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Brown: I need better quality in attack

It's a debate about quality of strikers, going by your reckoning we need a possible future shrimpers sub forum too then.

It's a debate about the quality of the strikers at the club now. Don't see how a possible future shrimpers sub forum figures but obviously you know what you mean.

I think it came in when discussing PB's role in the quality he has available. Obviously it seems a little strange to be complaining about the quality you have available when he replaced a superior player (Corr) with an inferior one (Mooney). I suppose Mooney is more durable though, which is a factor if you're also contemplating later signing someone who's 33 in a couple of months and has only started 111 league matches in 7 years.

Yeah, I had already worked out why Corr featured, I just didn't, and don't see the point of debating a player who left the club for better terms elsewhere and who will not be coming back. That said, if people want to discuss it, then they will I guess. I'm out of this one now I've aired my opinion.
 
It's a debate about the quality of the strikers at the club now. Don't see how a possible future shrimpers sub forum figures but obviously you know what you mean.



Yeah, I had already worked out why Corr featured, I just didn't, and don't see the point of debating a player who left the club for better terms elsewhere and who will not be coming back. That said, if people want to discuss it, then they will I guess. I'm out of this one now I've aired my opinion.


Thanks RHB for allowing us to discuss BC,much appreciated:winking:
 
I have to be honest, in that I don't think there is a problem with the ability of any of our current forwards or any of our other squad members per se (apart from the obvious injury problems that Hunt, and others are still recovering from), the underlying issue as I see it is that Phil Brown is so defensively minded that much of the creativity has been driven out of the side in the name of efficiency and the "clean sheet" mentality. There are some facts that we might want to consider - we have several defenders and midfielders who can score goals consistently, and I am thinking Barrett, Leonard, Timlin and Worrall to name a few, and we have Mooney who has scored for fun at previous clubs, and Piggy who looked likely to score regularly in his earlier days with us. BBBC hit 20+ goals under Sturrock, and is on track to do the same at Cambridge, but was unable to make an impact while he was stuck up front on his own. The same isolation is there for Mooney, Piggy and maybe for Hunt, and the rest of the team all seem to have no confidence in the final third.

For me, Brown does need to look in the mirror and reflect on his own part in the lack of goals, which is a direct result of his beloved philosophy. We don't have an attacking coach, he insists on the 1 up front thing which doesn't really work, even when we are in a 442 formation, and the players don't seem to have the freedom to be really creative. Even Worral, Hurst, Lenny and Coker seem a bit stifled, and as for Adam Barrett, he must be really disappointed in his conversion rate as he would normally have scored 2 or 3 times at this point in a normal season!
 
I have to be honest, in that I don't think there is a problem with the ability of any of our current forwards or any of our other squad members per se (apart from the obvious injury problems that Hunt, and others are still recovering from), the underlying issue as I see it is that Phil Brown is so defensively minded that much of the creativity has been driven out of the side in the name of efficiency and the "clean sheet" mentality. There are some facts that we might want to consider - we have several defenders and midfielders who can score goals consistently, and I am thinking Barrett, Leonard, Timlin and Worrall to name a few, and we have Mooney who has scored for fun at previous clubs, and Piggy who looked likely to score regularly in his earlier days with us. BBBC hit 20+ goals under Sturrock, and is on track to do the same at Cambridge, but was unable to make an impact while he was stuck up front on his own. The same isolation is there for Mooney, Piggy and maybe for Hunt, and the rest of the team all seem to have no confidence in the final third.

For me, Brown does need to look in the mirror and reflect on his own part in the lack of goals, which is a direct result of his beloved philosophy. We don't have an attacking coach, he insists on the 1 up front thing which doesn't really work, even when we are in a 442 formation, and the players don't seem to have the freedom to be really creative. Even Worral, Hurst, Lenny and Coker seem a bit stifled, and as for Adam Barrett, he must be really disappointed in his conversion rate as he would normally have scored 2 or 3 times at this point in a normal season![/QUOTE

You have hit one of the big nails on the head. We all know Phil is a big clean sheets man and operates from a first instinct of defensiveness. Maybe he has pounded this drum so hard that the players are getting too tense. Barry Corrs comments about when he does play up front on his own at Cambridge and continues to score is insightful as he talks about the team getting forward sufficiently to support and also score.
Gillngham for example bomb forward quickly with 4 blokes capable of 100 metres in around. 11 seconds. Dack for example in scoring 10 goals has scored more than all our midfielders in he squad put together . This also says something about forward momentum

However the other side of the coin which is also clear, is that whilst each of our forwards has ability, Brown is now publicly stating effectively than none have the ability or quality to score goals decisively. Brown, Paul Clarke, Adrian Clarke and Pennyfather have all repeated that we lack pace upfront, so in this sense we do not currently have the ability to score more regularly and consistently. Both notions of ability and mindset apply?
 
Barrett,Hunt,Timlin,Coker,Pigott,Wordsworth,Prosser,Mooney pen,Leonard,White and Thompson.

The above are this seasons home scorers which is pathetic !

Forwards have managed 2 from open play plus one pen,crazy horse.
 
