The cost of living in the south east

Bearded Shrimper said:

Two contrasting case studies to not really prove anything:
I turn 33 in January, and earn just under 30k doing policy work for a charity.
My mrs has chronic fatigue syndrome and earns under 10k as a temp teaching assistant working 5 mornings a week.
We'd both love to move out to essex (I'm from Basildon and she's from Nottingham) but the work has to be there.
I've looked at moving on to other types of work but my experience and my age means I'm stuck because everything I am qualified to do is in or around SW1.

we both put the maximum every month in to help to buy ISAs but it is nothing compared to the cost of actually buying a place.

I've lived in the area in Lewisham where we live for 15 years and we love it here but we're going to have to move. Currently we have our eyes on Dagenham in 2019, but that's if prices don't sky rocket there.

Basically, saying people should save doesn't cut it for me. Saving 200-500 a month like i do is a lot for me but nothing in terms of actually getting anywhere.

We build more, build up, we build out and we need to talk about numbers coming in

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I'm sorry. I was in total agreement and empathy with you until your last sentence.

Perhaps you can explain why "numbers coming in" have had any effect on on your possible (future) failure to get on the housing ladder in Dagenham?

(FWIW, I used to live in my brother's (not RobNoxious,the other one's) flat in Lewisham in Belmont Hill).

Tangled up in Blue said:

I'm sorry. I was in total agreement and empathy with you until your last sentence.

Perhaps you can explain why "numbers coming in" have have had any effect on on your possible (future) failure to get on the housing ladder in Dagenham?

(FWIW, I used to live in my brother's (not RobNoxious,the other one's) flat in Lewisham in Belmont Hill).

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Good old Tangled playing dumb on the immigration problem and pointing the accusatory finger at yet another innocent zoner.

You know full well that its simple economics of supply and demand. More unskilled workers arriving means more need for low cost housing.

We aren't as big or corrupt as Spain so building houses is impossible to keep up, especially in the SE of England.

Perhaps we should take a leaf out of Spain's book and use institutionalised racism to make our country less attractive to immigrants....especially asylum seekers.

Tangled up in Blue said:

Things won't change until local councils are allowed to borrow more (at the current near record, low rates of interest) and build much more social housing.

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Things aren't that simple though. In Lewisham, for example, there just is not space for mass home building. The council owns very little land and so being able to borrow to build would only make a marginal difference.
When they attempt to utilise what little land they do have that is frequently opposed, usually from the left. I apologise for making a political point but those affiliated with Corbyn/Momentum tend to oppose what little housing the council is able to provide.
Being able to borrow is one thing, but without the land in the areas where the demand is that won't scratch the surface.

Tangled up in Blue said:

I'm sorry. I was in total agreement and empathy with you until your last sentence.

Perhaps you can explain why "numbers coming in" have have had any effect on on your possible (future) failure to get on the housing ladder in Dagenham?

(FWIW, I used to live in my brother's (not RobNoxious,the other one's) flat in Lewisham in Belmont Hill).

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It's not specific to Dagenham. Essentially the housing crisis will be solved by a combination of building up, building out, better use of current space and distrubition of current and future stock.

Net immigration to the UK is something like 300,000 per year. The current net housing requirement is something around 300,000 per year. I have no problem with many of the individual immigrants but the numbers and distribution is clearly not working out.

As Rigsby says, it is supply and demand.
But supply is constrained. I personally want as little green space (fields etc.) to be built on as possible because the environment is hugely important to me and climate change is probably the most important thing in the world. I also do not personally want to live in a highrise block.
Therefore, if supply is constrained then demand must be reduced if you have the preferences that I have.
Without getting off in to the other aspects of/arguements about immigration this is where and why it is relevant to housing.

You will notice I mentioned distribution. Clearly we cannot allow 'buy to let' and the buying up of property as investment to continue as it is. I do not know how much that effects things but it is a factor as well, but the points about supply and demand remain relevant.

finally, I think the more needs to be done to move things away from London so it is easier to get jobs etc outside of the south East. To me, this is needed even if the south east and London loses out. We can't just pushing the south east to breaking point while the rest of the country goes under utilised. And for that maybe the south east needs to lose out, and to me that is acceptable

One of the problems is cultural in that us English want our own homes. It's common in other cultures to have generations in the same home. Apparently 30% of adults in England live alone. It's the way we are.

rigsby said:

Good old Tangled playing dumb on the immigration problem and pointing the accusatory finger at yet another innocent zoner.

You know full well that its simple economics of supply and demand. More unskilled workers arriving means more need for low cost housing.

