why won't Payne fit into the team?

Why does everyone say Jack can't fit into the team, most of our positive play comes through him, I would have him first on the teamsheet, not lenny who seems to have something on PB

Odd shaped head?

Central attacking midfield has become quite a specialised position in the lower leagues. Brown got a bit excited with his team selection yesterday, once he has found his best side then Payne might be able to fit in. Luckily for him our lack of striking options means we might need to play more 4 4 1 1.

He will fit into the team, as long as we dont play 442.

You might prefer him over Leonard, but they play two completely different roles.

Southend Elvis said:

Why does everyone say Jack can't fit into the team, most of our positive play comes through him, I would have him first on the teamsheet, not lenny who seems to have something on PB

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Payne was pretty much the spark we needed yesterday. No doubt Brown won't have noticed, much like Timlin and Worrall's perfomances against Brighton, and he will be on the bench next home game

Southend Elvis said:

Why does everyone say Jack can't fit into the team, most of our positive play comes through him, I would have him first on the teamsheet, not lenny who seems to have something on PB

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For me I would build the team around Payne, although that would mean that there would need to be compromises elsewhere. He has demonstrated that he is both creative and poses a goal threat. He is still learning and can only get better, but to do that he needs to play more. he will have games (happened last season) when he will get marked out the game, but that should open up opportunities elsewhere in the team.

Jam_Man said:

He will fit into the team, as long as we dont play 442.

You might prefer him over Leonard, but they play two completely different roles.

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Absolutely. A couple of times yesterday Lenny had to make quick covering runs and great tackles to cut out attacks that had got past defenders. That's a skill not in Payne's locker at all.

Payne's role is specialised, he won't fit into all team selections, but there will be some where he excels. Yesterday clearly showed that. I think if Hunt plays, then probably Payne won't as they both have tenacity about their game.

Jam_Man said:

He will fit into the team, as long as we dont play 442.

You might prefer him over Leonard, but they play two completely different roles.

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Why can't he play up top in a 442? Is it because he is short? Kevin Phillips had a very successful career and he is only 2" taller than Payne. I see no reason why Payne can't play up top with a big target man

Think Jack may struggle to get the game time he deserves this season, purely because he's a bit of a luxury player. He effectively plays best in a free role behind the striker or as an attacking midfielder and this season Brown is clearly going to set up not to lose (particularly away from home) and it's hard to see where he fits into that.

That said, he's a great talent with a lot of potential and probably the most creative player we've got in the squad. He does provide a spark as we saw yesterday and that will be vital when we need to grab a goal late on and can bring him on as a sub.

Jam_Man said:

He will fit into the team, as long as we dont play 442.

You might prefer him over Leonard, but they play two completely different roles.

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I think he could potentially play left in a 4-4-2, or as one of the strikers. Not that I think these will be his best positions, but if he starts consistently performing well when he comes on it's something Brown might think about.

davewebbsbrain said:

Why can't he play up top in a 442? Is it because he is short? Kevin Phillips had a very successful career and he is only 2" taller than Payne. I see no reason why Payne can't play up top with a big target man

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Because then its 4411. He isnt an out and out striker, he will play in the hole behind. Its not actually anything to do with his size, its how he plays, Phillips was a striker. Payne isnt.

You want him getting the ball to his feet in deep positions, not fighting to win balls in the pockets of defenders.

Size does play a part though, Id be more than happy to see him play in that system but without Corr to take the brunt of the physical work I dont think any of our strikers will work well with that.

If we play 442 then Id rather Hunt and one other.

Personally Id be happy for us to play 4231 like we ended up yesterday, but others complain about lack of two strikers.

It's simple, he doesn't get picked because Brown always picks his team with a defensive element in mind. He looks at Payne and thinks how can he help us when we concede a corner or free kick.
Look at the midfield yesterday, Wordsworth hardly got past the halfway line and he is our attacking midfielder! Wasnt allowed to get forward so was ineffective. I felt so sorry for Lenny yesterday, god nose what position he was asked to play. He should of played Deegans role. The role he played all last season.
Brown just needs to play the best players that can win the game. That means putting the players in the correct positions and playing the players that can effective the game offensively, not just defensively. That includes playing Payne.

I think he looked very dangerous when he came on yesterday, did some good running with the ball at his feet but much of it was in circles or into dead ends and invariably it ended up with a wayward pass or him being dispossessed. At least he tried to make things happen but bar maybe the last 10 minutes I don't think he was as effective as people are making out.

