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Thread: Brexit negotiations thread

  1. #1696

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangled up in Blue View Post
    It is,of course,not "a total myth" at all.

    "All over Europe,economists are nervously scanning demographic trends and tripping over one inescapable fact:if national economies are going to grow at a level sufficient to provide pensions for the existing working population.then serious immigration is a necessity,whatever anyone feels about it.Few politicians choose to spell this out as boldly as they should.But immigration,far from being a threat to our way of life,might one day turn out to be quite the opposite:our best hope."
    Robert Winder,Bloody Foreigners,Revised and updated edition.2013.

    The retirement age here in Spain is in the process of being raised to 67 for everybody and not just the groups you mention.I retired a year ago today officially at 65 and 7 months (rather appropriately I think ) though I'm still working PT .This goes up by 2 months each year until it reaches 67.

    More to the point, the increase in the Spanish state pension this year was a derisory 0.25%, when the "official" inflation rate is 2%.That's the first time in recent Spanish history that pension increases haven't kept up with the official rate of inflation.That's likely to become much more common in the future and not just for Spain,either.The days of the triple lock pension in the UK will come to an end as soon as a UK government,whether Tory or Labour has the courage to pay the electoral price for abolishing it.That's perhaps not a bad thing,given that successive Tory and Labour governments have created the present imbalance between the economic prospects of the young and the elderly by greatly favouring the latter at the expense of the former.
    I was going to say how surprised I was that an old school socialist like yourself could be so easily duped by the people who really run the show......The financial elite.......Then again.

  2. #1697

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangled up in Blue View Post
    The (presumably) unintended irony of this remark is priceless.

    All UK governments since the Thatcher/Major era, (and that of course includes Bliar/Brown and Cameron /May), have strongly supported the opening up of the EEC/EU to new member states.In the UK's case,this was done in the mistaken belief that doing so would somehow weaken the decision-making balance of power at the centre,dominated by the axis of Germany and France.

    Of course, it remains to be seen what sort of trading deal will finally be made with the EU in the Brexit talks,.One thing can be taken as a given,however.Logically,the UK won't get a better deal with the EU outside the single market and customs union than it does already inside.
    If you want to know why each 'government' made such crass decisions read my previous post for the clue.

    We can have what trade deal we like, how about the same one the USA get which is better than ours and were still in the EU.

    We will be trading with the rest of the world, including cheaper food. As the EU trade shrinks every year we will become the country to deal with as every country in South America or Africa etc wont have large EU tariffs placed on their goods sold to the UK.

    We will the country to set up business in. Those scare stories about big financial institutions leaving are again a total myth. Small office in Luxemburg to get around the EU financial rules but the main business will always be done in London. As the EU collapses and you are left on the burning deck you'll have to look your grandchildren in the eye and explain why you couldn't see the absolute obvious future staring you in the face.

    Don't take this to personal but some of you remainers remind me of Neville Chamberlain waving your white piece of paper in hope rather than deal with the problem why we still can.

  3. #1698
    Certified Senior Citizen Tangled up in Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rigsby View Post
    I was going to say how surprised I was that an old school socialist like yourself could be so easily duped by the people who really run the show......The financial elite.......Then again.
    I'm fully aware ,thanks,that the main reason the (small) majority of the British public,who voted for Brexit did so, was to **** a snoop at the Establishment by giving a two-fingered salute.Quite understandable but nothing socialist about that.They will also have to pay quite a heavy economic price for it,unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by rigsby View Post
    If you want to know why each 'government' made such crass decisions read my previous post for the clue.

    We can have what trade deal we like, how about the same one the USA get which is better than ours and were still in the EU.

    We will be trading with the rest of the world, including cheaper food. As the EU trade shrinks every year we will become the country to deal with as every country in South America or Africa etc wont have large EU tariffs placed on their goods sold to the UK.

    We will the country to set up business in
    . Those scare stories about big financial institutions leaving are again a total myth. Small office in Luxemburg to get around the EU financial rules but the main business will always be done in London. As the EU collapses and you are left on the burning deck you'll have to look your grandchildren in the eye and explain why you couldn't see the absolute obvious future staring you in the face.

    Don't take this to personal but some of you remainers remind me of Neville Chamberlain waving your white piece of paper in hope rather than deal with the problem why we still can.
    On the contrary we will get the trade deal that the EU is prepared to give us.

