2017 Ashes

[AndyT]

First Tour Match starts overnight in Perth against Western Australia (2 day game)

Bring it on! :happy:

 

[AndyT]

Cooky out for 0 and Root for 9, but Stoneman 85 and Vince 82 seemed to have hit the ground running! :thumbsup:

 

[AndyT]

Tom Curran drafted into the squad for Steven Finn.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41836192

I managed to squeeze in 3 England players only!

 

[AndyT]

Four Englishmen, for me.

There's at least six players there that are an absolute given for anyone's side, but the other five are close calls.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Four Englishmen, for me.

There's at least six players there that are an absolute given for anyone's side, but the other five are close calls.

Botham, Bradman, Warne, Gillchrist, McGrath and Hobbs at a guess for your six
AB also for me and he played for gods own county!

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Four Englishmen, for me.

There's at least six players there that are an absolute given for anyone's side, but the other five are close calls.

Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Lillee, McGrath and Botham?

I'd also have Hammond, Barrington, Knott, Trueman and Spofforth (can't be bothered with a spinner when there are better bowlers available).

Tough to leave out Ponting who's the best Australian bat I've seen.

 

[AndyT]

Botham, Bradman, Warne, Gillchrist, McGrath and Hobbs at a guess for your six
AB also for me and he played for gods own county!

Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Lillee, McGrath and Botham?

I'd also have Hammond, Barrington, Knott, Trueman and Spofforth (can't be bothered with a spinner when there are better bowlers available).

Tough to leave out Ponting who's the best Australian bat I've seen.

The six I had were :-

Warne, Bradman, Hammond, Botham, Lillee, McGrath

I did include Hobbs and Hutton, but wasn't sure others would.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

The six I had were :-

Warne, Bradman, Hammond, Botham, Lillee, McGrath

I did include Hobbs and Hutton, but wasn't sure others would.

Interesting, I obviously haven't seen any of the three Hs and am going on reputation, but I'd have said Hobbs had a greater reputation than Hammond or Hutton. Not much between them though and all worthy of a place. If only we had them this winter!

From those I've seen I'd go

1. Gooch
2. Vaughan
3. Ponting
4. Pietersen
5. S. Waugh
6. Stewart if you want a bat first keeper or Foster if you want a gloves first keeper (in which case he can shift down to 8)
7. Flintoff
8. Botham
9. Harris
10. Johnson
11. McGrath

I'm a little nervous about Starc playing himself into that line-up this winter.

 

[AndyT]

Hammond's test record is almost unparalleled, so I went for him.

That said Hobbs and Hutton have extraordinary records, as well.

I like the side you picked of players you have seen and I'd pretty much agree, I think, though Warne would have to be in there.

Who is Harris, though? .. Can't place him.

Be interesting to just pick an Ashes England side, I think.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Interesting, I obviously haven't seen any of the three Hs and am going on reputation, but I'd have said Hobbs had a greater reputation than Hammond or Hutton. Not much between them though and all worthy of a place. If only we had them this winter!

From those I've seen I'd go

1. Gooch
2. Vaughan
3. Ponting
4. Pietersen
5. S. Waugh
6. Stewart if you want a bat first keeper or Foster if you want a gloves first keeper (in which case he can shift down to 8)
7. Flintoff
8. Botham
9. Harris
10. Johnson
11. McGrath

I'm a little nervous about Starc playing himself into that line-up this winter.

Gooch didn't have a great record against Oz and neither did Stewart come to think of it. You simply can't talk about the Ashes without including Shane Warne - he has done more for test cricket in the modern era than anyone or anything.

 

[Grayson]

I see the Australian selection debates are in full swing now. Matthew Wade/Peter Nevill, Hilton Cartwright etc. are as bad as our weaknesses. We have every chance.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Interesting, I obviously haven't seen any of the three Hs and am going on reputation, but I'd have said Hobbs had a greater reputation than Hammond or Hutton. Not much between them though and all worthy of a place. If only we had them this winter!

