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Thread: Brexit negotiations thread

  
  1. #736

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    Quote Originally Posted by callan View Post
    Yogi, nothing I have ever written on here has probably served to re-assure you, and there is little purpose in attempting to re run the arguments that were made prior to the referendum.

    If you want my current take on where we are, it would be that we are moving in the right direction some of the time but not all...I believe we have until December to 'achieve', what the EU deems to be sufficient progress to move onto other areas....and certainly both sides will need to recognize that there will be the need for a series of 'trade offs', to reach that position....with both sides in danger of being Hamstrung for very different reasons.
    When can we expect the German car manufacturers to come running to our rescue?

    Also what type of trade offs will we have to concede? I thought we were supposed to have our cake and eat it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Football View Post
    They'll accept something they believe to be reasonable and workable. We have yet to work out what that is. They probably haven't either.

    There was some bloke on the tv last night lamenting how difficult and intransigent the EU were being. Seemed to think they should just give us what we want. It doesn't work like that. We've both been in the rooms, we know how it works and how it doesn't. The art of negotiation is to find common ground. Are they punishing us for leaving? Doubt it, the French, Dutch, Germans and especially the Irish need something.

    You've got on one hand the largest multi nation beaurocracy on the planet dealing with a government that not only doesn't know what it wants, but also doesn't understand how it works.

    I hope I am wrong, I really do, but I honestly can't see any movement to the situation.
    The EU set out their position months ago. To the extent we're not being intransigent it's because we haven't even agreed a position to try and stick to.

    It's disappointing that the issues that were raised in the referendum by Remainers have still not been addressed by the Leavers and in many cases barely recognised as issues. None of this should be taking us by surprise.

    May's decision to serve the Article 50 notice is the most reckless decision in British political history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Another Surrey Shrimper View Post
    Brexit = Fossets Farm
    Hardly.

    We've seen the plan for Fossets.
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  2. #737
    Super Moderator Lord Football's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshire Blue View Post
    May's decision to serve the Article 50 notice is the most reckless decision in British political history.
    No. It runs a poor second to Cameron's decision to hold a yes / no referendum on the most complex issue imaginable.

  3. #738

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    Anyone starting to think that Brexit won't actually happen now?

    Are the tories good enough to put the country before their party?
    disgusting smelling clique

  4. #739
    Duggee hug! MK Shrimper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pubey View Post
    Anyone starting to think that Brexit won't actually happen now?

    Are the tories good enough to put the country before their party?
    I'd love to say that yes, the article 50 will be revoked but sadly I think we're slowly chugging down the hill until we fall off it. The main players in the Tory party are millionaires - it will make f all difference to them if we fall into a massive recession or interest rates rocket.

  5. #740

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK Shrimper View Post
    I'd love to say that yes, the article 50 will be revoked but sadly I think we're slowly chugging down the hill until we fall off it. The main players in the Tory party are millionaires - it will make f all difference to them if we fall into a massive recession or interest rates rocket.
    Should I beg to differ? I present no proof but I have a sneaking suspicion that a hard Brexit could make many of these players a darn sight f richer!
    "Celui qui renonce à devenir meilleur cesse déjà d'être bon." L Pasteur

  6. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogi bear up the cagire View Post
    Should I beg to differ? I present no proof but I have a sneaking suspicion that a hard Brexit could make many of these players a darn sight f richer!
    You're probably right. The Tory Party, looking after No.1 since......forever.

  7. #742
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    So the Government sit on 50 secret documents outlining the likely impact of Brexit. I wonder why? They must be so good that we'd all throw our hands up in the air and get ready to party like it's March 2019.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-brexit-impact

  8. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK Shrimper View Post
    You're probably right. The Tory Party, looking after No.1 since......forever.
    Hey, its two way traffic you know. The EU are hardly helping matters here. Junker, as per usual, has found time to put his claret down to state nothing of purpose.

    The rights of EU citizens has been secured. What else do they want, do you know?

    There will be no hard border with Eire. What else do they want, do you know?

    We will be meeting our finanial obligations. What else do they want, do you know?

    We will be paying a divorce bill. What else do they want, do you know?

