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33 years ago - I know you live in the past but still. A better comparison would have been the riots from a few summers ago where police tatics were largely to hold and monitor, collate information and act upon it. Looters are still being nicked today over this.
Oh, and it was South Yorkshire police but who cares about facts on these pages.

You were the one who first mentioned the 80's in your previous post.

Though a more recent and relevant parallel,IMO, would be that of the Scottish referendum, which was pefectly legal,since the SNP petitoned HMG (under Cameron) to hold one.
 
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if there is independence or if there is civil war the use of military police will be the cause IMO.
Question - probably for Barna - Catalonia is just part of the Spanish Basque region I assume - for now the rest is planning to stay Spanish?

Cataluña is an autonomous state as is the Basque Country, (there are other regions which have the same status too), all within the Spanish state.

Catalonia is certainly not part of the Basque Country, although (it's true) both regions are in Northern Spain.
 
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Further to the above points, a map showing the regions of Spain (there are, in turn, provinces within many of these regions)...

image003.jpg
 
I see they're going to announce independence from Spain in a few days. Civil war anyone?

Also, I wonder those in the Basque region of France will follow suit?[/QUOTE]

Certainly don't think so.

What an almighty mess the Spanish Guv have made of this whole business. I am surprised that there hasn't been dissolving of their parliament, cabinet, inter party rows etc.
I remember reading, not long back, that Spain has more politicians per head of population than anywhere else in Europe; and more levels of "parish, local, "county, regional, national offices. Bureaucracy bonkers apparently?

It's quite true that Mariano Rajoy has handled the issue incredibly insensitively but the local Catalan government have effectively played into his hands by causing the present impasse, by insisting on holding an illegal referendum,which they knew they would win despite a low turnout.Effectively declaring UDI either later this week or early next week won't improve matters either.

Rajoy's odious PP (centre-right,Popular Party) are in control of the national government.They never do well in Cataluña,which partly explains their attitude to the current crisis.

You're quite right as to your last point.There are at least 5 autonomous regions in Spain (IIRC) all having their own regional civil servants,who often duplicate the roles of the national state ones.That's been (part of) the price of keeping the regions happy for the last 40 years.
 
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Cataluña is an autonomous state as is the Basque Country, (there are other regions which have the same status too), all within the Spanish state.

Catalonia is certainly not part of the Basque Country, although (it's true) both regions are in Northern Spain.
thanks for that team, I always thought Catalonia was part of the Basque question. No way is this coming to a smooth conclusion soon.
 
I see they're going to announce independence from Spain in a few days. Civil war anyone?

Also, I wonder those in the Basque region of France will follow suit?[/QUOTE]

Certainly don't think so.



It's quite true that Mariano Rajoy has handled the issue incredibly insensitively but the local Catalan government have effectively played into his hands by causing the present impasse, by insisting on holding an illegal referendum,which they knew they would win despite a low turnout.Effectively declaring UDI either later this week or early next week won't improve matters either.

Rajoy's odious PP (centre-right,Popular Party) are in control of the national government.They never do well in Cataluña,which partly explains their attitude to the current crisis.

You're quite right as to your last point.There are at least 5 autonomous regions in Spain (IIRC) all having their own regional civil servants,who often duplicate the roles of the national state ones.That's been (part of) the price of keeping the regions happy for the last 40 years.

It may have been a low turn out but those crowds the following days protesting about the police tactics looked pretty large to me (I am a Southend fan mind) I think it's already been said but I just can't see why Madrid didn't let them get on with it and then tell them to pipe the result as it wasn't legal - the whole world would have backed them. Now it is in danger of making martyr's out of the lot of them - playing straight into their hands.
You can not beat peaceful protesters with big sticks and expect no repercussions.
 
It may have been a low turn out but those crowds the following days protesting about the police tactics looked pretty large to me (I am a Southend fan mind) I think it's already been said but I just can't see why Madrid didn't let them get on with it and then tell them to pipe the result as it wasn't legal - the whole world would have backed them. Now it is in danger of making martyr's out of the lot of them - playing straight into their hands.
You can not beat peaceful protesters with big sticks and expect no repercussions.

Madrid did precisely this 3 years ago, when there was a so-called "advisory" referendum on independence, called by the Catalan government, (which even I could have voted in but didn't).That was also illegal.Since then the Catalan government have just been racking up the pressure on Madrid,quite deliberately.

I happen to agree with your last sentence though.Unfortunately, what happened on Sunday is almost certain to be repeated,in some form or other, if "independence" is soon declared illegally.
 
