The EU Referendum

Tangled up in Blue · May 26, 2016

Swiss Tony said:
Don't forget it's the pickpocket capital of Europe, splendid.:moon:

Ha! Last time I had my wallet nicked was in Southend. :blush:

(TBF, I also had my wallet nicket in Barna....back in '78).

mfurok · May 26, 2016

Tangled up in Blue said:
I'm beginning to think that recent vote of yours for UKIP wasn't really "a protest vote" at all.:winking:

Here's a thought for you.

You could actually choose to see the recent increase in net immigration from other EU countries as a sign of the success of the UK's economy,vis à vis the sluggish growth in Euroland.And welcome it as such.

Fascinating - but no answer to the questions whatsoever.

mfurok · May 26, 2016

Beefy said:
Sounds a lot like the United Kingdom :)

Clearly you don't live here.

mfurok · May 26, 2016

Massimo Giovanni said:
You are correct Phil, definitely not all a protest vote.
Immigration is "the elephant" that too many won't talk about because of the too often immediate race insult response.
The figures of growth to sheer population numbers in the UK is to very many people very very worrying.
With our "own grown" plus migration the UK the population may grow by between 5 to 10 MILLION by 2025.
Houses, schools, NHS, social systems, roads;- in short everything will struggle to cope anywhere near adequately with those numbers AND when the next big slump hits the UK/EU/World the social unrest could be very unpleasant AND very right wing so the right approach now and in the near future is a proper, fitting and necessary policy -

or you can pretend it isn't, stick pencils in your nose, pants on your head etc.:'(

Well said sir - we should meet for a beer or eight.

Another Surrey Shrimper · May 26, 2016

mfurok said:
What about people who live in this country but can't.........

Get their kids into their local school because it's full

Get seen at A&E because it's full

Get a doctor's appointment because they're full

Get a seat on a train because they're full

Buy a house because demand (too many people) exceeds supply and the prices are hugely inflated

etc etc etc

.....can they get their teeth into this too or do they have to be closet racists?

This country does not have the infrastructure to support the current population so how the hell is it going to cope with more than a steady, controlled net increase in population?

While we're at it, what about answers to questions from others about corruption, accountability, refusal to be audited etc? Currently 0/10 and see me after class for that lot.

Problem is that Capitalism needs growing economies - migration feeds economic growth - so the economic benefit of immigration needs to be put back into the system to fund schools, hospitals, transport. Everyone agrees that we as a nation benefit financially from immigration but if at that same time we are under funding the infrastructure and the services used by this new workforce then THAT is stupid.

Massimo Giovanni · May 26, 2016

Another Surrey Shrimper said:
Problem is that Capitalism needs growing economies - migration feeds economic growth - so the economic benefit of immigration needs to be put back into the system to fund schools, hospitals, transport. Everyone agrees that we as a nation benefit financially from immigration but if at that same time we are under funding the infrastructure and the services used by this new workforce then THAT is stupid.

Sorry A S S, many times you speak the voice of reason BUT like many a politician you are now dreaming of a Utopian government that doesn't exist and has time and again shown an inability to predict and plan for 1, 4,6, 10 years ahead. I don't blame them for that as it is almost impossible: however the reality is this small island of ours can not cope with the influx....FULL STOP_________________ under lined etc.
AND in the EU we can not do anything about it.

Another Surrey Shrimper · May 27, 2016

Massimo Giovanni said:
Sorry A S S, many times you speak the voice of reason BUT like many a politician you are now dreaming of a Utopian government that doesn't exist and has time and again shown an inability to predict and plan for 1, 4,6, 10 years ahead. I don't blame them for that as it is almost impossible: however the reality is this small island of ours can not cope with the influx....FULL STOP_________________ under lined etc.
AND in the EU we can not do anything about it.

I agree that if in the EU there is free movement in and out - that is something that I am very aware has pitfalls but being in the EU is something that you have to weigh up the pros and cons - and most politicians, economists, business leaders and by a narrower margin the public - agree that the pros outweigh the cons. We are in it, we are likely to stay in it and one of the co sequences of that is population increase. Pretending that you can set a limit of that is the fiction the Conservatives fed to us to get elected. What that should be doing is spending the increased income that immigration brings and investing in the services and infrastructure that immigration puts more pressure on - instead of austerity which withdraws funds at the very point that they are needed.
Cameron is trotting out a lot of lies and exaggeration but one thing that I think is true is that leaving the EU will shrink our economy. That doesn't suit our economic needs so logically if we stay in the the benefits of that needs to be invested in the things we collectively use. For me that is the role of a government. If a government knows there will be population growth and doesn't react to that with investment then vote them out.

callan · May 27, 2016

Another Surrey Shrimper said:
I agree that if in the EU there is free movement in and out - that is something that I am very aware has pitfalls but being in the EU is something that you have to weigh up the pros and cons - and most politicians, economists, business leaders and by a narrower margin the public - agree that the pros outweigh the cons. We are in it, we are likely to stay in it and one of the co sequences of that is population increase. Pretending that you can set a limit of that is the fiction the Conservatives fed to us to get elected. What that should be doing is spending the increased income that immigration brings and investing in the services and infrastructure that immigration puts more pressure on - instead of austerity which withdraws funds at the very point that they are needed.
Cameron is trotting out a lot of lies and exaggeration but one thing that I think is true is that leaving the EU will shrink our economy. That doesn't suit our economic needs so logically if we stay in the the benefits of that needs to be invested in the things we collectively use. For me that is the role of a government. If a government knows there will be population growth and doesn't react to that with investment then vote them out.