We aren't as big or corrupt as Spain so building houses is impossible to keep up, especially in the SE of England.

Perhaps we should take a leaf out of Spain's book and use institutionalised racism to make our country less attractive to immigrants....especially asylum seekers.

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I'd recomend you have a look at Clair Will's Lovers and Strangers :An immigrant History of Post War Britain.It puts the whole immigration debate in context.The situation is much more complex and nuanced than you suggest.

I'll ignore your crass remarks about Spain,if you don't mind.

Bearded Shrimper said:

Things aren't that simple though. In Lewisham, for example, there just is not space for mass home building. The council owns very little land and so being able to borrow to build would only make a marginal difference.
When they attempt to utilise what little land they do have that is frequently opposed, usually from the left. I apologise for making a political point but those affiliated with Corbyn/Momentum tend to oppose what little housing the council is able to provide.
Being able to borrow is one thing, but without the land in the areas where the demand is that won't scratch the surface.

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Certainly brown belt land should be used for social housing,whereever possible,on a "use it or lose it basis".

While I'm not a Momentum member, (almost certainly would be if I still lived in the UK), I certainly don't oppose any councils providing social housing.

Bearded Shrimper said:

finally, I think the more needs to be done to move things away from London so it is easier to get jobs etc outside of the south East. To me, this is needed even if the south east and London loses out. We can't just pushing the south east to breaking point while the rest of the country goes under utilised. And for that maybe the south east needs to lose out, and to me that is acceptable

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Spot on, our little part of South East Essex is full to overflowing, the road infrastructure cannot cope - rush hour begins at 3.30 and goes on until 6.45 - hospitals can't cope with demand, senior schools are packed yet still manage to retain their high standards under the OFSTED framework, doctors' surgeries are full.....yet, local councils continue to allow blocks of flats to be built in questionable areas to meet their quotas for affordable housing yet they inevitably all end up being taken over by landlords rather than helping the people they were meant to.

Head out of our area and look at the open spaces, fields (ok, I know it's farmland and green belt in some cases) etc and you wonder why things can't be spread out more evenly. I despair for my beautiful country and what it's coming to.

Tangled up in Blue said:

I'd recomend you have a look at Clair Will's Lovers and Strangers :An immigrant History of Post War Britain.It puts the whole immigration debate in context.The situation is much more complex and nuanced than you suggest.

I'll ignore your crass remarks about Spain,if you don't mind.



Certainly brown belt land should be used for social housing,whereever possible,on a "use it or lose it basis".

While I'm not a Momentum member, (almost certainly would be if I still lived in the UK), I certainly don't oppose any councils providing social housing.

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the issue with 'brown belt' land is there is not enough of it, that is why I gave the example of Lewisham. There is just not enough land to meet demand.

Councils especially don't have enough land so they need to do deals with developers. Even if they had the money they still don't have the land so they need to be pragmatic

OldBlueLady said:

Spot on, our little part of South East Essex is full to overflowing, the road infrastructure cannot cope - rush hour begins at 3.30 and goes on until 6.45 - hospitals can't cope with demand, senior schools are packed yet still manage to retain their high standards under the OFSTED framework, doctors' surgeries are full.....yet, local councils continue to allow blocks of flats to be built in questionable areas to meet their quotas for affordable housing yet they inevitably all end up being taken over by landlords rather than helping the people they were meant to.

Head out of our area and look at the open spaces, fields (ok, I know it's farmland and green belt in some cases) etc and you wonder why things can't be spread out more evenly. I despair for my beautiful country and what it's coming to.

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totally agree. I am always very vary of building on that beautiful countryside/open spaces, I really don't want it to be built on which is why I think we need to look at other options rather than just building more and more in areas that are already overcrowded

Bearded Shrimper said:

the issue with 'brown belt' land is there is not enough of it, that is why I gave the example of Lewisham. There is just not enough land to meet demand.

Councils especially don't have enough land so they need to do deals with developers. Even if they had the money they still don't have the land so they need to be pragmatic

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That claim is debateable.If it were true ,personally, I'd be quite happy to build more garden cities on green belt land.

As far as councils having to do deals with developers is concerned,that's why I suggested the need for "use it or lose it " legislation.As I'm sure you'll remember, that was an Ed Miliband housing policy commitment.

Tangled up in Blue said:

That claim is debateable.If it were true ,personally, I'd be quite happy to build more garden cities on green belt land.

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ok, well two of my local councillors have both told me that a) there isn't enough land and b) that there isn't enough land that the council owns/can access. I am inclined to believe them. Should I not?

On the other point that is something we will need to disagree on, I want to preserve our green belt