• Welcome to the ShrimperZone forums.
    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which only gives you limited access.

    Existing Users:.
    Please log-in using your existing username and password. If you have any problems, please see below.

    New Users:
    Join our free community now and gain access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and free. Click here to join.

    Fans from other clubs
    We welcome and appreciate supporters from other clubs who wish to engage in sensible discussion. Please feel free to join as above but understand that this is a moderated site and those who cannot play nicely will be quickly removed.

    Assistance Required
    For help with the registration process or accessing your account, please send a note using the Contact us link in the footer, please include your account name. We can then provide you with a new password and verification to get you on the site.

We should, however, be wary of those that have failed because of unrealistic aims.

We've already had one Icarus experience.

Hope to improve, yes, but only when the time is right and there is a contingency for failure.

A lot of these clubs had no contingency and just went 'all-in' for the holy grail.

True but when the time is right sums us up. Our rise is hardly meteoric. :smile:
 
Mods, it's a good topic, but as its not SUFC related, can you merge it with the already existing Non League: Leyton Orient thread in "General Football forum.

How is reflecting on our current 'plight' vs the O's not SUFC related. Long term Chairman prepared to back his Manager. Orient could probably put a decent vets team out with the managers they've had since Brown arrived
 
We might be laughing at Orient but the fact is 90% of Southend fans would have voted Ron out and their Italian owners in if we had been given half a chance.

Another example of 'careful what you wish for'....Dave Smith. We finished 7th in Div 3, which was on of our best finishes at the time. The next year we sold our best 2 players Cusack and Anton Otulakowski and slipped to about 15th?. The Smith out brigade got their wishes and off he went. Relegated the following season and finished 20th in Div 4 the next season. Followed by some of the most miserable years in our history.

No doubt the same of the old brigade on here who hate PB also wanted Smith out. They won't ever admit it but we nearly went under in the 80's because of them. That's why you should never listen to them this time round.
 
We might be laughing at Orient but the fact is 90% of Southend fans would have voted Ron out and their Italian owners in if we had been given half a chance.

Another example of 'careful what you wish for'....Dave Smith. We finished 7th in Div 3, which was on of our best finishes at the time. The next year we sold our best 2 players Cusack and Anton Otulakowski and slipped to about 15th?. The Smith out brigade got their wishes and off he went. Relegated the following season and finished 20th in Div 4 the next season. Followed by some of the most miserable years in our history.

No doubt the same of the old brigade on here who hate PB also wanted Smith out. They won't ever admit it but we nearly went under in the 80's because of them. That's why you should never listen to them this time round.

In your opinion
 
In your opinion

The point is, I'm not just defending PB. Some people would hate the manger whoever he was. Remember how 'awful' the football was under PS, when of course we were lucky to still be in the league.

Go back a bit further and the same people turned on Tilly and the 20 mangers before that. If its not the manger its the chairman, the players or life itself. Some people are never happy unless they are moaning and doing their best to spoil the vast majority of fans day out.
 
The point is, I'm not just defending PB. Some people would hate the manger whoever he was. Remember how 'awful' the football was under PS, when of course we were lucky to still be in the league.

Go back a bit further and the same people turned on Tilly and the 20 mangers before that. If its not the manger its the chairman, the players or life itself. Some people are never happy unless they are moaning and doing their best to spoil the vast majority of fans day out.

And some people have an opinion and refuse to accept the opinion of others. Contrary to what you say, Dave Smith was a favourite of mine, but he had far less support from the chairman than PB has had. Our sides then were routinely asset stripped. Now, as has been shown, the chairman is prepared to turn down offers and keep the squad as much together as possible. Most of the people you accuse of moaning, are just voicing their opinion, just as you do, but because it does not agree with yours then they must be idiots or worse. You support PB. Good for you. I don't and I don't need to be told my opinion is invalid or that of a fool or that I am just a moaner.
 
And some people have an opinion and refuse to accept the opinion of others. Contrary to what you say, Dave Smith was a favourite of mine, but he had far less support from the chairman than PB has had. Our sides then were routinely asset stripped. Now, as has been shown, the chairman is prepared to turn down offers and keep the squad as much together as possible. Most of the people you accuse of moaning, are just voicing their opinion, just as you do, but because it does not agree with yours then they must be idiots or worse. You support PB. Good for you. I don't and I don't need to be told my opinion is invalid or that of a fool or that I am just a moaner.

I'm glad you said it and not me. :winking:

As I said Dave Smith lost his 2 best players. As did PB when Bentley and Payne moved on. The difference is PB has spent nothing on his current squad yet we managed to go up 8 places last season.

Despite what you claim we had some cracking games of football last season and scored 70 goals. The only time that has been bettered in this division was the Title season under Tilson with 72 goals.......
 
The point is, I'm not just defending PB. Some people would hate the manger whoever he was. Remember how 'awful' the football was under PS, when of course we were lucky to still be in the league.

Go back a bit further and the same people turned on Tilly and the 20 mangers before that. If its not the manger its the chairman, the players or life itself. Some people are never happy unless they are moaning and doing their best to spoil the vast majority of fans day out.

