Jack Payne in League 1

[Bearded Shrimper]

i'm not sure we need him to bulk up but to get core strength so he's not knocked off the ball easily

 

[blues_r_best]

i'm not sure we need him to bulk up but to get core strength so he's not knocked off the ball easily

He'd better be doing Dragon Flags then.

 

[shrimpled]

To be fair to JP, he was very rarely 'knocked off the ball easily' in L2, which is widely acknowledged as being a more 'physical' league than L1. I think he would do well playing behind a quick striker able to stretch the space between the opposition defence and midfield and creating some space for him to work in. With Corr, opposition defences would squeeze up and there wasn't much in the way of 'wriggle room' for any of our midfield to work in.

Failing that, we play him as a tucked in left midfielder, creating space for Coker to work in wide left as well as keeping Payne involved in the play, much the same way to how we used Moussa.

 

[Norwichshrimper]

Payne is undoubtedly a talented player....the problem is what do you do with him? He is not a striker and he's not a midfielder, he has to be in the "luxury player" bracket.

Therefore it is going to be very hard for him to start games regularly for a team that play a solid formation (as we usually do). It is a dilemma, what do we do with him.

I'm not knocking the lad at all, as he is young and should improve. But he NEEDS to improve if he is going to command a regular starting place in his current role...failing that he needs to work on his game and develop into a standard midfielder or striker.

Some people have said he'll do better in League 1, and I don't disagree with that in general. But I think his problem is going to be getting games. We are going to be up against much better opposition and PB (assuming he's still here) is less likely to play a "luxury player"....Let's be honest 4-5-1 with Payne is no more defensively sound than 4-4-2 with two out and out strikers.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

If we compare his progress to Moussa (), then you can see some similarity.

Moussa's first real season in the first team was 2007/08 (05/06 made 1 sub appearances & 4 appearances in 06/07) when he made 20 appearances with most as a sub. The following season started well, 3 starts before getting sent off against Brighton and was sent on loan to League 2 Wycombe. He managed 38 appearances that season (9 for Wycombe) scoring twice (one against Col Ewe). The following season would be the one where he really kicked on, playing 46 games (only 2 as a sub and missing 3 games due to suspension) producing 5 goals and 3 assists. I firmly believe that had he stayed with us, he would have been a key player in League 1, let alone League 2.

In Payne's first season (13/14), he made 15 appearances and most as a sub. In the season just gone, he made 38 appearances as well having 5 times more game time than in the previous season. He was quite productive too, scoring 8 goals and 5 assists. Hopefully, he can follow the same path as Moussa and we will see him flourish in the next few seasons.

Moussa made his debut as a 16 year old in League One
Made 2 starts and 2 sub appearances in the Championship as a 17yo
6 starts and 12 sub appearances in League One as an 18yo plus 4 starts in the cup
25 starts and 1 sub appearances in League one and 9 in League Two as a 19 yo plus some cup games

Payne
0 starts and 11 sub appearances in League Two plus some cup games as a 19 yo
20 starts and 14 sub appearances in League Two plus some cup games as a 20yo

So he's basically a year and a division down on where Moussa was. The year may be down to the year he missed through injury. No shame in not being as good as the Moose though.

Personally I think his role and possibly his ceiling is as essentially a sort of supersub. There's value in this though, particularly if he's cheap.

 

[jaffa1]

Boring! - this 'lightweight' will cope fine with League One, the players rate him highly and they see him day in day out. As for not tracking/tackling back, remind me again how the ball ended up at Weston's feet at Wembley ?

 

[Rattus Norvegicus]

Boring! - this 'lightweight' will cope fine with League One, the players rate him highly and they see him day in day out. As for not tracking/tackling back, remind me again how the ball ended up at Weston's feet at Wembley ?

Whether you like it or not, every player has to do some defending. It is an important element of the game and it is valid to discuss this when talking about Payne's strengths and weaknesses.

Of course, if Payney sets up or scores 3 each game then this won't be much of an issue ..............

 

[maninasuitcase]

When I first saw Payne I didn't think he was good or strong enough, but he has proved me wrong. Now it is a question of how we fit him into the side in which formation.

Let's not forget he helped change the match when he came on at Bury, providing the link between the midfield and attack when Corr was rather isolated up front prior to the substitutions. We really didn't look like scoring up until him and Worrell came in.

And he has proved he can do the 90 minutes, scoring against York in the 78th minute, and he really did work his socks off that day. Let's not forget he stepped up to take a penalty and scored play-off final, so he has confidence.

I think what Payne has to learn is when to run with the ball and when to pass. Games where he is less effective tend to be when he can't go past his man and he loses the ball. In these situations he has to learn to pass.

Remember he was our equal second top scorer in the league last season will six goals along side Piggott and Worrall, so he must be doing something right!

 

[Rattus Norvegicus]

So here we are - October - Payne has played a very limited role to date. He did start in the game against Crawley and I understand he played well.