    As to (some of your) other points.We already have one grandchild,though at 10 months old,he's understandably not quite capable of taking in rather complex economic arguments yet. Quite frankly, I don't think I'll have anything to apologise to him for, in the future,either.

    We will only be "the country to set up business in" as you assert, if we adopt a Singapore type,cheap labour, economic model on the periphery of the EU.I sincerely hope that doesn't happen,as after 8 years of Tory austerity and the financial costs of Brexit to come,I suspect things are going to be rather tough (at least in the short term) for people in the UK.We'll soon see, meanwhile, what sort of financial services "passporting" deal the city can negotiate with the EU.

    Talking about Tories-I see you've adopted Jacob Rees-Mogg's mantra about "cheaper food" after Brexit.That will almost certainly be the case.But as with Neville Chamberlain, (also a Tory incidentally), "peace in our time" came at rather a high price.As will Brexit and "cheaper food."
    Last edited by Tangled up in Blue; 02-04-2018 at 12:49 PM. Reason: typo
    "The British government is free to make a decision about its participation in the World Cup," he said.

    But nobody has the right to insult the Russian people - who defeated Nazism and lost more than 25 million people - by comparing our country to Nazi Germany.

    That goes beyond common sense."

    Alexander Yakovencko.Russian Ambassador to the UK:

  4. #1699
    *Come On The Football* callan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangled up in Blue View Post
    I'm fully aware ,thanks,that the main reason the (small) majority of the British public,who voted for Brexit did so, was to **** a snoop at the Establishment by giving a two-fingered salute.Quite understandable but nothing socialist about that.They will also have to pay quite a heavy economic price for it,unfortunately.



    On the contrary we will get the trade deal that the EU is prepared to give us.

    As to (some of your) other points.We already have one grandchild,though at 10 months old,he's understandbly not quite capable of taking in rather complex economic arguments yet. Quite frankly, I don't think I'll have anything to apologise to him for, in the future,either.

    We will only be "the country to set up business in" as you assert, if we adopt a Singapore type,cheap labour, economic model on the periphery of the EU.I sincerely hope that doesn't happen,as after 8 years of Tory austerity and the financial costs of Brexit to come,I suspect things are going to be rather tough (at least in the short term) for people in the UK.We'll see, meanwhile, if the city can negotiate some sort of financial services "passporting" deal with the EU.

    Talking about Tories-I see you've adopted Jacob Rees-Mogg's mantra about "cheaper food" after Brexit.That will almost certainly be the case.But as with Neville Chamberlain, (also a Tory incidentally), "peace in our time" came at rather a high price.As will Brexit and "cheaper food."
    Chip off the old block
    "But the significant thing is not that they happen, but that, even when they are known about, they provoke no reaction from the left-wing intelligentsia as a whole. The argument that to tell the truth would be "inopportune" or would "play into the hands of" somebody or other is felt to be unanswerable"

  5. #1700
    Certified Senior Citizen Tangled up in Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callan View Post
    Chip off the old block
    Ha! I imagine I have told you about my "A" level in Economics before now?
    "The British government is free to make a decision about its participation in the World Cup," he said.

    But nobody has the right to insult the Russian people - who defeated Nazism and lost more than 25 million people - by comparing our country to Nazi Germany.

    That goes beyond common sense."

    Alexander Yakovencko.Russian Ambassador to the UK:

  6. #1701

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    Quote Originally Posted by callan View Post
    Chip off the old block
    65 years on I hope he has a better grasp than his Grandfather. If I spend £100b more per year buying your goods than you spend buying mine......I hold all the cards. The German car manufactures know this, the people who arrived to trade goods 10,000 years ago knew this but some people who have never run a so much a cake stool at the school fete seem to shout the loudest.

    By the way Tangled when the Romans built Hadrian's wall they complained that the locals could charge to much for labour or use of carts etc.........If we have to rebuild the wall and remained in the EU, then at least this time it could be done with cheap foreign slave labour on 12 hour shifts and all the profits will be banked and taxed overseas.......No one will have to deal with any ghastly British workers trying to keep a roof over their heads and none of the public money will flow into the British economy.

    By voting out we will give the ordinary person a chance......A chance some of you seem to totally begrudge due to your political rather than economic stance.

  7. #1702
    Certified Senior Citizen Tangled up in Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rigsby View Post
    65 years on I hope he has a better grasp than his Grandfather. If I spend £100b more per year buying your goods than you spend buying mine......I hold all the cards. The German car manufactures know this, the people who arrived to trade goods 10,000 years ago knew this but some people who have never run a so much a cake stool at the school fete seem to shout the loudest.

