• Welcome to the ShrimperZone forums.
    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which only gives you limited access.

    Existing Users:.
    Please log-in using your existing username and password. If you have any problems, please see below.

    New Users:
    Join our free community now and gain access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and free. Click here to join.

    Fans from other clubs
    We welcome and appreciate supporters from other clubs who wish to engage in sensible discussion. Please feel free to join as above but understand that this is a moderated site and those who cannot play nicely will be quickly removed.

    Assistance Required
    For help with the registration process or accessing your account, please send a note using the Contact us link in the footer, please include your account name. We can then provide you with a new password and verification to get you on the site.

Out of Interest why vote for someone in the first round and then abstain when your chose person gets through ?

Can't remember anyone on this thread whose preferred first round candidate made it through to the second.

Very odd indeed. I'd like to think the default position for everyone who's not a card carrying fascist would be vote for Macron. Otherwise France is going to be saddled with Le Pen - and surely Monsieur Macron is lesser of two evils?

Given that the polls make Macron ahead 60-40 per cent ahead there's an argument for those on the left abstaining in the second roun.

Did you say you have lived in France for 30 odd years yet can't vote? That's a bit harsh isn't it. I thought it was only us Brits that done that sort of thing (According to a certain on here)

Yogi,like me,can vote in local and European elections, not in French national elections because he's not a French citizen.
 
This is, of course a good point. The immediate choice for almost everyone, following jean-marie Le Pen qualifying for the second-round in 2002, was to vote for Chirac, without pleasure but without hesitation. This indeed was Mélenchon's position in 2002, curious that this time around, he remains silent on the subject. I've noted earlier that if you read the manifestos of both Mélenchon and Le Pen, they appear closer to each other than they are to Macron. (extreme left><extreme right). There is also, of course, the possibility that Le Pen has managed so successfully to undemonize her Front National, that many don't see its danger anymore. I'm not fooled or hoodwinked, I'm frighteningly aware of what the Front National represents...........a clear danger to freedom, liberty and democracy. If I had the vote I would support any democratic candidate standing against them, no matter how unpalatable that may be.

As I understand it Mélechon was having a meeting with his election team yesterday and was going to make his second round position clear after that.

The left "held their nose" and voted for Chirac in 2002 .Many won't bother to vote at all this time round.Can't say I blame them.Macron doesn't offer a lot.Young people,in particular,are not impressed.
 
Can't remember anyone on this thread whose preferred first round candidate made it through to the second.



Given that the polls make Macron ahead 60-40 per cent ahead (sic) there's an argument for those on the left abstaining in the second roun. (sic!)


Yogi,like me,can vote in local and European elections not in French national elections because he's not a French national.

Barna, that sounds to me one hell of a crap argument........and if it's not a total abrogation of 'democratic' responsibility it's certainly a 'political' one. However, I'm sure it's one Le Pen would hugely approve of.............and Mélenchon??? Not voting against the neofascist, racist, zenophobe, islamophobe and homophobe candidate is surely providing her with tacit approval?
 
As I understand it Mélechon was having a meeting with his election team yesterday and was going to make his second round position clear after that.

The left "held their nose" and voted for Chirac in 2002 .Many won't bother to vote at all this time round.Can't say I blame them.Macron doesn't offer a lot.Young people,in particular,are not impressed.

Then young people are not at aware of what fascism is............perhaps they should teach 'em better in schools.....especially with France's past. Thus your argument, if you lived in the thirties Germany, would be that I'm not voting against Hitler because I don't like the democratic alternative!
I'm afraid, if Mélenchon has taken three days to reflect on whether he recommends voting against the FN, he has lost credibility with me and with others, from what I'm hearing.
 
Can't remember anyone on this thread whose preferred first round candidate made it through to the second.



Given that the polls make Macron ahead 60-40 per cent ahead there's an argument for those on the left abstaining in the second roun.



Yogi,like me,can vote in local and European elections, not in French national elections because he's not a French citizen.

:hello: cuckoo! Macron, though far from perfect, was the only viable candidate, as far as I was concerned.
 