Would have been better to let them get on with it and then just ignore the result - similar to what the canadian government do with Quebec who never cease to bleat on about independence - when I was there the prime minster was French Canadian and even he lost his patience with the province - Montreal and to a lesser extent Quebec City, there's sweet FA going for it.
 
Would have been better to let them get on with it and then just ignore the result - similar to what the canadian government do with Quebec who never cease to bleat on about independence - when I was there the prime minster was French Canadian and even he lost his patience with the province - Montreal and to a lesser extent Quebec City, there's sweet FA going for it.

As I said, the Spanish government tried that approach 3 years ago.Didn't calm things down though.

Most people in Montreal are genuinely bi-lingual (English & French), whereas Quebec city (and the province) is monolingual, French speaking.We were there back in the 90's.

Interestingly,the Catalans often cite Quebec as an example they'd like to follow, though as you say,it's not independent.Nor I fear, will Cataluña be any time soon.
 
A


Interestingly,the Catalans often cite Quebec as an example they'd like to follow, though as you say,it's not independent.Nor I fear, will Cataluña be any time soon.

Do they, the separatists, propose to withdraw from the EU? if not then any notion of independence is largely irrelevant isn't it?
 
Do they, the separatists, propose to withdraw from the EU? if not then any notion of independence is largely irrelevant isn't it?

No.The local Catatan government very much want to stay members of the EU.Just like the SNP did,Jim.And we all know how well that went for them. Independence now likely to be declared on Monday after a debate in the Catalan parliament.Watch this space.:cry:
 
If and when the declaration of independence happens the Catalans will stop allowing money transfers to Madrid/Spain?
And then Madrid will stop paying civil servants in Catalan?
The EU won't get its pro rata payments?
With Schengen the borders won't be too much of an issue but the rest..................
It might be interesting!
 
If and when the declaration of independence happens the Catalans will stop allowing money transfers to Madrid/Spain?
And then Madrid will stop paying civil servants in Catalan?
The EU won't get its pro rata payments?
With Schengen the borders won't be too much of an issue but the rest..................
It might be interesting!

The questions you ask are all relevant.Nobody knows the answers (yet).

I'm reminded of what the Chinese (apparently) say: "may you not live in interesting times".:cry:

Cataluña is the third richest region in Spain (after Madrid and the Basque country) so finance is obviously an important factor here.
 
I'm surprised it's been a bit quiet on here lately, considering the Catalan leader et al fled to Belgium last week, and Spain putting out an international arrest warrant on them, on the grounds of rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds.

That being said, I think it was probably swept under the media carpet, what with Phil off to Sunderland and us losing to Yeovil etc taking up the global limelight. :smile:
 
I'm surprised it's been a bit quiet on here lately, considering the Catalan leader et al fled to Belgium last week, and Spain putting out an international arrest warrant on them, on the grounds of rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds.

That being said, I think it was probably swept under the media carpet, what with Phil off to Sunderland and us losing to Yeovil etc taking up the global limelight. :smile:

8 ministers jailed and the Catalonian President likely to be hauled back from Belguim to face the same fate. Any more desent will be crushed by Madrid with, I suspect, the EU's blessing simply because they do not want anymore splits within the union. I read somewhere that there are regions in Italy, Belguim and Germany that would all like to do the same but their respective countries would never allow it and Catalonia being stamped on will help enforce it.
 
A strike has been called here again for Wednesday but it probably won't be a general strike this time.

We had a good friend over for lunch yesterday.She's West Indian by birth (though has taken out Spanish nationality).She works for a well known (private) Catalan Secondary school in Barcelona (where she teaches some of the jailed ministers' kids) ,will be retiring in June and was clearly distraught about the current political situation and her treatment by her colleagues,at a school where she's worked for over 30 years.Like most (though not all ) long term expats I know here, she's not in favour of Catalan independence.Unlike me, she voted to that effect in the so-called "advisory" referendum 3 years ago.

It seems to me to be a pity that the rule of law and democracy don't seem to be comptatible in present day Catalonia.Eventually, the Spanish constitution will have to be changed to allow for more legal regional self-determination.Unfortunately, that day seem to be still a long way off.

It will certainly be interesting to see what happens in the new elections here on December 21st.
 
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I saw on the evening news that Carles Puigdemont has been arrested and detained in Germany on a European arrest warrant, and that scuffles have broken out again across Catalonia between protesters and police.
 
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