I'm astonished.

You advocate an end to austerity, can you share with us what the EU'S view on austerity is?....or the IMF, ECB etc ?

You advocate voting governments out despite knowing that the EU is so undemocratic you cannot do the same.

You say you think that leaving the EU will shrink our economy....yet advocate being shackled to a trading block that has the lowest growth world wide?

Lastly you may well be right that Cameron is a liar....he will be glad of your support when you vote remain.

Another Surrey Shrimper · May 27, 2016

callan said:
I'm astonished.

You advocate an end to austerity, can you share with us what the EU'S view on austerity is?....or the IMF, ECB etc ?

You advocate voting governments out despite knowing that the EU is so undemocratic you cannot do the same.

You say you think that leaving the EU will shrink our economy....yet advocate being shackled to a trading block that has the lowest growth world wide?

Lastly you may well be right that Cameron is a liar....he will be glad of your support when you vote remain.

Why would my view on austerity (or anything else) have to fit in with IMF, EBC, etc?

Why would I stop voting for or against particular parties in the UK just because the MEPs we vote for have less impact than the MPs we vote for?

Yes I think leaving the EU will shrink our economy.

Cameron doesn't get my support. This has been built up to being vote Cameron /Osborne or vote Johnson / IDS so by your logic if I vote leave I am supporting Johnson / IDS. I'm not voting for either side of the Conservative party - I'm just voting to stay in the EU mainly because the Conservative party would make a hash of any exist. Amusing that you try to twist it into support for Cameron when I have consistently said that my vote to remain is mainly because by leaving things as they are the Tories will create less mess than they do when they try to do anything.

rigsby · May 27, 2016

shrimpboy said:
So they're now blackmailing people into voting to remain.

I seriously hope all this contemptuous scaremongering backfires and people stick two fingers up to the EU.

People who work in some of the big city banks like Goldman Sachs were called into meetings and told if we vote out then they would close down in London.

Still they said that when we refused to join the Euro and their bonuses haven't been that bad since.

Another Surrey Shrimper · May 27, 2016

rigsby said:
People who work in some of the big city banks like Goldman Sachs were called into meetings and told if we vote out then they would close down in London.

Still they said that when we refused to join the Euro and their bonuses haven't been that bad since.

Those that were advocating joining the Euro (at least those with any influence) were only going to press ahead if and when the economic circumstances were right - and they never were.

Joining the Euro is old news, it never happened, it never will - harking back is pointless.

Yes the remain side are blackmailing you, as are the leave side. What we are witnessing right now is an appalling version of politics that will put even more people off of taking part.

rigsby · May 27, 2016

Another Surrey Shrimper said:
Why would my view on austerity (or anything else) have to fit in with IMF, EBC, etc?

Why would I stop voting for or against particular parties in the UK just because the MEPs we vote for have less impact than the MPs we vote for?

Yes I think leaving the EU will shrink our economy.

Cameron doesn't get my support. This has been built up to being vote Cameron /Osborne or vote Johnson / IDS so by your logic if I vote leave I am supporting Johnson / IDS. I'm not voting for either side of the Conservative party - I'm just voting to stay in the EU mainly because the Conservative party would make a hash of any exist. Amusing that you try to twist it into support for Cameron when I have consistently said that my vote to remain is mainly because by leaving things as they are the Tories will create less mess than they do when they try to do anything.

Economic growth is a term we have been hearing for months. Its the line that people gladly swallow. Who exactly benefits from it. The super wealthy yes, tax dodging multinational companies yes.

How has it benefited your life in the last ten years? What about the average young person of about 30, who wants to buy a house, send their kids to school and have job security. How much of this 'essential' economic growth will be heading their way.

rigsby · May 27, 2016

Another Surrey Shrimper said:
Those that were advocating joining the Euro (at least those with any influence) were only going to press ahead if and when the economic circumstances were right - and they never were.

Joining the Euro is old news, it never happened, it never will - harking back is pointless.

Yes the remain side are blackmailing you, as are the leave side. What we are witnessing right now is an appalling version of politics that will put even more people off of taking part.

The same scare stories by the same people about the same subject are relevant. No doubt you were keen to join the Euro and pointed the same 'little Englander' finger at any dissenters.

