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The NHS thread

Hold up, let's have it right, yesterday MK actually told Rigsby that he was on a quest to solely wind up right-wing people? What's good for one, is surely good for the other?

You're quite correct, didn't see that post.
 
Why can’t doctors have the basics in their surgery and give them to people? Why the need for a prescription for anything you can get over the counter? Surely that would save money (and time) where patients get free medicine?


re doctors and nurses , the future is worse than people understand.
Nurses
nursing students no longer get a bursary or any additional funding . They pay the same fees as everyone else BUT are working for NOTHING in hospitals within weeks of starting their course. How is that fair? Result - nursing applications at university’s are dropping like a stone

doctors
birmingham university has one of our biggest populations of students taking medicine ( I think the biggest but not sure)For the first time ever they could not fill all there places and places went into clearing. This is unheard of, medicine never goes into clearing- never ever ever. Students with poorer grades have been taken on as the uni will be finned by the government if they don’t meet their quota. This set of students has just had the lowest scores for first years ever! ( there’s a reason why the application process is so vigorous).Either there are going to be loads of kids dropping out or potentially a drop in the standard of doctors coming out at the end.

this trend is expected to continue unless being a doctor becomes more desirable again.

When the government talks about more doctors and nurses, normally at a general election, where exactly are they coming from?
 
Why can’t doctors have the basics in their surgery and give them to people? Why the need for a prescription for anything you can get over the counter? Surely that would save money (and time) where patients get free medicine?


re doctors and nurses , the future is worse than people understand.
Nurses
nursing students no longer get a bursary or any additional funding . They pay the same fees as everyone else BUT are working for NOTHING in hospitals within weeks of starting their course. How is that fair? Result - nursing applications at university’s are dropping like a stone

doctors
birmingham university has one of our biggest populations of students taking medicine ( I think the biggest but not sure)For the first time ever they could not fill all there places and places went into clearing. This is unheard of, medicine never goes into clearing- never ever ever. Students with poorer grades have been taken on as the uni will be finned by the government if they don’t meet their quota. This set of students has just had the lowest scores for first years ever! ( there’s a reason why the application process is so vigorous).Either there are going to be loads of kids dropping out or potentially a drop in the standard of doctors coming out at the end.

this trend is expected to continue unless being a doctor becomes more desirable again.

When the government talks about more doctors and nurses, normally at a general election, where exactly are they coming from?

Just because someone is less good academically doesn't mean they won't become a good doctor. So long as they still qualify they will have proved they were worthy of the place. They may then excel at the other stuff that makes someone a good doctor...who knows. Personally I wouldn't say that standards will (may) fall as it is just as likely that they'll improve.

The real worry is what you mentioned earlier, that intake is falling, and over a sustained period that will be an issue.
 
Just because someone is less good academically doesn't mean they won't become a good doctor. So long as they still qualify they will have proved they were worthy of the place. They may then excel at the other stuff that makes someone a good doctor...who knows. Personally I wouldn't say that standards will (may) fall as it is just as likely that they'll improve.

The real worry is what you mentioned earlier, that intake is falling, and over a sustained period that will be an issue.

I'm happy to accept that argument for nurses.Not for doctors.Remember the debate a while back about making teaching an all graduate profession.That was always a no-brainer IMO.
 
I'm happy to accept that argument for nurses.Not for doctors.Remember the debate a while back about making teaching an all graduate profession.That was always a no-brainer IMO.

They'll still be graduates. If they qualify then they have proved themselves capable of being a doctor regardless of their A Level grades. We're still talking As and Bs...
 
Just because someone is less good academically doesn't mean they won't become a good doctor. So long as they still qualify they will have proved they were worthy of the place. They may then excel at the other stuff that makes someone a good doctor...who knows. Personally I wouldn't say that standards will (may) fall as it is just as likely that they'll improve.

The real worry is what you mentioned earlier, that intake is falling, and over a sustained period that will be an issue.