    We are continuely told talks are at a stand still but not being told why. ON BOTH SIDES.

    I said at vote I hope I wasn't wrong in voting remain. I'm beginning to think I might be.
    Lord, in your mercy please give my friend a stroke

  9. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benfleet A1 View Post
    Hey, its two way traffic you know. The EU are hardly helping matters here. Junker, as per usual, has found time to put his claret down to state nothing of purpose.

    The rights of EU citizens has been secured. What else do they want, do you know?

    There will be no hard border with Eire. What else do they want, do you know?

    We will be meeting our finanial obligations. What else do they want, do you know?

    We will be paying a divorce bill. What else do they want, do you know?

    We are continuely told talks are at a stand still but not being told why. ON BOTH SIDES.

    I said at vote I hope I wasn't wrong in voting remain. I'm beginning to think I might be.
    None of that has been agreed.

    Ahead of a European council summit next week, where leaders are expected to conclude that talks about any future trading relationship with Britain will have to be delayed due to a lack of progress on the issues of citizens’ rights, the Irish border and the divorce bill, Juncker also said the British were learning “day after day” about the perils of their choice to leave the bloc.

  10. #745

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benfleet A1 View Post
    Hey, its two way traffic you know. The EU are hardly helping matters here. Junker, as per usual, has found time to put his claret down to state nothing of purpose.

    The rights of EU citizens has been secured. What else do they want, do you know?
    They haven't been secured. There's been more encouraging noises and platitudes of late and the PM claimed in Florence that the UK has "set out that for those EU citizens currently living in the UK who have made the UK their home, including those 600, 000 Italians who are in the UK, we want them to be able to stay and to have the same rights as they have at the moment."

    However there are several issues with this.

    Firstly, the UK hasn't set this out. The UK's published proposals fell short of this. So is this a new proposal and the PM was wrong in saying it had been set out or is this the previous proposal and the PM is trying to mislead?

    This is something fundamental that needs to be determined before things can proceed. And if the PM is claiming that the existing proposal covers that then there's a fairly significant issue of trust when it clearly doesn't. If on the other hand this is a new promise, how do the EU know her promise is worth anything when the PM's own position is so precarious when her Foreign Secretary is openly plotting against her in the pages of the Telegraph? In that instance the EU clearly needs written confirmation so BoJo or David Davis can't backtrack if they replaces her as they clearly hope to before the negotiation are finalised.

    There will be no hard border with Eire. What else do they want, do you know?
    I don't think the statement that there will be no hard border with Eire can be taken seriously without addressing how this will be achieved. Wishing something happen is not the same as something happening - you only have to look at promises on the side of a bus to know this.

    I think it's likely at this stage that Ireland would veto any deal as there hasn't been sufficient progress on this issue from their perspective.

    We will be meeting our finanial obligations. What else do they want, do you know?
    There still seems to be some disagreement over what the financial obligations will be. I think this is the one issue where there will be concessions from both sides.

    May is a very one dimensional politician. Her whole underwhelming career has been based upon picking fights so she can be portrayed as a fighter - even when such fights are completely unnecessary and wasteful (see for example appealing the Gina Miller case at great cost to the taxpayer to achieve nothing except headlines in the Express and Mail). This will go to the brink when she'll back down but claim some EU concession as a great victory for Britain (even though that concession had probably been on the table for months).

    We will be paying a divorce bill. What else do they want, do you know?
    What will be covered in the divorce bill. See above.

    We are continuely told talks are at a stand still but not being told why. ON BOTH SIDES.

    I said at vote I hope I wasn't wrong in voting remain. I'm beginning to think I might be.
    The main issue in negotiations appears to be that the UK government still doesn't know what it is after so is still playing for time.

    There was no coherent Leave vision set out in the Referendum meaning there's no mandate. May's attempts at her bespoke Brexit were rejected in her snap election and the Tories are still fighting amongst themselves. The EU27 know what they want and this was set out months ago. They've been very transparent. Meanwhile the UK Cabinet still argue in the UK newspapers about what type of Brexit they are after.