For me he is an individual player and not an overly intelligent one either, so he doesn't really link-up with other players on the pitch that well and is therefore a bit of a luxury in my eyes. He is neither a central midfielder nor a striker, and the role he does play in the hole is very specialised. Therefore we would need to sacrifice either a striker or a central midfielder to fit him in, but whereas we got away with it when we did that last season I don't feel we can afford to do it this season, perhaps with the exception of away games where we are clear long-shots for the win.

This is a higher level of football as we've already seen - if we sacrifice a CM we'll get carved open through the middle, and if we sacrifice a striker and only play one then we are making it more difficult to score goals for an already goal-shy team......we are going to need goals to stay in this division and we are more likely to do that with 2 out-and-out strikers on the pitch, whether they are "natural goalscorers" or not. So for me, he will remain a player to bring off the bench and change things 15 or 20 minutes into the second half if things aren't working.


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JamesTheSuperBlue said:

I think he looked very dangerous when he came on yesterday, did some good running with the ball at his feet. But for me he is an individual player and not an overly intelligent one either, so he doesn't really link-up with other players on the pitch that well and is therefore a bit of a luxury in my eyes. He is neither a central midfielder nor a striker, and the role he does play in the hole is very specialised. Therefore we would need to sacrifice either a striker or a central midfielder to fit him in, but whereas we got away with it when we did that last season I don't feel we can afford to do it this season, perhaps with the exception of away games where we are clear long-shots for the win. This is a higher level of football as we've already seen - if we sacrifice a CM we'll get carved open through the middle, and if we sacrifice a striker and only play one then we are making it more difficult to score goals for an already goal-shy team......we are going to need goals to stay in this division and we are more likely to do that with 2 strikers on the pitch, whether they are "natural goalscorers" or not. So for me, he will remain a player to bring off the bench and change things 15 or 20 minutes into the second half if things aren't working.


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Totally agree.

Whilst he looked like the spark and the one making an impact what he actually did most of the time was run with the ball and lose it. If Weston did what he did most of the time he would have got slaughtered.

There was one bit on the right wing Payne had the ball and beat about 4 players going back and forth, then booted the ball off the opposite touchline.

He has the talent, its how he uses it that needs to be improved.

That said, at least he was trying to drive forward and make things happen and as the game went on he did actually run into less dead ends and get a little more success.

If he can get that end product to add to his technical ability he is going to be some player.

In a 3-5-2 formation he would fit in any side that plays football to feet of course:smile:

davewebbsbrain said:

Why can't he play up top in a 442? Is it because he is short? Kevin Phillips had a very successful career and he is only 2" taller than Payne. I see no reason why Payne can't play up top with a big target man

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Payne can't play up top with a big target man because we don't have a big target man.

Danshrimper said:

Payne can't play up top with a big target man because we don't have a big target man.

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And because he's not a striker. That's the problem, he needs to play further forward than a central midfielder, but he's unable to play as far forward as a striker/ineffective if he does. So having him as a 2nd striker in a 4-4-2 just doesn't work.


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davewebbsbrain said:

Payne was pretty much the spark we needed yesterday. No doubt Brown won't have noticed, much like Timlin and Worrall's perfomances against Brighton, and he will be on the bench next home game

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I agree that either Worrall or Timlin should have started yesterday, although not sure you could fit them both in and my preference would have been Worrall instead of Deegan to give us some much needed width.

I do though think that Brown does rate Payne hence the reason he was first sub. I think Payne will get plenty of opportunities but more as an impact sub for now.

Jam_Man said:

Totally agree.

Whilst he looked like the spark and the one making an impact what he actually did most of the time was run with the ball and lose it. If Weston did what he did most of the time he would have got slaughtered.

There was one bit on the right wing Payne had the ball and beat about 4 players going back and forth, then booted the ball off the opposite touchline.

He has the talent, its how he uses it that needs to be improved.

That said, at least he was trying to drive forward and make things happen and as the game went on he did actually run into less dead ends and get a little more success.

If he can get that end product to add to his technical ability he is going to be some player.

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I thought exactly the same at the time. In fact the pair that sit behind me and moaned about any mis-placed pass from Weston roundly applauded Payne for kicking the ball into touch.

OldBlueLady said:

Absolutely. A couple of times yesterday Lenny had to make quick covering runs and great tackles to cut out attacks that had got past defenders. That's a skill not in Payne's locker at all.

Payne's role is specialised, he won't fit into all team selections, but there will be some where he excels. Yesterday clearly showed that. I think if Hunt plays, then probably Payne won't as they both have tenacity about their game.

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*cough* Wembley *cough*