It's true that you aren't going to keep everyone happy and there will always be some that will moan.

I had no problem with PS, although some say his style of play was awful, I didn't really think so, we scored plenty of goals, was quite attacking football and god we were so unlucky not to get promoted with the points we achieved THAT season.

You are clearly part of the Brown in camp and I am clearly part of the Brown out camp. There are so many arguments about what PB offers and doesn't offer I don't think either will agree.

Brown will keep us in this division but won't get us to the championship in my opinion. As long as we score first, we are usually ok but concede first and thee isn't really a Plan B.

I have also heard some things about PB, first hand from within the club and the way he operates I think is poor.
 
I'm glad you said it and not me. :winking:

As I said Dave Smith lost his 2 best players. As did PB when Bentley and Payne moved on. The difference is PB has spent nothing on his current squad yet we managed to go up 8 places last season.

Despite what you claim we had some cracking games of football last season and scored 70 goals. The only time that has been bettered in this division was the Title season under Tilson with 72 goals.......

He has bought in a lot of aged players on big wages in the hope of promotion
 
Is this for real? Just take a look back at twitter feeds when we lost to Burton and they thought they were Championship bound. the abuse we took was ridiculous. If for one minute you think any Os fans (and i know a few) would have any sympathy if the roles were reversed then you are very mistaken. You are where you are, thats football. however, be sympathetic towards that lot, not for me!:winking:

I know loads of O's fans (probably more now than I know Southend fans) fellow lower division supporters who continue to be loyal to their club rather than walk the short distance over to Stratford or jump on the 123 to White Hart Lane (yes I know their at Wembley) or even worse, sell their souls and watch the filth at the Emirates. Near enough everyone I've met I've got on with and got on well.
Trying to like people is really so much better than hating someone - try it, you might like it. Oh, and the pubs are so much better.
 
He has bought in a lot of aged players on big wages in the hope of promotion

The wages myth. He has a budget so if he wants less players he can have some on higher wages. Most people wanted a smaller squad and PB has done away with loans as this gives our own young players a chance and saves money....Which I'm sure all of us agree is the way forward.

Last season the PLAYERS (before anyone looks at a spread sheet and includes all staff) wage bill was about 13th in the division.

So you will be pleased to know that hardly any teams in English football who finish above us pay out less money for players wages than us. There are of course quite a few who paid out more but finished lower than us, including some in L2.

Despite this there are some that are claiming we should be in the top 2 places in L1...Not even the play-offs would be good enough for them.
.
 
The wages myth. He has a budget so if he wants less players he can have some on higher wages. Most people wanted a smaller squad and PB has done away with loans as this gives our own young players a chance and saves money....Which I'm sure all of us agree is the way forward.

Last season the PLAYERS (before anyone looks at a spread sheet and includes all staff) wage bill was about 13th in the division.

So you will be pleased to know that hardly any teams in English football who finish above us pay out less money for players wages than us. There are of course quite a few who paid out more but finished lower than us, including some in L2.

Despite this there are some that are claiming we should be in the top 2 places in L1...Not even the play-offs would be good enough for them.
.

This wouldn't surprise me at all and I think Brown is doing a good job, I don't think the anti brown lot are going to buy those figures without proof though. I have tried to find some evidence of playing budgets to prove to people that we aren't spending loads in the big scheme of things but I can't find any evidence. Where are you getting this info from? Do you have anything to back it up?
 
I think the vast majority of us are not too worried either way, regarding PB.

While he is our manager, he will get my full backing, so long as results and performances meet expectations.

If they don't, or he moves on elsewhere, the new fella will get my support, as well.

The issue, as I see it, is that the pro-PB side seem to have statistical support for their theory and the anti-PB side doesn't.

The question is, based on our size of club, financial standing and so on, are we where we would expect to be and I would say we are, personally. Possibly even better off.
 
I think the vast majority of us are not too worried either way, regarding PB.

While he is our manager, he will get my full backing, so long as results and performances meet expectations.

If they don't, or he moves on elsewhere, the new fella will get my support, as well.

The issue, as I see it, is that the pro-PB side seem to have statistical support for their theory and the anti-PB side doesn't
.

The question is, based on our size of club, financial standing and so on, are we where we would expect to be and I would say we are, personally. Possibly even better off.

The only statistic that the pro-PB brigade offer is that we are, season on season, higher in the league. No anti-PB people can or would disagree with that. The problem, as I see it and I know it is for me, my problem with Brown cannot be proven by statistics. There are many factors involved in success and most of them cannot be calculated or measured. I accept we are higher in the league, but it is my view, with the squads we have had, we could have done even more.

PB has been backed by RM and each January is backed further when things aren't quite going well enough.
RM has, where possible, turned away offers for some of the best players. To his cost.
We have generally shown to be totally inconsistent and the cups are not only a debacle but a slap to RM and the club for the support they have given the team.