    By the way Tangled when the Romans built Hadrian's wall they complained that the locals could charge to much for labour or use of carts etc.........If we have to rebuild the wall and remained in the EU, then at least this time it could be done with cheap foreign slave labour on 12 hour shifts and all the profits will be banked and taxed overseas.......No one will have to deal with any ghastly British workers trying to keep a roof over their heads and none of the public money will flow into the British economy.

    By voting out we will give the ordinary person a chance......A chance some of you seem to totally begrudge due to your political rather than economic stance.
    It's quite true I've never run a cake stall (nor would I want to) but I was self-employed for around 20 years.To be successful at that takes some doing these days, (especially in a foreign country).

    I happen to think that "the ordinary person" you talk about, will be precisely the one most affected negatively by Brexit.As they say in Spanish:"Ya veremos" (We'll see).

    Ironically,it was ,of course,precisely "the ordinary person" who voted for Brexit in so many parts of the country.
    Last edited by Tangled up in Blue; 03-04-2018 at 09:48 AM.
    "The British government is free to make a decision about its participation in the World Cup," he said.

    But nobody has the right to insult the Russian people - who defeated Nazism and lost more than 25 million people - by comparing our country to Nazi Germany.

    That goes beyond common sense."

    Alexander Yakovencko.Russian Ambassador to the UK:

  8. #1703

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    Quote Originally Posted by rigsby View Post
    I was going to say how surprised I was that an old school socialist like yourself could be so easily duped by the people who really run the show......The financial elite.......Then again.
    I am starting to find this whole thing, rather like the present state of the world, totally depressing IIRC, one of the reasons Cameron called a referendum was to heal the split in the Tory party, now, nearly two years down the line, the Tory party is as divided as ever ...........the Labour Party is split (on the detail of leaving)................and worst of all, the country is seemingly irreconcilably divided on the issue. Can't remember the exact detail but when Radio 4 used the <one year from Brexit> last week, to do a report from the North-East of the country, there was a Brexit supporter who remained faithful to his vote, even when it was likely to mean a reduction in his standard of living and could probably result in him losing his job. How on earth do you reconcile these entrenched opinions? On the point above Rigsby, do you honestly believe that by leaving the EU you will somehow avoid the 'financial elite?' Surely you must understand that there is 'an alternative elite' that has been ochestrating the Brexit move, with very much their own agenda. The ordinary Brexit voter are sadly only pawns in their high stakes game. If you believe that the ordinary working people are eventually going to benefit, I'm very much afraid you are sadly deluded. This is another tragic consequence of Brexit. Those who feel they have lost, or are losing eveything, desperately believe that things can't be worse than they are.................I'm very much afraid they can.
    "Celui qui renonce à devenir meilleur cesse déjà d'être bon." L Pasteur

  9. #1704

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogi bear up the cagire View Post
    I am starting to find this whole thing, rather like the present state of the world, totally depressing IIRC, one of the reasons Cameron called a referendum was to heal the split in the Tory party, now, nearly two years down the line, the Tory party is as divided as ever ...........the Labour Party is split (on the detail of leaving)................and worst of all, the country is seemingly irreconcilably divided on the issue. Can't remember the exact detail but when Radio 4 used the <one year from Brexit> last week, to do a report from the North-East of the country, there was a Brexit supporter who remained faithful to his vote, even when it was likely to mean a reduction in his standard of living and could probably result in him losing his job. How on earth do you reconcile these entrenched opinions? On the point above Rigsby, do you honestly believe that by leaving the EU you will somehow avoid the 'financial elite?' Surely you must understand that there is 'an alternative elite' that has been ochestrating the Brexit move, with very much their own agenda. The ordinary Brexit voter are sadly only pawns in their high stakes game. If you believe that the ordinary working people are eventually going to benefit, I'm very much afraid you are sadly deluded. This is another tragic consequence of Brexit. Those who feel they have lost, or are losing eveything, desperately believe that things can't be worse than they are.................I'm very much afraid they can.
    Your usual post of more project fear, bed wetting and insults to anyone who voted out. Meanwhile us true Brits continue to see how absolutely right we were to vote for Brexit.

    Maybe if you lived in Britain rather than sneer from another country you might actually understand. Your a great example of why expats should ever be allowed to vote.

