Fire in North Kensington.

The comments on here... :nope:

Dany Cotton the Commissioner ( Chief Officer) has been giving evidence today at the Grenfell inquiry.

She is certainly under the cosh at it seems clear the best people to blame, for financial reasons, are the LFB.

rigsby said:

Dany Cotton the Commissioner ( Chief Officer) has been giving evidence today at the Grenfell inquiry.

She is certainly under the cosh at it seems clear the best people to blame, for financial reasons, are the LFB.

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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45666960

Presumably it's not a co-indincidence that 10 minutes after she arrived at the scene of the fire that the stay put order for residents was rescinded?

Tangled up in Blue said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45666960

Presumably it's not a co-indincidence that 10 minutes after she arrived at the scene of the fire that the stay put order for residents was rescinded?

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That decision had already been taken before she arrived.

rigsby said:

Dany Cotton the Commissioner ( Chief Officer) has been giving evidence today at the Grenfell inquiry.

She is certainly under the cosh at it seems clear the best people to blame, for financial reasons, are the LFB.

Click to expand...

Surely blaming the LFB is much easier than going after the company who suppied the cladding and the authority who took the cheaper option. And don't forget whoever signed it off. The LFB are by far a much better target.

Can you explain the protocal followed and was it text book, so to speak? I'm not looking to proportion blame towards the firefighters or those in charge in the slightest, I'm just interested in whether the rule book was being followed until it become apparent that it needed kicking into touch. I know its your area of expertise and I'm genuinely interested.

Apparently ,there are another 400 tower blocks around the country which have similar cladding to that at Grenfell.Clearly that cladding should now be removed at whatever cost.

rigsby said:

That decision had already been taken before she arrived.

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I don't think there can be any doubt that the "stay put" policy cost lives at Grenfell.

Tangled up in Blue said:

I don't think there can be any doubt that the "stay put" policy cost lives at Grenfell.

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What exactly are you getting at?

Benfleet A1 said:

What exactly are you getting at?

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I think my meaning is fairly clear.

Tangled up in Blue said:

I think my meaning is fairly clear.

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Spell it out. Are you suggesting that you know who is to blame before the enquiry has come to any conclusions?

Benfleet A1 said:

Surely blaming the LFB is much easier than going after the company who suppied the cladding and the authority who took the cheaper option. And don't forget whoever signed it off. The LFB are by far a much better target.

Can you explain the protocal followed and was it text book, so to speak? I'm not looking to proportion blame towards the firefighters or those in charge in the slightest, I'm just interested in whether the rule book was being followed until it become apparent that it needed kicking into touch. I know its your area of expertise and I'm genuinely interested.

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The protocol is to stay put and yes it is text book in a residential block like Grenfell. There are no means to announce a full evacuation, tannoy, alarm etc. Unlike a modern office Grenfell is not designed to facilitate a full evacuation anyway.
Workers in an office or factory are usually well drilled for a fire but residents would not respond in the same way and the LFB would not have enough staff to knock on every door.

What has clearly emerged during this inquiry is that the Grenfell residents were trapped almost immediately once the fire raced up the floors. It wasn't just that the manufactures of the cladding lied and submitted different examples to pass the fire safety tests but the construction of a façade. In effect the windows were brought forward 150mm but barley filled in properly behind. This meant the fire spread into each flat or lobby with way to much ease and unexpected speed.

This meant there was heavy smoke in the lobbies on several floors and in the one and only stairwell in an impossibly quick time. Every Firefighter or resident who opened a door into the stairwell, made the stairs more smoke logged.

Residents were phoning 999 and saying "We are trapped.....What should we do." Obviously the people in control could only say stay put as the Fire Brigade will come to you.

What didn't happen was people phoning and saying we could leave now but should we wait.

We have had witnesses who tried to leave, saying they were lost and dying and were found and saved by Firefighters. I believe it was around 70 people who were saved directly by the LFB

I was on holiday in June with a group of Firefighters and 3 of them were in Grenfell that night. They are all extended duration BA wearers so spent longer than most inside. They had just recently attended a memorial for the Bethnal Green WW2 tube disaster, where 173 people were crushed in a panic on a wider staircase then Grenfell......They tell me that had 300 people tried to all come down those stairs in a short time then the death toll would have been higher that night in Grenfell.

Tangled up in Blue said:

I don't think there can be any doubt that the "stay put" policy cost lives at Grenfell.

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Thanks for your expert opinion.

I do hope you haven't just read some brief headlines and jumped to that convenient conclusion, Otherwise the real reasons might be overlooked

I think the people who deliberately manufactured a better example of cladding, than the one they intended to supply, in order to pass tests...…..Should be the ones on trial for murder at the Old Bailey some time in the future.

The body who do the tests need to have a look at their 'I'll take your word for it ' approach as well.

Benfleet A1 said:

Spell it out. Are you suggesting that you know who is to blame before the enquiry has come to any conclusions?

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Absoutely not.Though I don't think there can be any doubt, (as I've said before), that in the case of Grenfell the "stay put" policy cost some people their lives.

rigsby said:

Thanks for your expert opinion.

I do hope you haven't just read some brief headlines and jumped to that convenient conclusion, Otherwise the real reasons might be overlooked

I think the people who deliberately manufactured a better example of cladding, than the one they intended to supply, in order to pass tests...…..Should be the ones on trial for murder at the Old Bailey some time in the future.

The body who do the tests need to have a look at their 'I'll take your word for it ' approach as well.

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As you well know, I don't have an "expert opinion." Merely one as a concerned citizen.Otherwise I agree with your last 2 comments.

Having followed the inquiry quiet closely, it seems the one big and constant question is the 'stay put advice'

In doing so they have missed many other failures and mistakes by the LFB. By that I don't mean the individual Firefighter or junior officers.....I mean policies, cultures and cut backs.

The LFB do deserve criticism but I genuinely don't believe the 'Stay Put' contributed to a higher death rate.

The fact that the fire lift wasn't working meant all the Firefighters had to walk up the stairs with BA sets that do not last long enough (something my good self and many other have highlighted on numerous occasions) Unlike when you scuba dive we don't have a spare breathing mask. So the only way to lead people down is to have a spare BA set or share your air and mask. Many Firefighters did exactly that and only just made it out. Again highlighted on to many occasions including when 2 firefighters ran out of air and died in a fire in Bow in about 1991.

Some people were trying to carry suit cases down the stairs and even a pram. One woman described to me as around 30st died face down on the stairwell. She was almost impossible to move (you wont believe how difficult it is)

I doubt many Firefighters put this in their statements but she became a land mark and the only option was to climb over her to save other people.

Hardly anyone died lived on the first 10 floors and most of the deaths occur above the 20th floor. This included people who had run up from floors below as they could not get down due to heavy smoke.

Sadly the Firefighters entering that building had no chance of reaching those top floors with the equipment and fixed firefighting installations they had available.

Many simply had no choice but to break the golden rule of entering floors and flats with no water in order to rescue residents......From what I have heard it is amazing no Firefighters died that night and not a single one stepped back from his or her duties. I have spoken to people who genuinely thought they would never see their families again as they set off up those stairs. I am truly proud and honoured by their actions.

Firefighters were attacked in Kentish Town the other night by a gang of Somalians. The gang claimed it was for not helping the people of Grenfell.

They had been called to a 'persons reported' fire. Even the crew wearing BA and trying to carry out the rescue were attacked. Luckily other crews arrived and dealt with the fire.

I guess that the price of caving in to political pressure and allowing the inquire to be conducted backwards.