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I simply cannot express how surprised I am that this closing of the gap has failed to materialise.
18th March 2016 was the first poll that put Labour ahead of the Tories with Corbyn as leader. Very soon after a leadership challenge was announced and Labour have trailed in the polls ever since. And in the week where the 2nd big budget U turn was announced (NIC rise dropped leaving £2billion black hole and now the grammar school pledge has been dropped) and a Tory MP takes over as editor of a newspaper - Tom Watson pops up to play the disunity card - poll gap created and maintained by the likes of Watson (and I voted for him as deputy - a position that is due a new election).
 
18th March 2016 was the first poll that put Labour ahead of the Tories with Corbyn as leader. Very soon after a leadership challenge was announced and Labour have trailed in the polls ever since. And in the week where the 2nd big budget U turn was announced (NIC rise dropped leaving £2billion black hole and now the grammar school pledge has been dropped) and a Tory MP takes over as editor of a newspaper - Tom Watson pops up to play the disunity card - poll gap created and maintained by the likes of Watson (and I voted for him as deputy - a position that is due a new election).

yeah, couldn't be old Dear Leader's fault could it?

We weren't level in the polls, we were level in one rogue poll. even Dumb and Dumber have never claimed we were ahead.

And the 'coup', clearly that's the only political thing anyone has paid any attention to this last year. I mean, it might be musn't it, what else could possibly explain our poor poll ratings?

And Watson was responding to a recording of a guy saying he wanted to take over the whole party and have our biggest financial backer affiliate to them instead.
But yes, Watson's fault for speaking out. As we know now, only some mandates matter
 
yeah, couldn't be old Dear Leader's fault could it?

We weren't level in the polls, we were level in one rogue poll. even Dumb and Dumber have never claimed we were ahead.

And the 'coup', clearly that's the only political thing anyone has paid any attention to this last year. I mean, it might be musn't it, what else could possibly explain our poor poll ratings?

And Watson was responding to a recording of a guy saying he wanted to take over the whole party and have our biggest financial backer affiliate to them instead.
But yes, Watson's fault for speaking out. As we know now, only some mandates matter
yes it is partially the leaders fault, and yes I was referring to one particular poll so we are agreed there.
But would you say Corbyn's performance has been worse over the last few months than the previous few months? Or May's particularly better? If not then the change in the polls from 'getting closer' to 'falling further behind' occurred after the 2nd leadership contest. A contest was always going to win as the majority of the membership back him.
The recording was of a public meeting - no secrecy - and Len McClusky has said no discussions have taken place so it's just Lansman being a gobshite. Of course Momentum would like their people influencing all major decisions in the same way that Progress do. That is the point of a pressure group - to pressure to have influence. If Tom Watson has an issue with that he should discuss it with the shadow cabinet before going to the BBC. I feel he is being wilfully destructive and I'm glad you brought up mandates as his is overdue for renewal - and I speak as someone who voted him into that position.
 
yes it is partially the leaders fault, and yes I was referring to one particular poll so we are agreed there.
But would you say Corbyn's performance has been worse over the last few months than the previous few months? Or May's particularly better? If not then the change in the polls from 'getting closer' to 'falling further behind' occurred after the 2nd leadership contest. A contest was always going to win as the majority of the membership back him.
The recording was of a public meeting - no secrecy - and Len McClusky has said no discussions have taken place so it's just Lansman being a gobshite. Of course Momentum would like their people influencing all major decisions in the same way that Progress do. That is the point of a pressure group - to pressure to have influence. If Tom Watson has an issue with that he should discuss it with the shadow cabinet before going to the BBC. I feel he is being wilfully destructive and I'm glad you brought up mandates as his is overdue for renewal - and I speak as someone who voted him into that position.

Yes. Yes I would. But even that isn't the point. The point is that the longer he goes on being ineffectual (even if he carries on that the same level of incompetence) the more people realise how crap he is and the more they desert the Labour party.
 
Yes. Yes I would. But even that isn't the point. The point is that the longer he goes on being ineffectual (even if he carries on that the same level of incompetence) the more people realise how crap he is and the more they desert the Labour party.
that was in reply to Bearded's post really but please expand -in what way was his performance in the first few months that in the last few months?
 
To be fair, Ed Miliband was unelectable. Corbyn is far, far worse - from Labour's point of view. From the point of view of his Tory pay masters it sounds great, but even they probably think the joke has gone too far now

If it weren't for Brexit, the Tories would be bonkers not to hold a GE this summer. They would completely stroll it, and I dare say pick up a fair few additional seats. I don't say "if it weren't for Brexit" in so much as this would affect the outcome, more that people are a little tired of all the voting at the moment so a case of bad timing. Brexit or not Brexit, the Tories would wipe the floor with Corbyn.

Labour's only route back into power is a move back to centre left politics.
 
To be fair, Ed Miliband was unelectable. Corbyn is far, far worse - from Labour's point of view. From the point of view of his Tory pay masters it sounds great, but even they probably think the joke has gone too far now

At the time of Ed Millibland's election as leader my dad was a Labour party member (not any more). When the result was announced I told him that Labour had just lost the next GE. As it turned out I was right. My dad's answer was also telling. He made the assumption that David Milliband would win, and therefore voted for someone else (can't remember who but Ed Balls springs to mind) with his 2nd choice being EM. Lo and behold, EM won on the 2nd votes.