Barna, that sounds to me one hell of a crap argument........and if it's not a total abrogation of 'democratic' responsibility it's certainly a 'political' one. However, I'm sure it's one Le Pen would hugely approve of.............and Mélenchon??? Not voting against the neofascist, racist, zenophobe, islamophobe and homophobe candidate is surely providing her with tacit approval?

I'm sure MLP will benefit from abstentions in the second round.Since I don't have a vote myself I don't see it as my problem.

Macron will win anyway.

Then young people are not at aware of what fascism is............perhaps they should teach 'em better in schools.....especially with France's past. Thus your argument, if you lived in the thirties Germany, would be that I'm not voting against Hitler because I don't like the democratic alternative!
I'm afraid, if Mélenchon has taken three days to reflect on whether he recommends voting against the FN, he has lost credibility with me and with others, from what I'm hearing.


Mélechon is not the problem here.Macron is.He doesn't appeal to young voters who know about his time in Cabinet advising Hollande and his work for Rothschilds.
:hello: cuckoo! Macron, though far from perfect, was the only viable candidate, as far as I was concerned.

Sorry forgot about you. :facepalm:
Barna, the epoch and the country may be different...........but the question posed, is still very much the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJqsrEF4gw4

I was (and still am ) a huge fan of TRB.Saw them a few times too back in the day.
 
"Mélechon is not the problem here.Macron is.He doesn't appeal to young voters who know about his time in Cabinet advising Hollande and his work for Rothschilds."

Quite honestly, I don't see why someone who has worked at Rothschilds should be deemed unfit to be Président, anymore than Mélénchon should be barred, for the large personal fortune he has amassed.

"I was (and still am ) a huge fan of TRB.Saw them a few times too back in the day."

It's not down to how many times you may have seen them, it's to do with whether you've understood the message.
 
"Mélechon is not the problem here.Macron is.He doesn't appeal to young voters who know about his time in Cabinet advising Hollande and his work for Rothschilds."

Quite honestly, I don't see why someone who has worked at Rothschilds should be deemed unfit to be Président, anymore than Mélénchon should be barred, for the large personal fortune he has amassed.

"I was (and still am ) a huge fan of TRB.Saw them a few times too back in the day."

It's not down to how many times you may have seen them, it's to do with whether you've understood the message
.


It's not so much that Macron's "unfit" to be President.IMO,He'd be a pretty uninspiring one-apart from his pro-European views- and will have huge difficulty in getting his legislative programme through .
Though I think we could both agree, he'd be better than the alternative.It's just that Macron is clearly part of the elite he purports to supplant.

Yup.Always liked "Up against the wall." :winking:
 
Can't remember anyone on this thread whose preferred first round candidate made it through to the second.



Given that the polls make Macron ahead 60-40 per cent ahead there's an argument for those on the left abstaining in the second roun.



Yogi,like me,can vote in local and European elections, not in French national elections because he's not a French citizen.

This is one thing I dislike about the Corbyn-ite left - that when things get tough they opt out. I live in England so all this is happening from afar from my point of view but I like Macron. I'd vote for him if I could. he seems to be a pragmatic centre-left-ist and i'll take that most days.

How anyone can think about ducking out of a vote against Le Pen is beyond me. So you don't think the alternative is perfect? that's politics, you have to make choices between unpalatable options. The lesser of two evils is still less evil
 
This is one thing I dislike about the Corbyn-ite left - that when things get tough they opt out. I live in England so all this is happening from afar from my point of view but I like Macron. I'd vote for him if I could. he seems to be a pragmatic centre-left-ist and i'll take that most days.

How anyone can think about ducking out of a vote against Le Pen is beyond me
. So you don't think the alternative is perfect? that's politics, you have to make choices between unpalatable options. The lesser of two evils is still less evil

In answer to your point about "the Corbyn left" :in France (as well as in the UK) there is a need to "enthuse" voters as Owen Jones points out:-https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/27/labour-wont-win-peddling-misery-must-exude-hope-attlee-reagan-podemos .

