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Memory Lane All-Time Draft: The Final - poll now added

Who would win out of Team A and Team B?


  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .

Yorkshire Blue

Super Moderator⭐
Staff member
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
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Location
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Team A

Manager: Eddie Perry

.........................................Harry Threadgold
Micky Stead... Shane Westley... Jimmy Stirling... Chris Powell
....... Ryan Leonard..... Glenn Pennyfather... Peter Taylor
.................Billy Best..... David Crown.....Richard Cadette



Team B

Manager: Steve Thompson

...................................... Dan Bentley
Gary Poole.... Mark McNally.... Neil Townsend .... Andy Ford
Paul Byrne.... Nicky Bailey..... Ronnie Whelan..... Ricky Otto
..........................Stan Collymore.... Steve Phillips


Team A v Team B
Number of starts: 2419 v1053
Number of goals: 353 v 138
Stats taken from SUFC Database (or Soccerbase for more recent players).

Poll will be added in later after both managers have made their case. Feel free to chip in: if you don't know about a player ask; if there's someone you want to reminisce about go for it.

Where do you see this match being won and lost?
 
Ok, here goes... and is there anything we can do to try and get a bit more voting interest from the Zone in general? What started off as a brilliant idea and was lauded as one of the best threads ever is in danger of just petering out. There was only 13 votes in the second semi final which was an incredibly close game to call.

As is this one - the final, probably the best two teams there as well, containing pretty much all of everyone's favourite ever strikers.

Two incredibly attacking line ups and what a forward line Team A possesses. Crown, Cadette and Billy Best, my first and favourite Blues hero ever. Spud Taylor on one wing with Lenny and Glenn in the midfield. The main issue here again seems to be the formation and balance of the side.

Billy Best was an absolute poacher and played most effectively as part of an attacking 2 in a 4-4-2 formation with a big man (Gary Moore, Bill Garner) alongside. Neither Crown or Cadette are target men but they are absolute goal scorers. They will make their own chances.

Which renders the role of Peter Taylor almost useless really. He again would be restricted to making his own chances and whilst he went on to become an International and play in Division 1 with Spurs, his low centre of gravity enabled him to get the better of his man every time and get crosses in.

To whom?

Neil Townsend would clear every time. McNally would be able to patrol the back four with ease, closing down where necessary knowing damn well Crown wouldn't pass. We are talking an SPL and Championship quality defender against a decent striker at Div 3/4 level.

As in the semi final, Team A would be found wanting in midfield. Whelan would again orchestrate play, whilst Nicky Bailey was buzzing around, closing Lenny down and cutting off the passes of Pennyfather who, to be honest, was a decent midfielder but not jaw dropping. The strength of Team A definitely lies in the forward line. But there would be little supply to them, forcing Crowny and Cadette to drop deeper to get the ball. I think they would be restricted to long range efforts and Dan the Man in goal should be equal to that. Also, don't forget that Best, Crown and Cadette were all excellent at a leagues 2 level, lower than many of my side excelled at.

Team A's defence is it's achilles heel. Harry Threadgold was blind under floodlights, claiming he couldn't see the ball and was also - bizarrely - as deaf as a post. He seemed to win over the fans with sheer heart and effort, but that isn't going to cut the mustard when you have Collymore firing shots at you at 90 mph. To have a keeper in a 4-3-3 formation that doesn't have 2 of the main senses working is hindering to say the least, but whilst he may have been able to get away with it in a 2-3-5. I doubt that he would manage in a 4-3-3. Stead would be roasted by Otto. Powell would have his hands full with Paul Byrne and Byrne's main quality was the ability to get the ball in a step or two earlier than expected. Would SCP always stop the crosses? Probably not and then we have Byrne's shot to bear in mind, which was pretty accurate more often than not.

Whelan would orchestrate and Team B would have far, far, FAR too much for Westley and Stirling.

So how many of Team A would I want in my Team B side?

Powell for Ford, Taylor for Byrne and Best for Phillips. Possibly. But that's in my 4-4-2 formation which I must say is more balanced (IMHO). Otherwise Team B absolutely walks it personnel wise.

