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Thread: Brexit negotiations thread

  1. #1936
    *Come On The Football* callan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshire Blue View Post
    It had the backing of 48.1%, which is more than any of the alternatives given those who voted Leave voted for a number of contradictory plans, none of which has a majority.

    In a First Past the Post system, remaining in the EU is actually still the most popular option.
    That's not quite correct though, the question was do you wish to remain in the EU, not a sum of it's parts.

    52 per cent voted leave as we know, meaning that the advise given to those in our Parliament by a majority was to exit the European Union.

    Are you now suggesting we put it back to the people as our Parliament have failed to follow our original advice?
    "But the significant thing is not that they happen, but that, even when they are known about, they provoke no reaction from the left-wing intelligentsia as a whole. The argument that to tell the truth would be "inopportune" or would "play into the hands of" somebody or other is felt to be unanswerable"

  2. #1937
    Certified Senior Citizen Tangled up in Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callan View Post
    Aren't according to some Corbyn and Co, supposedly a government in waiting, if so shouldn't they have a coherent plan on Brexit?
    With only 15 more MP's at the last GE Labour would be in government now.
    "The British government is free to make a decision about its participation in the World Cup," he said.

    But nobody has the right to insult the Russian people - who defeated Nazism and lost more than 25 million people - by comparing our country to Nazi Germany.

    That goes beyond common sense."

    Alexander Yakovencko.Russian Ambassador to the UK:

  3. #1938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangled up in Blue View Post
    With only 15 more MP's at the last GE Labour would be in government now.
    They aren't in government though.
    "But the significant thing is not that they happen, but that, even when they are known about, they provoke no reaction from the left-wing intelligentsia as a whole. The argument that to tell the truth would be "inopportune" or would "play into the hands of" somebody or other is felt to be unanswerable"

  4. #1939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshire Blue View Post
    I'm not talking about getting it past the PLP/Parliament, I'm talking about having something that the EU might be willing to agree to.

    And it is a major problem when you have a two party system and the opposition fails to provide a realistic alternative. This would have been sorted at the last general election if Labour had someone competent in charge.
    Labour will provide a "realistic alternative" to HMG by voting against Tory Brexit plans in the "meaningful vote".

    Corbyn, unlike May, has always been consistently against the EU.Both major parties are committed to taking the UK out of the EU.How is the issue here.All will be revealed in time.
    "The British government is free to make a decision about its participation in the World Cup," he said.

    But nobody has the right to insult the Russian people - who defeated Nazism and lost more than 25 million people - by comparing our country to Nazi Germany.

    That goes beyond common sense."

    Alexander Yakovencko.Russian Ambassador to the UK:

  5. #1940
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    Quote Originally Posted by callan View Post
    They aren't in government though.
    Quite.Watch this space.
    "The British government is free to make a decision about its participation in the World Cup," he said.

    But nobody has the right to insult the Russian people - who defeated Nazism and lost more than 25 million people - by comparing our country to Nazi Germany.

    That goes beyond common sense."

    Alexander Yakovencko.Russian Ambassador to the UK:

  6. #1941
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangled up in Blue View Post
    Labour will provide a "realistic alternative" to HMG by voting against Tory Brexit plans in the "meaningful vote".

    Corbyn, unlike May, has always been consistently against the EU.Both major parties are committed to taking the UK out of the EU.How is the issue here.All will be revealed in time.
    That time is running out, which is why I'm keen to know as no doubt are others how Labour intend to bring us out of the EU which is their stated position having supported the triggering of article 50.

    They like the Tories have had plenty of time now to come up with a clear Brexit policy, the fact that Labours supporters are unable to tell us what that is, whilst attacking the government for equally having no clue is double standards.
    "But the significant thing is not that they happen, but that, even when they are known about, they provoke no reaction from the left-wing intelligentsia as a whole. The argument that to tell the truth would be "inopportune" or would "play into the hands of" somebody or other is felt to be unanswerable"

  7. #1942

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    Quote Originally Posted by callan View Post
    That time is running out, which is why I'm keen to know as no doubt are others how Labour intend to bring us out of the EU which is their stated position having supported the triggering of article 50.

    They like the Tories have had plenty of time now to come up with a clear Brexit policy, the fact that Labours supporters are unable to tell us what that is, whilst attacking the government for equally having no clue is double standards.
    It's not double standards it realism. The opposition need to react to the changes in the situation dictated by the government position, and when that becomes an actual thing rather than an ongoing internal discussion, they then need to react to the EU's reaction to the government position.
    If Labour voters and constituencies were primarily Leave or Remain then Labour could take a position and stick to it. As that is not the case they would be foolish to take a fixed position on a fluid situation.

    Why are you so insistent on fully understanding the opposition position? Do you feel thoroughly let down by the government dealings on this and are looking for an alternative when this government folds?

  8. #1943

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    Quote Originally Posted by callan View Post
    That's not quite correct though, the question was do you wish to remain in the EU, not a sum of it's parts.

    52 per cent voted leave as we know, meaning that the advise given to those in our Parliament by a majority was to exit the European Union.

    Are you now suggesting we put it back to the people as our Parliament have failed to follow our original advice?
    I think government need to decide their preferred path and then put it to the people whether to go down that path (the alternative being to remain).

