing Mosques, intimidating and threatening Muslims and make claims that there are no-go area for whites (which certainly came as a surprise to me happily living in one of those areas). That is what radicalises people far more than the preachings of one or two extremists.

As for working, look at what happened in Northern Ireland when the security forces tried to crackdown in the early 70s (late 60s?). That worked well didn't it.

Yorkshire Blue said:

I'd largely do what's been done since 2007.

I think worrying about them is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more you make a big fuss about them doing silly publicity stunts such as burning poppies the more you give them legitimacy and make them a rallying point for the disaffected. The last thing you want to do in this is create martyrs to the cause.

The mindless, thuggish behaviour of the EDL and their sympathisers who will push more towards radical Islam than the pull of a minor figure like Choudary. It's the EDL and their like who give credence to some of their outlandish claims like you can't be a practising Muslim in the UK by opposing Mosques, intimidating and threatening Muslims and make claims that there are no-go area for whites (which certainly came as a surprise to me happily living in one of those areas). That is what radicalises people far more than the preachings of one or two extremists.

As for working, look at what happened in Northern Ireland when the security forces tried to crackdown in the early 70s (late 60s?). That worked well didn't it.

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Spot on here. EDL only serve to divide communities and alienate Muslims. I think it's a safe assumption that they are doing just as much to radicalise as the hate preachers.

kingSHRIMPER said:

Spot on here. EDL only serve to divide communities and alienate Muslims. I think it's a safe assumption that they are doing just as much to radicalise as the hate preachers.

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Just remind me how many EDL radicals have become suicide bombers and slaughtered sunbathers with kalashnikovs. The exact number escapes me.

No Islam to see here, let's move on.

Genial Harry Grout said:

Just remind me how many EDL radicals have become suicide bombers and slaughtered sunbathers with kalashnikovs. The exact number escapes me.

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You're missing the point, the way extremists radicalise Muslims is by claiming that the whole of the West is intolerant of their religion and wants to wipe them out. The EDL making threats and attacks against innocent Muslims that have nothing to do with terrorism is used as 'proof' that the UK hates Islam and so their extremist actions are justified.

Genial Harry Grout said:

Just remind me how many EDL radicals have become suicide bombers and slaughtered sunbathers with kalashnikovs. The exact number escapes me.

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Can you not see how an Asian guy in Luton suffering abuse from EDL could be swayed by hate preachers? The EDL play into their hands, "don't suffer the anti muslim abuse, come to us". It's not a left wing stance, it's a common sense stance. There is nothing wrong with standing up and saying the terror is wrong, it quite obviously is, but the EDL has it's roots in thuggery and hooliganism, they want a fight basically.

Yorkshire Blue said:

I'd largely do what's been done since 2007.

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So, nothing then? Ignore it & pretend it isn't happening? I wonder what our forefathers would think about that. You know, the ones who gave their lives, protecting our freedom against those who'd oppose our way of life?

I think worrying about them is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more you make a big fuss about them doing silly publicity stunts such as burning poppies the more you give them legitimacy and make them a rallying point for the disaffected. The last thing you want to do in this is create martyrs to the cause.

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So, in the meantime, we just sit back, hold our tongues & accept these type of offensive events?

And I'm glad you see the burning of poppies as "silly publicity stunts", but I see it as a desecration of our collective families history, struggle & suffering they went through. Our bloodline fought & died to give us a future. And you repay them, by displaying apathy towards the desecration of their symbol.

The mindless, thuggish behaviour of the EDL and their sympathisers who will push more towards radical Islam than the pull of a minor figure like Choudary. It's the EDL and their like who give credence to some of their outlandish claims like you can't be a practising Muslim in the UK by opposing Mosques, intimidating and threatening Muslims and make claims that there are no-go area for whites (which certainly came as a surprise to me happily living in one of those areas). That is what radicalises people far more than the preachings of one or two extremists.

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The EDL weren't infiltrating mosques, trying to brainwash innocent Muslims. Hamza did. Choudary still does & there's undoubtedly many more who currently do so. We have ignored these people & let them carry on

The EDL were born out of this country's weak attitude towards stopping these hatemongers. Lennon & his football pals formed it, after the parade in Luton (2009 IIRC) where troops returning home, were spat on & abused. If our authorities had clamped down on examples like this, aswell as people like yourself showing a little less apathy towards the hatred & violence directed at US, then maybe the EDL wouldn't have been formed? Who knows.

Quite simply, these events mentioned, wouldn't have happened in America or Australia. Probably many others aswell. But we let it happen. And the perpetrators (this includes the EDL) can hide behind the "freedom of speech" bollocks, totally free from any substantial prosecution.

As it is, I'd quite happily see both the EDL & Choudhry's lot banned from carrying out all public demos & marches.

As for working, look at what happened in Northern Ireland when the security forces tried to crackdown in the early 70s (late 60s?). That worked well didn't it.

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As I don't know enough about the subject, I couldn't comment on it fairly.

GBJ said:

Quite simply, these events mentioned, wouldn't have happened in America or Australia. Probably many others aswell. But we let it happen. And the perpetrators (this includes the EDL) can hide behind the "freedom of speech" bollocks, totally free from any substantial prosecution.

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So the Westboro baptist church pickets the funerals of dead American soldiers (amongst others) calling them "faggots", so yes it does happen, just not by Muslims.