Cadette and Crown are the goal threats but Threadgold is the weakest link. You can't play too many individuals in one side and Team A have 3 of them, plus a practically handicapped keeper. Westley and Stirling couldn't hold a candle to Collymore. Phillips will put away anything. Dan Bentley's greatest attribute is his shot stopping, of which they may well be a few.


It's team B by some distance I think.
 
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Ok, here goes... and is there anything we can do to try and get a bit more voting interest from the Zone in general? What started off as a brilliant idea and was lauded as one of the best threads ever is in danger of just petering out. There was only 13 votes in the second semi final which was an incredibly close game to call.

I think it was just a victim of timing. The poll was put up over Christmas when people were not on the Zone. As everyone returns to work over the next few days I'd like to think it'll pick up and we'll get more people participating in the final.

Good write up though. Of all your fixtures, this one seems to be the one Stan would get most joy in. A light midfield would let him pick the ball up from deep and run at Shane Westley and pepper Harry Threadgold all match. It's hard not to see him scoring at least twice.
 
Some interesting thoughts there from @fbm and no doubt his is a good team, but it is beatable and Team A would do that.

First thing to remember: this is a Southend United all time draft and many of Team B’s team and their manager were only with Southend for 5 minutes.

Yes, team B has Stan Collymore, but he only scored a goal every other game while with Southend (15 goals in 30 games). So did all three of my strikers.

Yes, there’s Ronnie Whelan in midfield but he only played 34 games and scored 1 goal. My midfield are all long time servants with distinction at Southend - including a POTY three years running and an England International midfielder and manager. Not to mention the England International left back playing behind him.

All of the above would have too much for Byrne, Otto and Ford and play would be camped in Team B’s penalty area for 90 minutes.

To recap, Team A would dominate through their midfield and attack - with a left hand side of full internationals laying chance after chance on a plate and three of the very best strikers Southend have ever had banging them in. Harry Threadgold kept goal at Anfield and at Roots Hall against Liverpool and kept a clean sheet at home and was part of an amazing draw away.

Team A’s defence played 906 games for Southend in successful sides during each of the most successful periods in the clubs history.

So, Team A are stronger in defence, stronger in midfield and stronger in attack. They are also arguably as strong in goal, possibly with Team B shading that one but not by much.

This would be a comfortable win for Team A.

Team A

Welshman Eddie Perry took the helm in 1956 in our second season at Roots Hall. I picked him as manager as the options I knew better had gone and his win ratio of 43.15 is bettered only by David Webb and Barry Fry, plus Steve Thompson's cameo and Mick Gooding's one game one win spell in caretaker charge. Perry remained in charge until 1960.

Perry had some good players in Division Three (League One in new money) and in his three full seasons in charge Blues were in the top ten each year. This represented a period of consistently lofty heights for a club that never made it to the second tier until David Webb took over. Southend were consistent under Perry but didn't quite have that bit extra that was needed to seriously challenge for promotion to Division Two for the first time in the club's history.

Eddie Perry's record:

1956-57 D3 South P46 W18 D12 L16 Pts48 Pos 7th
At this time it was 2 points for a win. In today's terms we would have 66 points. During this season, in the FA cup Southend won away at Colchester before a heroic 2-1 home victory over Liverpool, before going out to Brimingham City.

1957-58 D3 South P46 W21 D12 L13 Pts54 Pos 7th
With 3 points for a win, for comparison, Southend's final tally would have been 75 points. In the last season of regionalisation in Division 3, Southend finished only 6 points behind eventual champions Brighton. They also recorded another heroic FA cup performance against Liverpool - drawing 1-1 away and losing the replay 2-3 at Roots Hall.

1958-59 D3 P46 W21 D8 L17 Pts50 Pos 8th
In the first season that Southend played national League football, they finished a very creditable 8th in the new Division 3. With 3 points for a win they would have achieved 71 points. Eddie Perry was somewhat unlucky to be replaced at the end of the season.

Players

Harry Threadgold was a fans' favourite in his time at Roots Hall, playing 343 games between 1953 and 1963. He kept goal throughout Eddie Percy's managerial reign including those amazing results against Liverpool.