    I was opposed to Brexit but must admit that I underestimated just how much of a shambles it would be. The EU set out their position within days of the UK prematurely serving Article 50. The UK is still scrambling around to find it's position and waiting in vain for the German car manufacturers to ride to their rescue.

    It's embarrassing.
    "probablyDefinitely THE most clueless idiot on here" - according to wiggy


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  11. #746

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    Quite simply, the EU hierarchy want money........and bucket-loads of it. The so-called negotiators on both sides leave a lot
    to be desired to say the least. The UK government is a shambles and the EU supremos are showing their true colours - of which many folk were well aware many moons ago (and well before the vote). It's all rather depressing.

  12. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaymac View Post
    Quite simply, the EU hierarchy want money........and bucket-loads of it. The so-called negotiators on both sides leave a lot
    to be desired to say the least. The UK government is a shambles and the EU supremos are showing their true colours - of which many folk were well aware many moons ago (and well before the vote). It's all rather depressing.
    You think people put that much thought into voting "leave"? It is, as we're all sadly finding out, far more complicated than anyone considered, including Gove, Bojo & the rest.

  13. #748

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    I, like many folk I know, voted leave for reasons going back many years. The love-in people have with the EU and all that entails is quite beyond me and I don't regard myself as being a dumbo or swayed in any way by all the cr*p that was spouted by both sides leading up to the referendum.

    Have to say Juncker and Barnier make a wonderful double-act....

  14. #749

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaymac View Post
    Quite simply, the EU hierarchy want money........and bucket-loads of it. The so-called negotiators on both sides leave a lot
    to be desired to say the least. The UK government is a shambles and the EU supremos are showing their true colours - of which many folk were well aware many moons ago (and well before the vote). It's all rather depressing.
    The money is in relation to things the British government has already agreed to fund.

    For example it is generally considered a good idea for planes to be regulated to try and minimise the number of times they fall out of the sky and kill people. To do this the British Government helped set up the European Aviation Safety Agency. The bods there need somewhere to sit, so they enter into a long leases of properties as that's cheaper than entering into lots of short leases and hired the necessary individuals to staff it. The cost of the leases and the employment of experts who keep us safe is then shared between all the EU members. When Britain leaves the EASA no longer needs to regulate Britain as Britain no longer has an aviation industry as it’s all grounded whilst the UK gets its act together. Who should bear the cost of downsizing an agency to deal with 28 countries into an agency that deals with 27 countries? What about the pensions of those individuals who kept Brits safe whilst we were flying for the last 35 years? Someone who joined as a junior member of staff will be retiring around now. The UK agreed to fund their pensions.

    Think also about the pension of the UK’s representatives in Brussels. Take Nigel Farage (please, please do). The ex-public school boy turned banker is approaching early retirement age. Who should pay his pension? The EU or the UK taxpayers who he so badly failed to serve?

    There are hundreds of these examples. Little arrangements where the UK has saved money by pooling experience and facilities with the EU so everything works smoother and the UK has to pay less by economies of scale. Areas where the UK didn't need to employ experts because the EU did on our behalf and we therefore had to pay less by sharing our costs.

    Our contributions to the EU are around 1% of the government's overall spending.
    "probablyDefinitely THE most clueless idiot on here" - according to wiggy


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  15. #750

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    If it were so simple I fail to see why neither side has proffered a sensible figure that might be negotiated and agreed upon as full n final. Too much posturing and political point-scoring methinks.

    There are others from the UK asides 'ol Nige (yuk!) who did very well from the gravy-train, NK springs readily to mind, labour man wasn't he. The amount of money going into the trough then spent by the EU piggies grows year after year, hence the annual requests for an increased budget which could finance a small country. Yet, for such a wonderful and trustworthy (ha) institution they cannot (or will not??) produce audited accounts and do not recognize the word 'economising' in any word, shape or form. Hmm....

    This being the very same EU that wanted Greece to join up knowing full well they were a financial basket case.

    Even 1pct of billions is still one helluva a lot of money......

    That's me lot, YB, good to read your views as I'm very open-minded on most things in life, just that the EU isn't one of them and never will be. Now, if it were the EEC and in it's early years that would be a different matter.

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