I understand what you are saying, but the standards are there for a reason, the pressure the students are under is enormous especially in the first two years. the fall our rate is already higher than normal (therefore less doctors in 5 years). most people have no idea the constant pressure they are under, its almost intolerable

yes they may still pass,(and i hope they do) but that doesn't mean the standard has not dropped.

but the main point was the fact they could not feel the spaces


the drop off rate for this year is higher than normal- fact
 
They'll still be graduates. If they qualify then they have proved themselves capable of being a doctor regardless of their A Level grades. We're still talking As and Bs...


as opposed to 2 A*' and 2 As often not being enough to even get an interview let alone a place !

So AAB is a MASSIVE reduction from A*A* A A and doing well in your interview.In every other year Students who want to be doctors but get AAB go into nursing if they still want to work in the profession, or do a related degree and then do medicine afterwards
 
I understand what you are saying, but the standards are there for a reason, the pressure the students are under is enormous especially in the first two years. the fall our rate is already higher than normal (therefore less doctors in 5 years). most people have no idea the constant pressure they are under, its almost intolerable

yes they may still pass,(and i hope they do) but that doesn't mean the standard has not dropped.

but the main point was the fact they could not feel the spaces


the drop off rate for this year is higher than normal- fact

I happen to have a lot of friends that are doctors, all of whom I either lived with or was friendly with when they were students. All of them handled the pressure differently. One made himself physically sick, others took it in their stride. One actually failed her 1st year and had to re-take. The one that made himself physically sick is probably the most academic of the lot (certainly he's the one that was considered - and still is - the high flyer.) Grades aren't a good indicator of the ability to handle pressure.

Regardless of A Level grades, if a person gets through their medical exams they have proved themselves. Medical exams (as I'm sure you either already know, or will soon find out) are something on a completely different level to anything anyone will have done before. If a person passes those then they have proved themselves worthy of the place, and their starting point (i.e. their A Level grades) would become a non-issue.

The issue for me is the fallout rate, not the people that pass. The lowering of entrance criteria may lead to a higher fallout rate, but it won't lead to a drop in standards of those that pass.

Moreover, just because someone gets all A*s doesn't mean they'll have a good bedside manner. There are a lot of doctors that are gifted academically, but can't handle a patient for toffee. There's a whole lot more to being a doctor than passing exams. Who's to say whether or not these "less academic" medics won't actually raise standards in that respect?


as opposed to 2 A*' and 2 As often not being enough to even get an interview let alone a place !

So AAB is a MASSIVE reduction from A*A* A A and doing well in your interview.In every other year Students who want to be doctors but get AAB go into nursing if they still want to work in the profession, or do a related degree and then do medicine afterwards

I was only guessing at the grades. If you usually need all A*s to get into medical school and they're now taking people that didn't get the grades I doubt very much they'll be going as low as someone that got all Bs (for example). I was only making a point. However, that is largely irrelevant now that the grading system has changed. Really we should be talking in terms of 7s-9s. Anyway, see above for my views on grades.

However, the grades needed to enter medical school already vary depending on which hospital you want to study at so if some of the hospitals with the harder entrance criteria need to reduce their requirements then so be it:

Taken from the UCAS website:

To become a doctor you need to complete a five-year degree in medicine. Entry requirements vary, ... You also need a minimum of three A levels at grades AAA or AAB in chemistry and either biology, physics or maths, plus another academic subject.
 
It isn't going to be easy and none of the current parties and politicos have the energy or proper incentives to sort it as they would risk alienating too many voters so in my opinion a non party reform strategy which is not aligned with any political party is needed with a caveat that it will happen in the near future whatever party is in power; so it is not a vote winner/loser BUT is in the best interest of a sustainable, viable future NHS: with me so far?

Ideas? In no priority order.
Phase out agency staff with more use of overtime + better pay and bonuses for current staff.
Cut admin staff by reducing targets and monitors of people monitoring other bean counters.
Allow NHS to source drugs at cheapest options not just from major pharma companies (who have many many ex MPs on their boards!)
Charge for ambulances that are called unnecessarily and black list repeat offenders.
Put those with "socially" gained medical conditions (fat, diabetes, smoking, drink, drugs, STDs) on patient contracts which if not followed would result in "patient" carrying costs.
mandatory prison sentence for criminal acts involving NHS staff/premises; i.e. and including so drunk end up at A&E.
Reduced Uni fees for 2nd year study and free fees for third year/qualification for nurses; similar for doctors/dentists/physios etc. Train military medics (signed up for 6 years) to nursing uni/degree standard so it offers real career while being paid and serving country.

just a few ideas while I am bored.
 