From those I've seen I'd go

1. Gooch
2. Vaughan
3. Ponting
4. Pietersen
5. S. Waugh
6. Stewart if you want a bat first keeper or Foster if you want a gloves first keeper (in which case he can shift down to 8)
7. Flintoff
8. Botham
9. Harris
10. Johnson
11. McGrath

I'm a little nervous about Starc playing himself into that line-up this winter.

"From those I've seen"

Did you always have your eyes closed when Warne was bowling? Must admit, I watched his stuff from behind the sofa once or twice...

 

[Ricky Otto]

I see the Australian selection debates are in full swing now. Matthew Wade/Peter Nevill, Hilton Cartwright etc. are as bad as our weaknesses. We have every chance.

The difference is our weak selections are most probably made even weaker by Australian conditions (I say probably as they are largely untested). I hope you are right but I really don't think we have much chance at all

 

[Uncle Leo]

There is a good podcast available on the BBC about our last tour to Oz. Given how badly it went I thought I should avoid this, but once I started listening I was hooked.

Link can be found here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41859201

 

[rigsby]

"From those I've seen"

Did you always have your eyes closed when Warne was bowling? Must admit, I watched his stuff from behind the sofa once or twice...

Not just Warne but Gilchrist would also be in any Ashes 11. Not just a match winner with the bat but excellent with the gloves as well.

I went to Edgbaston in 2001 and we were looking like we may fight back in the first test. Out come Gilchrist and hit 150 in what seemed like 5 minutes. Worse was to come as I was in Perth fro the 2006 test. Not only did we lose the Ashes as Gilchrist went for the fastest ever century in a test..... You couldn't even hide behind the sofa as he was hitting the ball out of the ground.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Not just Warne but Gilchrist would also be in any Ashes 11. Not just a match winner with the bat but excellent with the gloves as well.

I went to Edgbaston in 2001 and we were looking like we may fight back in the first test. Out come Gilchrist and hit 150 in what seemed like 5 minutes. Worse was to come as I was in Perth fro the 2006 test. Not only did we lose the Ashes as Gilchrist went for the fastest ever century in a test..... You couldn't even hide behind the sofa as he was hitting the ball out of the ground.

I was at that Edgbaston Test as well (day two) - didn't get much play due to one of the biggest rainstorms I have ever witnessed - but as we arrived at our seats Gough bowled Slater and we had some hope. Then the Waughs got stuck in and set the platform for Gilchrist...

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/18244/scorecard/63936/England-vs-Australia-1st-Test/

 

[rigsby]

I was at that Edgbaston Test as well (day two) - didn't get much play due to one of the biggest rainstorms I have ever witnessed - but as we arrived at our seats Gough bowled Slater and we had some hope. Then the Waughs got stuck in and set the platform for Gilchrist...

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/18244/scorecard/63936/England-vs-Australia-1st-Test/

We stayed in Birmingham and on the Friday night bumped into Mark Butcher and despite being his test debut, Usman Afzaal out on the town. Later that summer I read in the papers how the Auzzies like to target certain players. They didn't mention names but talked about some poser who turned up in a sports car and was on his mobile before he had even scored a run etc. Yes that would be the instantly forgettable 3 test wonder Afzaal.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Hammond's test record is almost unparalleled, so I went for him.

That said Hobbs and Hutton have extraordinary records, as well.

Hammond 7249 at 58.45
Hutton 6971 at 56.67
Hobbs 5410 at 56.94

And all three lost 5 years of their prime (Hammond's might not have lasted that long, but he was still playing for England after WWII) to war.

Hobbs was 32 and averaging 57.32 when WWI broke out. In his next 29 tests from 1920-1930 he averaged 62.13 (famously half his hundreds come in his 40s and he was the oldest man to score a test century).