Chris Powell at left back needs no introduction - he played 248 games 1990-1996, scoring 3 goals before being signed by Derby County for £750,000 and going on to play in the Premier League and for the full England international team 5 times.

Micky Stead played 298 games for Southend 1978-85 scoring 4 goals before ex-Blues player Dave Cusack signed him for Doncaster Rovers. During this time he was part of the Southend team which were Division Four Champions 1980-81.

Shane Westley, a wholehearted giant of a defender and one of the best centre backs we've had, scored 10 goals in 144 appearances 1985-89 before being signed by Wolves for £150,000. He would later return on loan for a further 5 appearances. Westley twice won promotion from Division 4 with Southend.

Jimmy Stirling was a Scottish centre back who signed for Blues from Birmingham City in 1950 and went on to play 218 games scoring 2 goals - including participating in the FA cup games against Liverpool under Eddie Perry.

Peter 'Spud' Taylor also needs no introduction. A hard working Rochford-born winger and SUFC youth product with pace and an excellent cross on him, Spud played 75 games for Southend 1971-73, scoring 12 goals, before Malcolm Allison signed him for Crystal Palace for £110,000. In his first season at Southend the club were promoted from Division 4 as runners up. He went on to sign for Tottenham for £400,000 and play 4 times for the England full international side, scoring 2 goals for England. He would also go on to manage England U21s and the full national side.

Ryan Leonard is another who will be familiar to all but the most recent fans. The 6ft 1 tough tackling central midfielder made 228 appearances for Southend 2010-18, scoring 20 goals. He is only the second player in Southend's history to win Player of the Year 3 times. He also won Players Player of the Year and Goal of the Season awards. He signed for Sheffield United in January 2018 for an undisclosed fee (thought to be around £750,000).

Glenn Pennyfather was another SUFC youth product who made 238 appearances 1981-87 largely as a defensive midfielder, scoring a creditable 36 goals. He was signed by Crystal Palace in 1987 before going on to play for Ipswich and Bristol City.

Billy Best was a firm fans favourite, who played many of his 226 games 1968-73 in the forward line, scoring 106 goals - an average of almost a goal every 2 games. However, he also played in midfield and ended his career for Northampton Town playing in defence. Billy was the type of character every team needs - a John White type who would play anywhere he was needed. A true legend and one of the all time SUFC greats. He also played in the 1971 team with Peter Taylor, who were promoted from Division 4 as runners up.

David Crown was one of my first Southend heroes. The pacy forward played 113 games 1987-90 scoring 61 goals, so an average of more than a goal every 2 games.

Richard Cadette was another pacy forward who played 90 games 1985-87 for Southend, scoring an excellent 49 goals - like David Crown an average of more than a goal every 2 games. He was signed by Sheffield United in 1987 for a fee, set by tribunal, of £90,000.

So, in short I have a ton of goals throughout my team. I have:

  • height in midfield and centre back
  • A manager, goalkeeper and central defender who were all part of the mid-1950s team that beat Liverpool at Roots Hall and drew at Anfield
  • Two forwards who both scored more than a goal every 2 games
  • Wingers who both scored goals and created many goals for others, Billy Best almost scored a goal every 2 games too
  • Central midfielders who also chipped in with goals
  • The best left hand side of any Southend team in history bar none with two full England internationals.
Team A are clearly (and, arguably, by far) the stronger team here, no question about it.
 
Yes, team B has Stan Collymore, but he only scored a goal every other game while with Southend (15 goals in 30 games). So did all three of my strikers.

The big difference being Stanley scored his goals against 2nd division defences whilst your three scored their goals mainly against 4th division defences.

Plus Stan largely did it by himself (with occasional support from Steve Brown!) whereas Best, Crown and Cadette had Garner/Moore and McDonough winning knockdowns for them.
 
The big difference being Stanley scored his goals against 2nd division defences whilst your three scored their goals mainly against 4th division defences.

Plus Stan largely did it by himself (with occasional support from Steve Brown!) whereas Best, Crown and Cadette had Garner/Moore and McDonough winning knockdowns for them.