Well done I like them all.

The only problem is you would be improving the service, help ordinary workers, and save money but without allowing overpaid managers or private companies to profit from the NHS......That's never going to happen....is it.
 
Well done I like them all.

The only problem is you would be improving the service, help ordinary workers, and save money but without allowing overpaid managers or private companies to profit from the NHS......That's never going to happen....is it.

Sadly what you state is TOO true, both for NHS and Defense. It is also the main thrust of Corduroy, in that he does not appear to be in the pocket of monied self interest, yet he will pander to the low standard required to get as many votes he can without doing what is the required, hard, but true action required. Red or blue same pooh.
 
It isn't going to be easy and none of the current parties and politicos have the energy or proper incentives to sort it as they would risk alienating too many voters so in my opinion a non party reform strategy which is not aligned with any political party is needed with a caveat that it will happen in the near future whatever party is in power; so it is not a vote winner/loser BUT is in the best interest of a sustainable, viable future NHS: with me so far?

Ideas? In no priority order.
Phase out agency staff with more use of overtime + better pay and bonuses for current staff.
Cut admin staff by reducing targets and monitors of people monitoring other bean counters.
Allow NHS to source drugs at cheapest options not just from major pharma companies (who have many many ex MPs on their boards!)
Charge for ambulances that are called unnecessarily and black list repeat offenders.
Put those with "socially" gained medical conditions (fat, diabetes, smoking, drink, drugs, STDs) on patient contracts which if not followed would result in "patient" carrying costs.
mandatory prison sentence for criminal acts involving NHS staff/premises; i.e. and including so drunk end up at A&E.
Reduced Uni fees for 2nd year study and free fees for third year/qualification for nurses; similar for doctors/dentists/physios etc. Train military medics (signed up for 6 years) to nursing uni/degree standard so it offers real career while being paid and serving country.

just a few ideas while I am bored.

FYI,Type 2 diabetes is not necessarily a "socially" gained medical condition".It's often hereditary.My father had it, as did one of my younger brothers, (before I inherited it some 16 years ago).
 
FYI,Type 2 diabetes is not necessarily a "socially" gained medical condition".It's often hereditary.My father had it, as did one of my younger brothers, (before I inherited it some 16 years ago).

TUIB please read what is written and clearly understood, (hence the use of "socially" gained expression) now if that is the sole issue or consideration you have with my "basket" of ideas then thank you for the consensus.
I had hoped for a better discussion on my idea list.
 
Ideas? In no priority order.
Phase out agency staff with more use of overtime + better pay and bonuses for current staff. Easier said than done. Overtime is incredibly difficult to calculate in healthcare, and there are different needs in different areas for nursing so agency staff can fill the gaps better than just giving nurses extra work!
Cut admin staff by reducing targets and monitors of people monitoring other bean counters. Why would we want to reduce targets? Surely targets are what we need - less waiting time, less time spent in beds, etc etc. We need to monitor this for it to work!
Allow NHS to source drugs at cheapest options not just from major pharma companies (who have many many ex MPs on their boards!) Hmmm. depends on the drugs - this is a very Trumpian argument and yes the generic/original argument is one done to death. The NHS already sources a lot of drugs as cheap as they can, this will get more expensive after Brexit, natch.
Charge for ambulances that are called unnecessarily and black list repeat offenders. The Boy who cried wolf. You can't blacklist offenders. One time they will need it and you've got a death on your hands.
Put those with "socially" gained medical conditions (fat, diabetes, smoking, drink, drugs, STDs) on patient contracts which if not followed would result in "patient" carrying costs. Hmmm. The thin end of the wedge here. Who is anyone to judge whether something is socially gained.
mandatory prison sentence for criminal acts involving NHS staff/premises; i.e. and including so drunk end up at A&E. Prisons are already full. There should be more security.
Reduced Uni fees for 2nd year study and free fees for third year/qualification for nurses; similar for doctors/dentists/physios etc. No. This might lead to more people studying who may not complete the course.
Train military medics (signed up for 6 years) to nursing uni/degree standard so it offers real career while being paid and serving country. The only sensible idea of the lot.

just a few ideas while I am bored.