I know that doesn't fit in with your new found political thinking. That's the problem with you champagne socialists, as soon as your own money is threatened your principles have now gone out the window.

Another Surrey Shrimper · May 27, 2016

rigsby said:
Economic growth is a term we have been hearing for months. Its the line that people gladly swallow. Who exactly benefits from it. The super wealthy yes, tax dodging multinational companies yes.

How has it benefited your life in the last ten years? What about the average young person of about 30, who wants to buy a house, send their kids to school and have job security. How much of this 'essential' economic growth will be heading their way.

Agreed - economic growth can be shared or not shared. In retail I wholeheartedly support the John Lewis model rather than the Sport Direct set up.
But recession is a bad thing and increasing GDP is a good thing for the wealth of the country as a whole. Why exactly seemingly falls outside of both of our levels of understanding - but I do blindly go along with the notion that economic growth is important. If you want to investigate and debunk that theory then good on you.

Another Surrey Shrimper · May 27, 2016

rigsby said:
The same scare stories by the same people about the same subject are relevant. No doubt you were keen to join the Euro and pointed the same 'little Englander' finger at any dissenters.

I know that doesn't fit in with your new found political thinking. That's the problem with you champagne socialists, as soon as your own money is threatened your principles have now gone out the window.

There are so many scare stories from both sides of the Conservative party at the moment I just don't know why you need to bring up ones from 10ish years ago.
I wouldn't make assumptions on what I was thinking 10 years ago but if you are going to do that then how comes this is my 'new found political thinking'? Keep your insults consistent.
Not sure what principles I have thrown out of the window but I don't drink champagne and I don't have any money as my earnings (nearly) match my spending. I think you must be getting me mixed up with someone else.

Massimo Giovanni · May 27, 2016

OK A.S.S.................just a few more answers please.
1.Why has the EU never had a fiscal report/audit completed/allowed to be made? if not for fear of the scale of corruption & waste becoming TOO known?
2.Could you or your children live a normally aspirational life (marriage/kids/car/holiday) on minimum wage?
3.How does the UK build homes for the 300k migrants each year, let alone schools/hospitals et al?

4.And is it true that in 1975 the average board member of a company earned 25x the average floor worker of that company YET in 2016 he or she now gets 176x the "workers" salary?

Massimo Giovanni · May 27, 2016

And to answer my own questions.
1. True, corruption on a scale that dwarfs any mafia or "banana" republic.
2. No, especially on a zero hours type contract BUT DSS top ups might help.
3. CAN NOT BE DONE. IMPOSSIBLE FOR FORESEEABLE FUTURE.
4. True, shamefully, rich get richer, poor get poorer in the UK, in the EU, (which is more than can be said for "we are all in this together" brigade.)

Tangled up in Blue · May 27, 2016

mfurok said:
Well said sir - we should meet for a beer or eight.

You'd get on well.I've met MG,as has Rob. (for a quick lunchtime pint) and can confirm he's a nice fella.Knows his football too.

Might not have as much to argue about as with me,however.:smiles:

londonblue · May 27, 2016

rigsby said:
People who work in some of the big city banks like Goldman Sachs were called into meetings and told if we vote out then they would close down in London.

Still they said that when we refused to join the Euro and their bonuses haven't been that bad since.

I worked for one of the big American banks back then (I even worked in a risk management role). I can assure you that those kind of meetings never took place then.

callan · May 27, 2016

Another Surrey Shrimper said:
Why would my view on austerity (or anything else) have to fit in with IMF, EBC, etc?

Why would I stop voting for or against particular parties in the UK just because the MEPs we vote for have less impact than the MPs we vote for?

Yes I think leaving the EU will shrink our economy.

Cameron doesn't get my support. This has been built up to being vote Cameron /Osborne or vote Johnson / IDS so by your logic if I vote leave I am supporting Johnson / IDS. I'm not voting for either side of the Conservative party - I'm just voting to stay in the EU mainly because the Conservative party would make a hash of any exist. Amusing that you try to twist it into support for Cameron when I have consistently said that my vote to remain is mainly because by leaving things as they are the Tories will create less mess than they do when they try to do anything.

No Twisting at all AAS, if the government led by Cameron supports remain, and you vote remain then by default you support them.
You aren't voting for any kind of Socialist remain....that simply isn't on the table.

I know you don't like the Tories, and have put forward an argument that you don't trust them to negotiate an exit, however again by default if you vote remain you do support them to negotiate the UK's position within the EU....how much mess they create as you put it is unquantifiable in either remain or leave scenario.

In terms of why your view on Austerity should coincide with The EU, ECB etc is that they are imposing and in favour of austerity....as you have readily pointed out (in your opinion) this hits hard on the front line and according to you that is where money needs to be spent, rather than concentrating on debt or deficit.Again by default you end up supporting Austerity as that is the EU's financial position.

I do get the fact you are between a rock and a hard place on this issue.

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