It is my opinion, as an anti-PB 'idiot', that PB has huge limitations. He has brought success but struggled more than necessarily to do so and could have brought more. He has also failed to recoup some of the commitment through the cups and they can be the lifeline for clubs our size. I am not advocating this or that person gets his job, there are plenty of candidates that can put themselves forward, but I do believe that now we have a chairman that backs the manager, then more can be achieved than has been.
 
Some fair points 'rab' but there are other statistics, that are part of the PB tenure. Such as larger crowds, more goals year on year and so on.

PB has also wanted players we haven't been able to get. He hasn't always had the pick of the best.

I accept that RM has been supportive, but this isn't an easy division to automatically expect promotion from, because we've signed a few players that it would appear we have pushed the boat out for.

It's easy to forget that a number of clubs in our division have been in the Premier League in recent years and have a bigger attraction than Southend. They have larger gates (etc) and a bigger budget.

As I mentioned before, it's all about expectation. If our expectation is that a club our size should be in the top two, then PB is 9 places below this, but if our expectation is to compete at this level, then we are achieving this without a problem.

There's also a greater scheme going on. We have a stable set-up below 1st team level and some youngsters making their way on to the fringes of the 1st team. Some already performing.

As 'Rigsby' says, we have ditched the loan system and started to work with the players assembled over the last 3 years. As a work in progress, things are going to plan, IMHO.

I can understand how people might feel that it isn't, but I'd take where we are to a whole host of clubs we could have easily ended up being like, including those listed in the original few posts of this thread.
 
Last edited:
This thread didn't start off as another platform for and against Phil Brown. There are already plenty of threads on Chitchat where that debate can be had. If posts on Brown have relevance to the OP's post then fine, otherwise lets try and get back on topic for this thread. Thanks.
 
And some people have an opinion and refuse to accept the opinion of others. Contrary to what you say, Dave Smith was a favourite of mine, but he had far less support from the chairman than PB has had. Our sides then were routinely asset stripped.

Dave Smith was extremely poorly dealt with at the end. Awful.

However, prior to that, we bought players like Derek Spence and it also shouldn't be forgotten that he kept his job even after we got relegated. A decision that proved fruitful, as the 80-81 season bore witness to.

In our history, the best and most successful managers - Rowley, Smith, Webb, Tilly - all were given time (6,7 or 8 years) and it proved beneficial, so I think the chairmen have supported the right guys at our club, over the years.
 
This thread didn't start off as another platform for and against Phil Brown. There are already plenty of threads on Chitchat where that debate can be had. If posts on Brown have relevance to the OP's post then fine, otherwise lets try and get back on topic for this thread. Thanks.

Now, you know I'm not a fan of littering every thread with PB debates 'RHB' but ironically, this thread is actually about that, as the subject is being grateful for where we are, compared to our friends down the road.
 
You can say Phil Brown included in one of our best managers in top 10, after a promotion & 2 decent finish & now in mid table of League one & not far off the play off!
 
This wouldn't surprise me at all and I think Brown is doing a good job, I don't think the anti brown lot are going to buy those figures without proof though. I have tried to find some evidence of playing budgets to prove to people that we aren't spending loads in the big scheme of things but I can't find any evidence. Where are you getting this info from? Do you have anything to back it up?

My info comes from someone who knows exactly what our budget is. PB also confirmed it in an interview with an up and coming journo who is a shrimper.....As is his dad. :winking:

We have gone down this road before about wages. The Brown out boys refuse to accept the facts because it leaves them with no argument.

PS had a budget which was about 9th in L2. PB's was about 7th when we won in the Play off final. About £1.4m, with a maximum wage of £1500 per week. Which as you would know from your football connections doesn't buy you a decent forward. For example Danny Kedwell was on £2000 per week at Ebbsfleet in the Conference South last season. The biggest moan when we were in L2 was always "why don't we sign a striker".....The reason was wages, nothing else.

Up to date.... We have sold Bentley and Payne for decent money with more to come. The academy has a growing reputation. Obviously we lose our best prospects before they ever get to play for us, 6 of last seasons under 18's had already moved on before we lost to Orient in the Youth cup. Since Ricky Duncan arrived over 20 lads have gone on to play first team football at various clubs.

Now before you all scream about the big boys stealing our future, it actually helps us sign players if they and their parents see a pathway to success. Some have chose us over clubs with a grade 2 academy. We have more to come from Dru and Elvis and although Kyp signed when he was 18 its great to see a young lad progressing nicely with us. He was playing better every match and was our best player on the day up until he was injured at Doncaster. Lets hope he recovers soon.

When PB arrived he talked Ron into spending £150,000 on the training ground as he believed that was more important than anything else. Forget about what we might have earned in a cup run with 3rd round tie against Stoke reserves. Our best place to earn money is from the academy and that will happen long after PB has gone.

In the meantime lets enjoy where we are and enjoy the journey to wherever we might be heading. I'm off to Pompey on Saturday and part of the fun is the train ride down, not just the game itself.....Who cares about "why aren't we there yet" because the Championship whilst still at RH would be like turning up at a shoot out with a snubnosed pistol.
 
Back
Top