All strikers play as part of a team, who create chances for them. Stan did not do it all on his own, he was capable of creating his own chances and converting them - but they were not the majority of his goals. It’s also a bit disingenuous to imply that Billy Best, David Crown and Richard Cadette were effectively goal line tap in merchants who were incapable of controlling a ball above knee height. It’s blatantly both absurd and incorrect.

What’s more, all three of my strikers did the bizzo for Southend year in and year out over many, many years rather than just a bit of one season. That’s why they are legends: they worked hard over a long time to bring success to Southend United, they did not achieve the bare minimum relying on their natural gifts for 5 minutes in a Shrimpers shirt as some others did.
 
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One could also argue the case that Team A's players played for Southend for so long because they weren't good enough to play at a higher level...

:Smile:

But many of my team were at the higher level and have a much stronger pedigree than Team A's,

Cadette for instance was blistering for Southend but that was the pinnacle of his career. He never achieved that goal ratio anywhere else, failing at Sheff Utd, and playing most of his games at Falkirk for goodness sake. Crowny was a greedy striker but only scored at DIv 3 or 4 level (mostly at Div 4). Best was my all time favourite as well but has no striker partner. Too many of Team A's players are fans favourites as opposed to great players.

No-one can doubt the pedigree of some of my team.

Whelan for instance was at the end of his career but was still head and shoulders above everyone else at the highest level we have played at, making him probably the best midfielder we have ever had. He didn't need to score goals as he set them up for everyone else. We all know about Stan. Dan Bentley is still on the way up and everyone else except Neil Townsend, Andy Ford and Steve Phillips are Division 2 players, not Division 3 and 4!

Team A does not have the strengths in the areas where my team has weaknesses, and their weaknesses will be totally exploited by my teams strengths. The term "fans favourite" appears too many times in the write ups by @Spaceman Spiff and there comes a time when you have to have the quality to match the endeavour... and preferably you don't want to have a handicapped keeper! He is the weakest link by a long chalk.

I repeat - there are only 3 players in Team A I would want in my team.

Team A have little to no chance I'm afraid.
 
Surely we are judging on performance while here, so the fact it may have been in Div 4 rather than Div 2 is largely irrelevant?

Still undecided on this one, need some more convincing - I am edging a little more to one than the other, but I won't say which at this stage.
 
Surely we are judging on performance while here, so the fact it may have been in Div 4 rather than Div 2 is largely irrelevant?

Still undecided on this one, need some more convincing - I am edging a little more to one than the other, but I won't say which at this stage.


It can't be completely irrelevant though, surely? Ability goes a long way to deciding whether someone is a fans favourite and surely if someone performs brilliantly at a higher level, then that goes some considerable way to deciding if they are a better player or not.

For instance, I have said in this thread and others preceding that Billy Best is my favourite ever Blues player. But if the question is "Who is the best Blues striker?" then I think most fans will go

1) Stan
2) Freddy

and the battle of opinions would really start after that.

Plus this was about building a team and consequently the blend of players and formation is crucial. Ability is usually aligned to performance while here (not always of course - I give you Neville Southall) and so the level at which the player performed at I would say is actually quite important as it also shows the strength of opposition that needed to be overcome in order to become that fans favourite.

ALL pro players have ability and on the training ground, anyone will look brilliant. It's only when they are pitted against an opponent that they show their true worth. Therefore the level that player performs at is extremely relevant because their opponent is tougher.
 
One could also argue the case that Team A's players played for Southend for so long because they weren't good enough to play at a higher level...

No, Team A are just from well before the Bosman era when transfers were less frequent and a solid wage and security were more highly prized. Bit odd to say that they played so well for so long for us because they weren’t good enough to do better! This is a Southend United all time draft! What individuals do for Southend is the most important thing!

But many of my team were at the higher level and have a much stronger pedigree than Team A's,

Cadette for instance was blistering for Southend but that was the pinnacle of his career. He never achieved that goal ratio anywhere else, failing at Sheff Utd, and playing most of his games at Falkirk for goodness sake. Crowny was a greedy striker but only scored at DIv 3 or 4 level (mostly at Div 4). Best was my all time favourite as well but has no striker partner. Too many of Team A's players are fans favourites as opposed to great players.