Hutton was 23 when WWII broke out. He was averaging 67.25 (mainly thanks to scoring 364) from only 13 tests.

Hammond was 36 when WWII broke out. He was averaging 61.45.

The other Englishmen whose records are up there are Ken Barrington who scored 6806 at 58.67 and Herbert Sutcliffe's 4555 at 60.73. Hopefully Root will move closer to them this winter.

I like the side you picked of players you have seen and I'd pretty much agree, I think, though Warne would have to be in there.

Who is Harris, though? .. Can't place him.

Ryan Harris.

Only played 27 tests because of injury but 12 of them were Ashes tests. Amongst Australian bowlers over the last 50 years to have taken 100+ wickets only McGrath took his wickets cheaper (so statistically better than Warne, Lillee, Jeff Thomson, Craig McDermott, Bruce Reid, Jason Gillespie, Mitchells Starc and Johnson etc).

He's not a stat pick though, I just think him one of the toughest bowlers of the last 20 years. Fast, extra bounce and relentless accuracy constantly probing away whilst giving you nothing. The perfect foil to Mitchell Johnson. In those 12 Ashes tests I can't remember him bowling badly.

Gooch didn't have a great record against Oz and neither did Stewart come to think of it. You simply can't talk about the Ashes without including Shane Warne - he has done more for test cricket in the modern era than anyone or anything.

I was choosing English and Australian players rather than basing on Ashes performances. Gooch and Stewart both demonstrated their quality against the best of their day, the West Indians.

"From those I've seen"

Did you always have your eyes closed when Warne was bowling? Must admit, I watched his stuff from behind the sofa once or twice...

Ha, but seriously whilst Warne may have got in the heads of some England players, as a bowler it was McGrath that I feared in that Aussie line-up. When Warne replaced McGrath at the end of a spell I breathed a sigh of relief as the pressure lifted. England were able to beat Warne but not McGrath. 2005 is the most famous example but England only lost 5 times in 14 tests (with 4 wins and 5 draws making it a fairly even contest) against Warne but not McGrath as opposed to losing 3 out of 6 tests against McGrath not Warne, with England's solitary win being in a dead rubber once the Ashes had already been decided (Dean Headley at MCG).

Warne took his drug-assisted wickets at 25.41 - that's very good but McGrath took his wickets at 21.64. That's elite. Plus you also need to consider the calibre of those wickets. McGrath took disproportionately top order wickets whilst Warne took disproportionately low order wickets. This blog and some of the links touches upon it.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Ha, but seriously whilst Warne may have got in the heads of some England players, as a bowler it was McGrath that I feared in that Aussie line-up. When Warne replaced McGrath at the end of a spell I breathed a sigh of relief as the pressure lifted. England were able to beat Warne but not McGrath. 2005 is the most famous example but England only lost 5 times in 14 tests (with 4 wins and 5 draws making it a fairly even contest) against Warne but not McGrath as opposed to losing 3 out of 6 tests against McGrath not Warne, with England's solitary win being in a dead rubber once the Ashes had already been decided (Dean Headley at MCG).

Warne took his drug-assisted wickets at 25.41 - that's very good but McGrath took his wickets at 21.64. That's elite. Plus you also need to consider the calibre of those wickets. McGrath took disproportionately top order wickets whilst Warne took disproportionately low order wickets. This blog and some of the links touches upon it.

Oh McGrath was an absolute beast and ranks right alongside Curtly as the player I feared most when England were batting. Absolute *******.

But there is no way Warne can be left out of any composite England/Australia side. You mention 2005 - I'm still not sure how we managed to nick that win at Trent Bridge once he started rattling through our top order. Real edge-of-the seat stuff. Plus he could hold a bat pretty well.

I only ever felt safe if both of that pair were well away from the action. And even if he wasn't bowling, Warne would snaffle a few in the slips.

Not sure Ryan Harris would quite get in my XI but I like the shout. Could have been a bit different in 2015 if he had been available.