But that's 11 games gone - that's just under 1/4 of the season - so I wonder quite where Jack features given some of the comments above about this division being better for him. We played Crewe last week - a team that likes to move the ball around - and potentially a game where people where predicting Payne would be an asset but he didn't get off the bench.

And we now seem to be playing 4-4-2 regularly.

Any views?

 

[Angell Delight]

For me Payne doesn't fit into a 4-4-2. And we've been playing 4-4-2. So therein lies the problem for Jack.

 

[tottenham541]

I think the key with Payne is he and Brown getting together and working out what position they seem him actually contributing in. Is he a central midfielder? Is he a striker? Is he a winger? If he's a 'no.10' then I guess that is fine but it means the team needs to be built around him which I'm not sure he's ready for.

Yep just this, would like to see him get a run of games in he could fit in the team somewhere, every player needs a run of games to adapt and show what they can do.

 

[slapheadsteve]

I have always said Jack is a impact player, he is too lightweight for a full 90 minutes.
League 1 is too bigger step up for him at this stage. I would loan him out for a month to a Div 2 team.
Although would make sure he is back before the Xmas New Year period.

 

[Rattus Norvegicus]

I have always said Jack is a impact player, he is too lightweight for a full 90 minutes.
League 1 is too bigger step up for him at this stage. I would loan him out for a month to a Div 2 team.
Although would make sure he is back before the Xmas New Year period.

I hadn't even considered loaning him out so that's quite an idea but we have a lack of attacking options at the moment (especially with Hunt injured) so I would still prefer to have him on the bench.

 

[slapheadsteve]

I hadn't even considered loaning him out so that's quite an idea but we have a lack of attacking options at the moment (especially with Hunt injured) so I would still prefer to have him on the bench.

Jason Williams

 

[Ricky Otto]

So here we are - October - Payne has played a very limited role to date. He did start in the game against Crawley and I understand he played well.

But that's 11 games gone - that's just under 1/4 of the season - so I wonder quite where Jack features given some of the comments above about this division being better for him. We played Crewe last week - a team that likes to move the ball around - and potentially a game where people where predicting Payne would be an asset but he didn't get off the bench.

And we now seem to be playing 4-4-2 regularly.

Any views?

It's a tough one, I think he is a luxury player and that he has to be scoring or creating regularly as he doesn't offer much else. I know people say about his tracking back and tackling in the playoff final but IMO it's a rarity. He probably needs a run of games to settle and for us to see just what he is capible of in this league. Will he get them? Only if he forces himself into the fold with big performances off the bench or when played in JPT. It sounds like he did ok against Crawley but not enough to trouble those playing ahead of him. I think Phil is doing the right thing, he isn't forcing his way into the team and I don't think the risk of playing him for an extended run in the team is worth it based purely on his potential.

 

[Fairport]

Jack hasn't been given much of a chance so far this season. I would like to see him play more often as he gives the team a more attacking edge, he makes runs into the box and his finishing is generally very good. Most of the midfielders selected this season do not run at people in danger areas so much as Jack and their finishing is not so reliable.

 

[Pubey]

For all those who want Jack to get more minutes - who do you drop? Does Jack Payne improve our team in any way?

I'm not sure he does.

We have three decent strikers, and plenty of attacking midfielders who are more proven and more capable at this moment in time. Sadly for me Payne is a luxury player and hasn't done quite enough to force his way into the team. He's clearly talented, but it might be a Kightly situation...

 

[Rattus Norvegicus]

For all those who want Jack to get more minutes - who do you drop? Does Jack Payne improve our team in any way?

You have put your finger right on the nub of the issue. If Payne is in the starting XI, then who isn't?

 

[RobB11]

He just needs to get his head down and focus on improving all aspects of his game. He is still very young and I do see him having a future as a pro, but, maybe not with us. I would definitely look at loaning him out to a League 2 side as suggested for game time. One area he needs to improve as an AM is his shooting in my opinion, yes he chipped in with half a dozen or so last season, but, on many occasions he had great chances and his shooting was weak and in the middle of the goal.

 

[Pubey]

He just needs to get his head down and focus on improving all aspects of his game. He is still very young and I do see him having a future as a pro, but, maybe not with us. I would definitely look at loaning him out to a League 2 side as suggested for game time. One area he needs to improve as an AM is his shooting in my opinion, yes he chipped in with half a dozen or so last season, but, on many occasions he had great chances and his shooting was weak and in the middle of the goal.

The problem with loaning him out is that he's only going to get minutes when they're looking for a #10 player to come in and play between the midfield and striker(s). Payne isn't a winger and he isn't a striker, so just like he's a luxury for us, he might be a luxury for L2 teams.

It could be the case that he drops down into the conference and gets minutes as a striker/winger/midfielder. But then he may just be better off playing in the U21s here and being on the bench and involved in cup games. He'll definitely get minutes from the bench this season, and he has the ability to score goals and have an impact.