A bit of respect and perspective?

[canveyshrimper]

Are you not blurring the lines between the on-field and off-field situations? I thought this was a thread about the on-field position, which has nothing to do with protests, with Ron Martin and with HMRC.

If you want to talk about the off-field problems then that's fine. We are a business which has historically haemorraged cash and without a substantial cash injection were never likely to be able to pay our bills for as long as we were being owned by someone without the personal resources to pay our bills for us. Ron Martin has gone out and has kept us alive by the skin of our teeth for just long enough to get that cash injection in. Will it last forever? No, but hopefully he won't make the same mistakes next time and hopefully people's memories aren't so short next time we have a few poor results and the temptation is there to throw money at the team.

In terms of possibly leading this a little off topic, then maybe. However on and off field problems have to be intrinsically linked, players not being paid causes problems on the pitch and in the dressing room, and one of the first laws of business I learnt was always pay the taxman. I fully agree with your last sentence, but you and I know that's never going to happen. Football "supporters" by their very nature have goldfish memories, and before long if/when we have a bad run there'll be a few bright sparks demanding that money should be spent on players.

 

[onceknownasrab]

So Tilly and Brush did wonders. They are also consigned to the annals of Blues history. Move on. Sir Alf did well in '66 but that has nothing to do with football today. Sturrock is not yet assured of cult status in southend but at least we can look optimistically forward with his stewardship which is a far better view than we all had until recently. Let the past be a supply of fond memories and not sully the future with it. We all would have liked to see things done differently over ST and PB but that is not sturrocks fault.

 

[Pak Power]

Cautious optimism, I think. T+B will always have a place in our hearts, but we need to look forward now. I wonder when the first pay day cheque is for the players. If, as happened to T+B fails to materialise, then we may see PS real man management skills.

 

[Interpol Shrimper]

Absolutely pathetic.

It's called trying to be light-hearted & ironic or is that not allowed now either?

 

[Maidstone Shrimper]

It's called trying to be light-hearted & ironic or is that not allowed now either?

If that's light-hearted and ironic I'd hate to hear you when you're bitter about something.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

It's called trying to be light-hearted & ironic or is that not allowed now either?

Try a few smilies or something Glasgow :) sometimes (particularly with Irony!) it is difficult for the reader to see you're joking and not being serious...

 

[number11]

Well, apart from a few half-hearted "Martin Out" chants that were shouted down by some of the ProRon camp on Saturday, I'd say yes, he most certainly has.

Club shop will soon be stocking SUFC branded rose-tinted spectacles & blinkers...I even heard a rumour they will be doing inflatable Ron Martin backsides so his adoring public can have their own ones to kiss!

What have you seen to make you think Ron has an 'adoring public'?

I agree with the posts above that say you can admire what Sturrock have done without disrespecting what Tilly and Brush did. The substitution point and changing a game was something always levelled at T&B and so I think analysing that particular point is relevant and is not a case of disrepect to T&B only now they have gone.

Showing respect and appreciation for T&B doesn't have to manifest itself in not getting behind Sturrock and Widdrington and fans are not being disloyal to T&B but appreciating what the new guys have achieved. Just getting a squad together with a semblance of ability has been pretty impressive and most of the new guys have identifiable attributes that suggests Sturrock has a plan in place. Whether the encouraging signs continue as the winter sets in and a few payments are late remains to be seen, but getting behind Sturrock and the players should not be seen as kissing Martin's arse or disrespecting T&B.

 

[TTS]

Well, apart from a few half-hearted "Martin Out" chants that were shouted down by some of the ProRon camp on Saturday, I'd say yes, he most certainly has.

Club shop will soon be stocking SUFC branded rose-tinted spectacles & blinkers...I even heard a rumour they will be doing inflatable Ron Martin backsides so his adoring public can have their own ones to kiss!

I for one shouted it down because during the game you should SUPPORT THE PLAYERS !!

I'm not pro nor anti Ron, but I am pro southend and pro southend players and managers, be they new, sh8T whatever. If they wear the Blue shirt and give their all, they deserve support and not to listen to Chairman out chants during the game !!

 

[fbm]

Moreorless every point of view expressed in this thread is valid and it is quite possible to see how everyone feels completely different about the same set of events. On the Bristol City ratings thread I expressed the view that perhaps we shouldn't get carried away just yet... a mediocre draw against a poor Stockport (I imagine the sentiment would have been quite different if we had thrown away the lead as we did in last seasons opener as opposed to getting a last gasp equaliser, which always makes it feel like a win) and a gutsy, determined performance against a Championship side last night does not mean that we will avoid a 4-0 tonking at Aldershot on Saturday.

The team is new, they are getting to know each other and the building is at an early stage. It's quite easy to get knocked down and my view is that we will be playing decent football in the new year on a "more regular than not" basis. Up to then, we'll have the odd good performance (a la last night) and the odd nightmare, with mostly medicrity and a lot of dirty, gritty but unspectacular performances.

But the start made has been very, very encouraging and I think credit where credit is due. Could Tilly have assembled this team so quickly had he still been in charge? I very much doubt it. But that doesn't make his achievements any lesser and just because people are encouraged, surprised and elated with Sturrock (both of them) I don't think that means they don't hold Tilly in high esteem; perhaps his luck had just run out and things had run their course.

Anyway, Saturdays game will be a real proper test - away at a tough place to last years play off semi finalists. I suspect it will be a harder game than last night.

 

[applelover]

i'm going to play devils advocate here. I want to know why tilly and brush get 100% credit for the good times whereas martin gets 100% blame for everything that went wrong? I believe that the reality is a bit more complicated than that. If we get this stadium building going, and get promoted would the anti ron brigade be willing to put the past behind them and lick ron's arse?