  10. #1705

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    Quote Originally Posted by rigsby View Post
    Your usual post of more project fear, bed wetting and insults to anyone who voted out. Meanwhile us true Brits continue to see how absolutely right we were to vote for Brexit.

    Maybe if you lived in Britain rather than sneer from another country you might actually understand. Your a great example of why expats should ever be allowed to vote.
    I think (apart from the usual tirade of insults) you've rather (conveniently) missed the point. It's past the time of making pro or anti-Brexit remarks. What I'm depicting is not project fear but cold, frightening reality. The UK is now a country bitterly and unreconcilably divided. You provide no answer to the question of who is really behind the Brexit movement. You and many others , I no doubt , have deeply held political beliefs concerning Brexit but the shadowy manipulating figures in the background, as I have said, have their own agenda and that almost certainly is about money..............it's always about money, isn't it?
    "Celui qui renonce à devenir meilleur cesse déjà d'être bon." L Pasteur

  11. #1706

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogi bear up the cagire View Post
    I think (apart from the usual tirade of insults) you've rather (conveniently) missed the point. It's past the time of making pro or anti-Brexit remarks. What I'm depicting is not project fear but cold, frightening reality. The UK is now a country bitterly and unreconcilably divided. You provide no answer to the question of who is really behind the Brexit movement. You and many others , I no doubt , have deeply held political beliefs concerning Brexit but the shadowy manipulating figures in the background, as I have said, have their own agenda and that almost certainly is about money..............it's always about money, isn't it?
    Love that line by the way.

    Your another on who loves to give it out but can't take it. We voted out because of corruption on a massive scale in Brussels. We will now have more control over who spends our money and what they spend it on.

    The fact that you don't think we can do anything about it and should just close our eyes and ignore it, is a sad reflection on you.

    The fact that most left wing Labour supporters don't want Tories spending the money rather than the EU is only because they don't believe that they can genuinely win an election. Again if you all grew a pair between you think how better Britain would be.

  12. #1707
    Hector Of The House Benfleet A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rigsby View Post
    Love that line by the way.

    Your another on who loves to give it out but can't take it. We voted out because of corruption on a massive scale in Brussels. We will now have more control over who spends our money and what they spend it on.

    The fact that you don't think we can do anything about it and should just close our eyes and ignore it, is a sad reflection on you.

    The fact that most left wing Labour supporters don't want Tories spending the money rather than the EU is only because they don't believe that they can genuinely win an election. Again if you all grew a pair between you think how better Britain would be.
    Someone give the needle a nudge, records stuck again.
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  13. #1708

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    Quote Originally Posted by rigsby View Post
    Love that line by the way.

    Your another on who loves to give it out but can't take it. We voted out because of corruption on a massive scale in Brussels. We will now have more control over who spends our money and what they spend it on.

    The fact that you don't think we can do anything about it and should just close our eyes and ignore it, is a sad reflection on you.

    The fact that most left wing Labour supporters don't want Tories spending the money rather than the EU is only because they don't believe that they can genuinely win an election. Again if you all grew a pair between you think how better Britain would be.
    Tired of giving it out, tired of taking it and tired of being misunderstood by you but you're evidently too blinkered to see. Is it really worth wasting my time replying??? So you don't believe the country is bitterly and unreconcilably divided???? You believe by leaving the EU you will miraculously escape the clutches of a financial elite?...........don't worry, there's another one, maybe even worse and more rapacious, waiting in the wings. Sadly (and I mean that), your world doesn't exist anymore but I wish you 'bon courage' in trying to find it again. Lastly, I hope you are not trying to bunch me in with 'left-wing Labour supporters' yet again you're so wide of the mark.
    "Celui qui renonce à devenir meilleur cesse déjà d'être bon." L Pasteur

  14. #1709
    Certified Senior Citizen Tangled up in Blue's Avatar
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    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...tion-on-border

    Did anyone really think it wouldn't all come down to this?
    "The British government is free to make a decision about its participation in the World Cup," he said.

    But nobody has the right to insult the Russian people - who defeated Nazism and lost more than 25 million people - by comparing our country to Nazi Germany.

    That goes beyond common sense."

    Alexander Yakovencko.Russian Ambassador to the UK:

  15. #1710

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    Yet another guardian quote from TUIB!!

    Even as a non tory voter, your putting in a decent shift to make me not vote for labour ever!...i'm considering National front at this rate!! LOL

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