The last one is The only sensible idea of the lot.
 
TUIB please read what is written and clearly understood, (hence the use of "socially" gained expression) now if that is the sole issue or consideration you have with my "basket" of ideas then thank you for the consensus.
I had hoped for a better discussion on my idea list.

FWIW, I liked your first and third ideas.That''s about it.
 
It isn't going to be easy and none of the current parties and politicos have the energy or proper incentives to sort it as they would risk alienating too many voters so in my opinion a non party reform strategy which is not aligned with any political party is needed with a caveat that it will happen in the near future whatever party is in power; so it is not a vote winner/loser BUT is in the best interest of a sustainable, viable future NHS: with me so far?

Ideas? In no priority order.
Phase out agency staff with more use of overtime + better pay and bonuses for current staff.
Cut admin staff by reducing targets and monitors of people monitoring other bean counters.
Allow NHS to source drugs at cheapest options not just from major pharma companies (who have many many ex MPs on their boards!)
Charge for ambulances that are called unnecessarily and black list repeat offenders.
Put those with "socially" gained medical conditions (fat, diabetes, smoking, drink, drugs, STDs) on patient contracts which if not followed would result in "patient" carrying costs.
mandatory prison sentence for criminal acts involving NHS staff/premises; i.e. and including so drunk end up at A&E.
Reduced Uni fees for 2nd year study and free fees for third year/qualification for nurses; similar for doctors/dentists/physios etc. Train military medics (signed up for 6 years) to nursing uni/degree standard so it offers real career while being paid and serving country.

just a few ideas while I am bored.

I like everything in there. The only things I would add/ change are
Student nurse - should pay zero uni fees. Today they pay full fees AND they are working several days a week within the NHS within weeks of starting uni- for no pay- how can that be fair?

Re your points on “socially” gained issues. I totally agree. You can fix the health service in one stroke- don’t treat overweight people who could avoid being overweight. So the real focus should be- how do stop people being overweight, This is far more important than anything else- but no one has got the bottle to say it in these terms, yet all of the data proves it-
you only have to look at the NHS budget for diabetes, and the split between what could be cured with diet and exercise.

The focus is in the wrong place at present.

people won’t change as they feel entitled to it and it’s “free” in their eyes
 
I like everything in there. The only things I would add/ change are
Student nurse - should pay zero uni fees. Today they pay full fees AND they are working several days a week within the NHS within weeks of starting uni- for no pay- how can that be fair?

Re your points on “socially” gained issues. I totally agree. You can fix the health service in one stroke- don’t treat overweight people who could avoid being overweight. So the real focus should be- how do stop people being overweight, This is far more important than anything else- but no one has got the bottle to say it in these terms, yet all of the data proves it-
you only have to look at the NHS budget for diabetes, and the split between what could be cured with diet and exercise.


The focus is in the wrong place at present.

people won’t change as they feel entitled to it and it’s “free” in their eyes

Whilst I agree somewhat there is no way you can feasibly prove this beyond doubt and as such it is a complete non starter. Some people have psychological reasons behind their eating habits and weight and unfortunately people can fake it to get treatment. The complexity of any legislation to put this into force would be ridiculous, it just won't happen. Your last line is spot on and it is a problem, I just don't think there is a workable solution.
 
I like everything in there. The only things I would add/ change are
Student nurse - should pay zero uni fees. Today they pay full fees AND they are working several days a week within the NHS within weeks of starting uni- for no pay- how can that be fair?

Re your points on “socially” gained issues. I totally agree. You can fix the health service in one stroke- don’t treat overweight people who could avoid being overweight. So the real focus should be- how do stop people being overweight, This is far more important than anything else- but no one has got the bottle to say it in these terms, yet all of the data proves it-
you only have to look at the NHS budget for diabetes, and the split between what could be cured with diet and exercise.

The focus is in the wrong place at present.

people won’t change as they feel entitled to it and it’s “free” in their eyes

As a Type 2 diabetic I exercise regulary and watch my diet.I'm also grateful for the regular check ups (and blood tests) I have at my local health centre (due to see the Nurse tomorrow).

I do feel fully "entitled" to this treatment as I've contributed to the Spanish health service throughout my working life here.
 
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