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

There's no point living in the past. Tilson and Brush are gone, like Stan Collymore, Chris Powell, Dave Webb (well I think he's gone), Billy Best, Ron Pountney etc.

That list remain heroes, as do Tilly and Brush. I'll happily celebrate our heritage, but that doesn't stop me living in and enjoying the present. And last night was really enjoyable.

 

[Sean 2]

The way some people are hailing the new management as heroes when it's so early days with some comments belittling the previous management is astounding. What short memories some people have.



I think this is the bit that Elstree finds frustrating and so do i.
And the ones that have been posting this have always been anti-Tilson.
It is not the feeling of the masses i'm sure.
It's got nothing to do with Sturrock, it's to do with those anti-Tilsonites banging on about the virtues of anything good that didn't involve Tilson.
But as this thread shows, they're wrong. Many will appreciate T+B, more so as time goes by.
Good luck Paul Sturrock, with fans like these you're gonna need it. But we always knew there were more than a few fickle Southend fans. I grew up with the disgruntled masses when my dad took me in the West every week. Cuss and moan, never happy, always to the detriment of the team.

 

[Csboy]

i'm going to play devils advocate here. I want to know why tilly and brush get 100% credit for the good times whereas martin gets 100% blame for everything that went wrong? I believe that the reality is a bit more complicated than that. If we get this stadium building going, and get promoted would the anti ron brigade be willing to put the past behind them and lick ron's arse?

Fair point lets not forget it was Ron Martin that really pushed it to get Shaun Goater to sign, one of the greatest signings in the clubs history and without whom we would not have won the league.
I hate Ron martin with a passion for what he has done to Southend United over the last year but we should never forget his role in the greatest period in our history. Also the free coaches to Doncaster were a great gesture to the fans.

 

[jimmyshrimp]

I love Sturrock!

 

[ElstreeBlue]

i'm going to play devils advocate here. I want to know why tilly and brush get 100% credit for the good times whereas martin gets 100% blame for everything that went wrong? I believe that the reality is a bit more complicated than that. If we get this stadium building going, and get promoted would the anti ron brigade be willing to put the past behind them and lick ron's arse?

The management is responsible for the performance on the pitch if there is a level playing field. The people in control of the finances have a responsibility to set the environment to enable that to happen - and I'm not talking spending silly money on players, but instead on paying a proper wage that the club can afford every month without fail and not doing anything else that may be unhelpful to team performances. But setting the right backdrop simply enables the management to have the opportunity to do well if they're any good. It's the management who are then responsible for performances on the pitch if they have the right environment in which to operate. When we went up, presumably things were right in the background. Therefore, Ron Martin and the board must take some credit for setting the right environment for enabling the club to do well a few years ago. Whether we actually did well on the pitch or not is then down to the management and therefore the management should take most of the credit and responsibility for that.

However, the performance on the pitch stops being the responsibility of the management if the way the finances and other background events are run hinder them from doing their job. The buck for that stops with the people who are in charge of that.

 

[kentblues]

Tilson was fantastic for us. But nothings forever and we reached the point where a change was needed in my view. To be fair to RM (I know, I know.....) he stuck with him mainly through good but through not so good too. I remember when we were in the drop zone in the Championship he came out and said come what may Steve would be the manger next year?He was somrthing like the third longest serving manager in the leagues when he went.So never forget what he did and he will always be welcome. He will succeed somewhere else I am certain.Howerver, nows the time to look forward and support the team and build a new great 7 years.I sat in the East on Sat and had I guy behind moaning from the first whistle- he was rubbishing Corr from the word go and then Stuurock Jnr was getting the treatment whilst he was taking his top off to come on!!Can't we just enjoy the ride?

 

[Interpol Shrimper]

Try a few smilies or something Glasgow :) sometimes (particularly with Irony!) it is difficult for the reader to see you're joking and not being serious...

Ah, but I used to be the emoticon king, until somebody else who posted recently on this thread commented that I was probably too liberal (ha, that'll be right) in my use of them ;)

What's with the return in posting SS, you used to be prolific but have been noticable in your absence over the past couple of seasons. Change in circumstances? If so, all good for you, I hope !

 

[Interpol Shrimper]

I for one shouted it down because during the game you should SUPPORT THE PLAYERS !!

I'm not pro nor anti Ron, but I am pro southend and pro southend players and managers, be they new, sh8T whatever. If they wear the Blue shirt and give their all, they deserve support and not to listen to Chairman out chants during the game !!

I agree with that and contrary to what some might believe did not partake in any "Martin Out" chants on Saturday - although as I'm sure those who were sat near to me and know my usual level of support would agree that it was rather subdued and so I didn't really partake in any chanting (although I thought the "Can you name the Southend team?" one was typical of the comedy you usually find in Roots Hall.

However, I find it shocking that there was not one audible chant of support for Tilly pre or post match or any kind of organised anti-Ron movement (protest is probably now too stronger a word) again before or after the game. No matter where your mindset currently is at in terms of how you wish your support for SUFC to currently manifest itself I'm sure there are few fans of this club who don't believe RM needs to be reminded of how he has put us and OUR (not his) club through the mill these past few months. I don't expect an apology, but I would welcome some culpability and admission of guilt from our erstwhile chairman.

 

[Interpol Shrimper]

Fair point lets not forget it was Ron Martin that really pushed it to get Shaun Goater to sign.

Yeah, but surely that's now offset historically with the signings of Richie Foran and, some might argue, Dougie Freedman?

 

[hindle_666]

Well said elstree,T and B achieved more in there six years here,than our club has in the rest of its history.....LEGENDS