This is something that Macron is singularly failing to do in France -unlike Corbyn- with young voters on the Left in the UK.

Macron may well be "pragmatic" and a "centrist" but there is nothing at all remotely left-wing about his political programme.He himself has admitted he's not a socialist.He's a "neoliberal" at best.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/27/french-fascist-socialist-national-assembly

As for your last point, (if you've been following the discussion on this thread), we've been here before.In 2002 many on the Left -when Jospin didn't make the second round-held their noses and voted for Chirac rather than the FN.This time around many will abstain instead.In a democracy that's a perfectly valid position.
 
Last edited:
In answer to your point about "the Corybn left" :in France (as well as in the UK) there is a need to "enthuse" voters as Owen Jones points out:-https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/27/labour-wont-win-peddling-misery-must-exude-hope-attlee-reagan-podemos .

This is something that Macron is singularly failing to do -unlike Corbyn- with young voters on the Left in the UK.

Macron may well be "pragmatic" and a "centrist" but there is nothing at all remotely left-wing about his political programme.

As for your last point, (if you've been following the discussion on this thread), we've been here before.In 2002 many on the Left -when Jospin didn't make the second round-held their noses and voted for Chirac rather than the FN.This time around many will abstain instead. In a democracy that's a perfectly valid position.

Well, it may be a valid position but is it a responsible one? If I understand correctly, your doubt about Macron ix that he doesn't have sufficient socialist credentials to merit supporting him(he is certainly not an Thatcherite liberal like Fillon). Let's look it another way. The policies of Le Pen (euroscepticism, anti-mondialisation) are really not that threatening for you.... perhaps if she were to start proposing internment for muslims, followed by gypsies, jews and gays, it would motivate you a little more to vote against what she stands for? By advocating abstention you really are saying, you don't care whether Le Pen or Macron wins. So, on the evening of May 7th, if it turns out to be President Le Pen, what exactly will you come on here saying? That is democracy?......................or, that was democracy?
 
Well, it may be a valid position but is it a responsible one? If I understand correctly, your doubt about Macron ix that he doesn't have sufficient socialist credentials to merit supporting him(he is certainly not an Thatcherite liberal like Fillon). Let's look it another way. The policies of Le Pen (euroscepticism, anti-mondialisation) are really not that threatening for you.... perhaps if she were to start proposing internment for muslims, followed by gypsies, jews and gays, it would motivate you a little more to vote against what she stands for? By advocating abstention you really are saying, you don't care whether Le Pen or Macron wins. So, on the evening of May 7th, if it turns out to be President Le Pen, what exactly will you come on here saying? That is democracy?......................or, that was democracy?

We don't have any disagreement about MLP.I thought her initial reaction to the the terrorist attack on the eve of the poll last week-to close France's EU borders was just absurd-especially when it transpired that the terrorist concerned was a French national.

I agree that Macron is not a Thatcherite like Fillon.What I am saying is that Macron will win despite abstentionism on the left,which in his case is fully deserved.
 
We don't have any disagreement about MLP. I thought her initial reaction to the the terrorist attack on the eve of the poll last week-to close France's EU borders was just absurd-especially when it transpired that the terrorist concerned was a French national.

I agree that Macron is not a Thatcherite like Fillon.What I am saying is that Macron will win despite abstentionism on the left,which in his case is fully deserved.

Sorry Barna, I don't want to nitpick (though it's rather more than that)...........we DO! You clearly don't perceive the same kind of threat to democracy from MLP that I do..........not enough anyway to promote going out on May 7th to stop her. You've really not answered any of the questions or arguments I've been puting forward, you've just fallen back on your obstinate, stubborn, determined belief that Macron is unbeatable and that swathes of the electorate staying at home won't effect the result. I'm sorry, that may have washed a few years ago but since Brexit and Trump, I don't believe in electoral certainties anymore. (Have I given myself hope for June the 8th?)
NO! I repeat again.........by abstaining, you are saying you don't care whether Macron or MLP wins...........well, I BLOODY DO!!!!!
 
Back
Top