    This would have been unnecessary if Leave had campaigned on a single route. Instead they tried to have their cake and eat it by offering simultaneously EEA membership and WTA rules and everything in between which meant that they offered incompatible things.

    If we're talking about the will of the people:
    I'm certain there is not a majority for a Hard Brexit - too many people who voted Leave would change their vote if that was the alternative.
    I don't believe there's a majority for the Canada or Switzerland models. Again, this would disappoint too many Leavers who'd either change their vote or abstain.
    I don't believe there's a majority for the Norway model if the alternative is Remain (although if the alternative is Hard Brexit/Canada+ this is probably the option that garners the most support as this will attract some Remainers who see it as a way of limiting the damage).

    I'm willing for this to be put to the test by way of a referendum (I'm not a great fan of referenda on such multi-facted matters, but having let the genie out of the bottle, I think this is the most sensible way to proceed). Are leavers who shout that this is the will of the people prepared to put this to the test?
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  9. #1944

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshire Blue View Post
    It had the backing of 48.1%, which is more than any of the alternatives given those who voted Leave voted for a number of contradictory plans, none of which has a majority.

    In a First Past the Post system, remaining in the EU is actually still the most popular option.
    May declared the 2017 GE to be a request to give her a Brexit mandate. She lost her majority but the only party offering a 2nd referendum got 8%

    I want to remain in the EU as much as anyone but currently there is not a majority to remain, and there seems to be no consensus on how to leave either. It's a **** up and I expect it to fail expect that to mean we remain in the EU but acknowledge that the failure may mean we leave with no deal.

    All down to the Tories from start to finish though, what happens between now and the theoretical leave date is still in their hands.

  10. #1945

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Surrey Shrimper View Post
    May declared the 2017 GE to be a request to give her a Brexit mandate. She lost her majority but the only party offering a 2nd referendum got 8%

    I want to remain in the EU as much as anyone but currently there is not a majority to remain, and there seems to be no consensus on how to leave either. It's a **** up and I expect it to fail expect that to mean we remain in the EU but acknowledge that the failure may mean we leave with no deal.

    All down to the Tories from start to finish though, what happens between now and the theoretical leave date is still in their hands.
    Indeed there's no majority on how to leave.

    Therefore the course of action with the most support is actually to remain!
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  11. #1946

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshire Blue View Post
    Indeed there's no majority on how to leave.

    Therefore the course of action with the most support is actually to remain!
    really what the referendum required was 'if you voted Leave move on to section 2, if you voted Remain move on to section 3' etc to find out what people actually wanted, but Cameron assumed a Remain result so didn't plan beyond that.

  12. #1947

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Surrey Shrimper View Post
    really what the referendum required was 'if you voted Leave move on to section 2, if you voted Remain move on to section 3' etc to find out what people actually wanted, but Cameron assumed a Remain result so didn't plan beyond that.
    He knew either way, it wouldn't affect him.

  13. #1948

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Surrey Shrimper View Post
    really what the referendum required was 'if you voted Leave move on to section 2, if you voted Remain move on to section 3' etc to find out what people actually wanted, but Cameron assumed a Remain result so didn't plan beyond that.
    That would make no sense either if a narrow majority voted Leave but there was minimal support for any of the Leave options. The mistake was it not providing a clear alternative to remain. Had the referendum been any of Remain v Norway; Remain v Canada; Remain v WTO rules Remain would have won.

    A clear tactical error from Cameron.
    "probablyDefinitely THE most clueless idiot on here" - according to wiggy


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  14. #1949

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshire Blue View Post
    That would make no sense either if a narrow majority voted Leave but there was minimal support for any of the Leave options. The mistake was it not providing a clear alternative to remain. Had the referendum been any of Remain v Norway; Remain v Canada; Remain v WTO rules Remain would have won.

    A clear tactical error from Cameron.
    if those intending to vote Leave didn't want to back any of the Leave options they would vote Remain or not vote at all

  15. #1950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Surrey Shrimper View Post
    It's not double standards it realism. The opposition need to react to the changes in the situation dictated by the government position, and when that becomes an actual thing rather than an ongoing internal discussion, they then need to react to the EU's reaction to the government position.
    If Labour voters and constituencies were primarily Leave or Remain then Labour could take a position and stick to it. As that is not the case they would be foolish to take a fixed position on a fluid situation.

    Why are you so insistent on fully understanding the opposition position? Do you feel thoroughly let down by the government dealings on this and are looking for an alternative when this government folds?
    I feel let down by both parties.

    Neither has a clear path of direction on leaving and both are split on the best way to enact the will of the people which is to leave.

    I have asked with increasing regularity on this thread what is Labours brexit position...the closest we have got so far is that it is something like EEA but not that.

    It should, for a nailed on Labour supporter and activist like yourself be easy to answer, so why can't do so?

    My take is that they don't actually have a position and are hopping from one foot to another, if they have a position of their own that is potentially better than HMG's surely it would be there for all to see?
    "But the significant thing is not that they happen, but that, even when they are known about, they provoke no reaction from the left-wing intelligentsia as a whole. The argument that to tell the truth would be "inopportune" or would "play into the hands of" somebody or other is felt to be unanswerable"

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