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Agreed, I think Phil Brown is as good as Paul Sturrock (or perhaps / hopefully even better).

Can we discuss this and judge him over the 161 games that Sturrock managed for Southend, and then judge him then on a win ratio. There is to many stats that prove otherwise in each favour.

PB is a far better manager than PS and Tilly, he's a tactician and we play to our strengths differently against every team we come up against. Ok, it doesn't always work out to our advantage but that's a sign of a good manager doing his homework... If we were in the championship now I'd rather have PB than Tilly and I do believe we'd stay up..
 
He's already achieved more than Sturrock. Phil Brown has got us promoted, Sturrock didn't.

That may be true, but I have some sympathy for PS. Don't forget the financial turmoil we were in when PS took over. It is also fairly well known that PS's budget was cut every season he was with us. (I don't know where the numbers above came from...) If it wasn't for him we wouldn't be in the relatively stable (note I said relatively) financial position that PB has benefited from.

That's not to take anything away from PB, he did indeed get us promoted, but I think it is important to recognise the part PS played in that.
 
PB is a far better manager than PS and Tilly, he's a tactician and we play to our strengths differently against every team we come up against. Ok, it doesn't always work out to our advantage but that's a sign of a good manager doing his homework... If we were in the championship now I'd rather have PB than Tilly and I do believe we'd stay up..

Of course that is only one aspect of being a good manager. Man management is also important, as is player preparation and success in the transfer market.

I would use Dave Webb as an example. No-one would argue he was a bad manager, but he was certainly no tactician. His philosophy was to let the opposition worry about us. But he was an amazing motivator, and did pretty well with transfers too.
 
The basic figures for some of the years are on the Financial / FF forum, as are most of the accounts

League 2 promotion year 2004-2005 Wages 1.9M
Sturrock 2010-2011 2.3M
Sturrock 2011-2012 2.7M
Sturrocks last year 2.9M

The figures quoted above are not what the manager was given. The clubs turnover is different to what each manger is given as a budget for his staff, players and coaches, wages etc.
 
The figures quoted above are not what the manager was given. The clubs turnover is different to what each manger is given as a budget for his staff, players and coaches, wages etc.

These are the staff costs , which as the OP said wage bill I assume that's what was meant..

Theses figures are nothing to do with turnover , turnover is income, staff costs are expenditure
 
That may be true, but I have some sympathy for PS. Don't forget the financial turmoil we were in when PS took over. It is also fairly well known that PS's budget was cut every season he was with us. (I don't know where the numbers above came from...) If it wasn't for him we wouldn't be in the relatively stable (note I said relatively) financial position that PB has benefited from.

That's not to take anything away from PB, he did indeed get us promoted, but I think it is important to recognise the part PS played in that.

The above figures are the staff costs / wages as stated in the annual accounts for each financial year.

They are all in the Finances Forum
 
These are the staff costs , which as the OP said wage bill I assume that's what was meant..

Theses figures are nothing to do with turnover , turnover is income, staff costs are expenditure

Not sure about total staff costs. I do know that the figures you quoted are way higher than is spent on the playing side of things.
 
The above figures are the staff costs / wages as stated in the annual accounts for each financial year.

They are all in the Finances Forum

Mmm. So who do I believe now? The figures quoted on here, or the director that told me that playing budget was cut every season?

That's a hard one!
 
The basic figures for some of the years are on the Financial / FF forum, as are most of the accounts

League 2 promotion year 2004-2005 Wages 1.9M
Sturrock 2010-2011 2.3M
Sturrock 2011-2012 2.7M
Sturrocks last year 2.9M
£1.9M in todays prices is £2.7M. That's just general inflation. Add in the fact that footballers wages rise faster than society in general (look at the increase in TV money we've had over that same period, for example) and especially compare the size of our wage bill with our peers and I think you'll find that comparatively speaking Luggy had less to work with.
 
Brown achieved promotion
Sturrock did not
How is there even a debate on who was better.
Facts and not opinions point to us playing in league one under brown. Something sturrock did not achieve.
Cue the what a lovely fella luggy was brigade......blah blah blah.

Never forget the amazing job luggy did do when first coming here though....saved the club imo.
 
The basic figures for some of the years are on the Financial / FF forum, as are most of the accounts

League 2 promotion year 2004-2005 Wages 1.9M
Sturrock 2010-2011 2.3M
Sturrock 2011-2012 2.7M
Sturrocks last year 2.9M
£1.9M in todays prices is £2.7M. That's just general inflation. Add in the fact that footballers wages rise faster than society in general (look at the increase in TV money we've had over that same period, for example) and especially compare the size of our wage bill with our peers and I think you'll find that comparatively speaking Luggy had less to work with.
 
£1.9M in todays prices is £2.7M. That's just general inflation. Add in the fact that footballers wages rise faster than society in general (look at the increase in TV money we've had over that same period, for example) and especially compare the size of our wage bill with our peers and I think you'll find that comparatively speaking Luggy had less to work with.


Footballers dont deal in 1% pay rises,so that figure of 1.9 is probably now 4 million plus,but I get what you mean and agree.

Luggy had a shoestring budget.
 
Agreed, I think Phil Brown is as good as Paul Sturrock (or perhaps / hopefully even better).

Can we discuss this and judge him over the 161 games that Sturrock managed for Southend, and then judge him then on a win ratio. There is to many stats that prove otherwise in each favour.

My issue is that had PB failed in the final last year we would no doubt be looking at a far higher winning percentage than we will achieve in League One. Yes he may or may not of been sacked but success and figures can be two very different things.
 
£1.9M in todays prices is £2.7M. That's just general inflation. Add in the fact that footballers wages rise faster than society in general (look at the increase in TV money we've had over that same period, for example) and especially compare the size of our wage bill with our peers and I think you'll find that comparatively speaking Luggy had less to work with.

£1.9M in todays prices is £2.7M. That's just general inflation. Add in the fact that footballers wages rise faster than society in general (look at the increase in TV money we've had over that same period, for example) and especially compare the size of our wage bill with our peers and I think you'll find that comparatively speaking Luggy had less to work with.

So good you said it twice.:clap:
 
Brown achieved promotion
Sturrock did not
How is there even a debate on who was better.
Facts and not opinions point to us playing in league one under brown. Something sturrock did not achieve.
Cue the what a lovely fella luggy was brigade......blah blah blah.

Never forget the amazing job luggy did do when first coming here though....saved the club imo.

I have no idea what he's like, I've never met him. I just think your approach to who is better is over simplistic.
 
I have no idea what he's like, I've never met him. I just think your approach to who is better is over simplistic.

Or do others over complicate the question? A win percentage may not always tell the story, can be said of any stat in football. I prefer to say something like.....who put a trophy in the cabinet.....who took us up etc. these are facts where as constant speculation on budgets etc is a bit pointless. Would love to have the precise squad spend in black and white though.
 
FFS, I wish everyone would stop arguing on this matter of who is/was the best manager.
In the last 11 years we have been to 5 Finals at National stadiums, made the play offs a few times, suffered relegation twice (not a positive I know) drawn with Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, beaten the European champions and been on a roller coaster ride that fans of virtually all league clubs can only dream of and all three of the managers responsible need the recognition they earned and all of them in their own way deserve equal praise for their achievements for our club.
 
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