I know one person doesn't make a particularly good sample population, but if he is anything to go by then you can see that Labour shot themselves in the foot.

I wish people would just vote for who or what they want rather than voting tactically and assuming their vote won't make a difference.

(I dare say a fair few people did that during the referendum too, but let's not go there on this thread.)
 
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I feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn. I have never been a labourite and never will be. Capitalism is the only way things work, not necessarily the current vulgar capitalism, and with tens of thousands of public employees that produce no income to the country, the private sector is essential in order to pay for the system we want. Labour like to spend what we don't have. Their idea of a fiscal policy is create more and more debt to please people and let the next incumbent government deal with the debt. However, Jeremy Corbyn, appears to be a genuine sort. His main problem is that he looks like a pot smoking Marxist that hangs around in poetry reading clubs. He may have many that listen to him, those that probably agree with him already, but he does not appear to be a sufficient enough debater/orator to change the minds of people with alternative views. Simply he is not a leader.

We need a strong opposition in the halls of Westminster and for that reason I hope Labour sort themselves out and soon. Socialism, like communism, is fine as a concept but cannot work. The best time Labour have had is when they have moved to the middle and been a diluted conservatism. For that reason I hope a new party will become the main opposition. In this capitalist world I doubt there is any alternative to the conservative model except maybe one that incorporates morals.
 
I feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn. I have never been a labourite and never will be. Capitalism is the only way things work, not necessarily the current vulgar capitalism, and with tens of thousands of public employees that produce no income to the country, the private sector is essential in order to pay for the system we want. Labour like to spend what we don't have. Their idea of a fiscal policy is create more and more debt to please people and let the next incumbent government deal with the debt. However, Jeremy Corbyn, appears to be a genuine sort. His main problem is that he looks like a pot smoking Marxist that hangs around in poetry reading clubs. He may have many that listen to him, those that probably agree with him already, but he does not appear to be a sufficient enough debater/orator to change the minds of people with alternative views. Simply he is not a leader.

We need a strong opposition in the halls of Westminster and for that reason I hope Labour sort themselves out and soon. Socialism, like communism, is fine as a concept but cannot work. The best time Labour have had is when they have moved to the middle and been a diluted conservatism. For that reason I hope a new party will become the main opposition. In this capitalist world I doubt there is any alternative to the conservative model except maybe one that incorporates morals.

Social democratic parties had quite a good run in Europe until the 2008 crash.Who knows a comeback might be on the way, starting with the German elections in September?
 
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I feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn. I have never been a labourite and never will be. Capitalism is the only way things work, not necessarily the current vulgar capitalism, and with tens of thousands of public employees that produce no income to the country, the private sector is essential in order to pay for the system we want. Labour like to spend what we don't have. Their idea of a fiscal policy is create more and more debt to please people and let the next incumbent government deal with the debt. However, Jeremy Corbyn, appears to be a genuine sort. His main problem is that he looks like a pot smoking Marxist that hangs around in poetry reading clubs. He may have many that listen to him, those that probably agree with him already, but he does not appear to be a sufficient enough debater/orator to change the minds of people with alternative views. Simply he is not a leader.

We need a strong opposition in the halls of Westminster and for that reason I hope Labour sort themselves out and soon. Socialism, like communism, is fine as a concept but cannot work. The best time Labour have had is when they have moved to the middle and been a diluted conservatism. For that reason I hope a new party will become the main opposition. In this capitalist world I doubt there is any alternative to the conservative model except maybe one that incorporates morals.

But therein lies the problem. I don't believe you can have both. A conservative and capitalistic economy works only when political and social morals come a distant second to hubris and greed (in my opinion)
 
:hilarious: Ooooo guess who just Googled 'conservative economy'

You knew full well what I meant you pedant, but don't let that stop you having a little dig eh :thumbsup:


"When I use a word,’
Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.".Lewis Carroll.Through the Looking Glass.
 
I feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn. I have never been a labourite and never will be. Capitalism is the only way things work, not necessarily the current vulgar capitalism, and with tens of thousands of public employees that produce no income to the country, the private sector is essential in order to pay for the system we want. Labour like to spend what we don't have. Their idea of a fiscal policy is create more and more debt to please people and let the next incumbent government deal with the debt. However, Jeremy Corbyn, appears to be a genuine sort. His main problem is that he looks like a pot smoking Marxist that hangs around in poetry reading clubs. He may have many that listen to him, those that probably agree with him already, but he does not appear to be a sufficient enough debater/orator to change the minds of people with alternative views. Simply he is not a leader.

We need a strong opposition in the halls of Westminster and for that reason I hope Labour sort themselves out and soon. Socialism, like communism, is fine as a concept but cannot work. The best time Labour have had is when they have moved to the middle and been a diluted conservatism. For that reason I hope a new party will become the main opposition. In this capitalist world I doubt there is any alternative to the conservative model except maybe one that incorporates morals.
I don't agree with everything you have written here but I respect the fact that you have stated what you think with no agenda or leading questions. Much of the political input on here is to reach a specific outcome that it is refreshingly for someone to just say what they think.
 
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