I have to be honest, in that I don't think there is a problem with the ability of any of our current forwards or any of our other squad members per se (apart from the obvious injury problems that Hunt, and others are still recovering from), the underlying issue as I see it is that Phil Brown is so defensively minded that much of the creativity has been driven out of the side in the name of efficiency and the "clean sheet" mentality. There are some facts that we might want to consider - we have several defenders and midfielders who can score goals consistently, and I am thinking Barrett, Leonard, Timlin and Worrall to name a few, and we have Mooney who has scored for fun at previous clubs, and Piggy who looked likely to score regularly in his earlier days with us. BBBC hit 20+ goals under Sturrock, and is on track to do the same at Cambridge, but was unable to make an impact while he was stuck up front on his own. The same isolation is there for Mooney, Piggy and maybe for Hunt, and the rest of the team all seem to have no confidence in the final third.

For me, Brown does need to look in the mirror and reflect on his own part in the lack of goals, which is a direct result of his beloved philosophy. We don't have an attacking coach, he insists on the 1 up front thing which doesn't really work, even when we are in a 442 formation, and the players don't seem to have the freedom to be really creative. Even Worral, Hurst, Lenny and Coker seem a bit stifled, and as for Adam Barrett, he must be really disappointed in his conversion rate as he would normally have scored 2 or 3 times at this point in a normal season!

I agree with that other than Timlin and Mooney being regular scorers. Mooney is 31 has only once hit 10 league goals in a season. That's as often as two other 30-something year olds in Kevan Hurst (who you don't mention but should score more) and Adam Barrett. You're making the mistake that Rob Newman made with Graeme Jones. I'm a big fan of Timlin but even so I'd struggle to make the case for him being able to score consistently. He's 32 and I don't think he's ever scored 5 goals in a season.

I've nothing against the 1 up front formation - if we've got midfielders getting forward at every opportunity. We don't have Kane Ferdinand, Ryan Hall and Bilel Mohsni looking to get forward at every opportunity. We don't have Nicky Bailey, Mark Gower, Alan McCormack and Tommy Black trying to get into goalscoring positions.

The likes of Leonard, Worrall, McLaughlin, Hurst are all capable of double figures in a set up that encourages them to get ahead of the ball and to gamble. But they neither have the licence to do so, nor in Mooney a forward capable of holding the ball up to give them the time to do so.
 
The key to the whole situation is the final ball that currently Mooney cannot get on the end of due to lack of pace. If he gets on it the defenders are back pedalling. If he fails to collect it the defenders are clearing the ball or creating the counter that makes us backpedal. Mostly it is the latter which means the ball does not stick in the opposition last third and we are too often forced defensive immediately from our attack.

This side will do much better once someone a little pacier, not necessarily mega fast, plays as the furthest forward striker. It is one tweak. As I have said so many times, it is likely the swap of Mooney for Payne. Payne may not be an out and out forward but he can get onto enough to create defenders headaches and more time for our mids to bomb on.
 
I think it came in when discussing PB's role in the quality he has available. Obviously it seems a little strange to be complaining about the quality you have available when he replaced a superior player (Corr) with an inferior one (Mooney). I suppose Mooney is more durable though, which is a factor if you're also contemplating later signing someone who's 33 in a couple of months and has only started 111 league matches in 7 years.

Still banging on about Corr? Jeez.

Ok, let's go back to 2010. Exeter City, League One. Corr plays in 37 games and bags 6 goals
Back one season further with Swidon. He banged in 2 goals in 14 appearances.
One more season back, again with Swindon..... 5 goals in 20 appearances.
2 years further back in the Championship with Sheffield Wednesday..... no goals in 18 appearances(!).

More recently than 2010 when he came to L2, he has 21, 13, 13, 16, 10 (so far) = 73 during his time in L2 (in all comps)
His total goal tally is either 90 or 100 depending on where you get your stats....But let's be generous and take the larger number. This leaves us with 23 goals to distribute over the 4 seasons he spent outside of L2 ( as in 2005/6 he was at Bristol City in L2 where he scored 4). This is about 5.5 goals per season in L1 or higher on average.

Mooney has 4 league goals with half the season gone and Hunt has 2 in a quarter of the appearances. Piggott I don't care about and would probably sooner have Corr over him anyway.

So the point is that you can create all of these hypothetical arguments based on your own opinions, but the fact stands that he was nowhere near as prolific in the higher leagues over the course of FIVE years, so it's not even like he was never given a chance etc etc..... His figures indicate that he does not perform above L2 standard, so the decision to let him go/drop his wages/drop his appearances or whatever the reason he left us looks a fair one.
 
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The key to the whole situation is the final ball that currently Mooney cannot get on the end of due to lack of pace. If he gets on it the defenders are back pedalling. If he fails to collect it the defenders are clearing the ball or creating the counter that makes us backpedal. Mostly it is the latter which means the ball does not stick in the opposition last third and we are too often forced defensive immediately from our attack.

This side will do much better once someone a little pacier, not necessarily mega fast, plays as the furthest forward striker. It is one tweak. As I have said so many times, it is likely the swap of Mooney for Payne. Payne may not be an out and out forward but he can get onto enough to create defenders headaches and more time for our mids to bomb on.

Yes Mooney's position should clearly be the no.10 role-he looked more than capable there,when playing behind Hunt but I cannot believE anyone could suggest Payne as the front man-target-man ????
 
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