Firstly, not actually true - Powell and Taylor went on to as good of not better success than Collymore. But aside from that, I’ll say again it’s what individuals did at Southend United which counts relatively more in a Southend draft! That is why teams are marked down for being loanees, being here for 5 minutes etc.

No-one can doubt the pedigree of some of my team.

Whelan for instance was at the end of his career but was still head and shoulders above everyone else at the highest level we have played at, making him probably the best midfielder we have ever had. He didn't need to score goals as he set them up for everyone else. We all know about Stan. Dan Bentley is still on the way up and everyone else except Neil Townsend, Andy Ford and Steve Phillips are Division 2 players, not Division 3 and 4!

Team A does not have the strengths in the areas where my team has weaknesses, and their weaknesses will be totally exploited by my teams strengths. The term "fans favourite" appears too many times in the write ups by @Spaceman Spiff and there comes a time when you have to have the quality to match the endeavour... and preferably you don't want to have a handicapped keeper! He is the weakest link by a long chalk.

I repeat - there are only 3 players in Team A I would want in my team.

Team A have little to no chance I'm afraid.

Cobblers, the lot of it! Whelan didn’t play with all of our players and was slow, with knackered knees and past it when he played for us. He was also one of the worst Managers we’ve ever had.

My attack would destroy your defence and you wouldn’t have enough to cope.

Is fans favourite said too often? It so happens that my players are selected from the very best players FOR SOUTHEND in the club’s history - selected for length of service and achievement in a Shrimpers shirt. Yes, that does tend to make rather a lot of them fans favourites and players of the year. I’d suggest that’s a good thing?


Surely we are judging on performance while here, so the fact it may have been in Div 4 rather than Div 2 is largely irrelevant?

Still undecided on this one, need some more convincing - I am edging a little more to one than the other, but I won't say which at this stage.

Completely agree OBL. Team A played for Southend over many years evenly spread between the equivalents of League One and League Two - racking up far, far more appearances and promotions in a Southend shirt than Team B. Team B by the way were far from all Championship players while with Southend - most played lower than that with Southend.

Team A have 350-odd goals in a Southend shirt while Team B barely scrapes over 100. Team A would dominate all over the pitch.

Team A of Southend all-time Shrimpers heroes would win by a country mile
 
Cobblers, the lot of it! Whelan didn’t play with all of our players and was slow, with knackered knees and past it when he played for us. He was also one of the worst Managers we’ve ever had.

But I didn't select him as a manager. And despite being at the end of his career, he was still the best player on view in our matches. Bit of a straw clutch there mate.

My attack would destroy your defence and you wouldn’t have enough to cope.

Your attack would barely get the ball.

Is fans favourite said too often? It so happens that my players are selected from the very best players FOR SOUTHEND in the club’s history - selected for length of service and achievement in a Shrimpers shirt. Yes, that does tend to make rather a lot of them fans favourites and players of the year. I’d suggest that’s a good thing?

My point is that fans favourites aren't always the best players. But yes, it's a good thing. So is having Stan Collymore and Ricky Otto!

Team B by the way were far from all Championship players while with Southend - most played lower than that with Southend.

You can't count. Poole, McNally, Otto (still smarting over him methinks), Byrne, Whelan and Collymore is 6. That makes most of my team Championship players. Even the manager managed at CCC level!

Team A have 350-odd goals in a Southend shirt while Team B barely scrapes over 100. Team A would dominate all over the pitch.

Really? Dominate where? Stead would dominate Otto? Don't think so. Can't see Stan being dominated by anyone. Your midfield is outnumbered and your strikers just would be completely outmuscled.

Team A of Southend all-time Shrimpers heroes would win by a country mile
 
So is what people go on to do relevant or not? You can't have it both ways!

I still contend that it is what people do for Southend that matters most. I saw all of Whelan's games and yes, he could pick out a pass, but he couldn't run and his efforts in management relegate him to being more harm than good at Southend.

Overall, Team A are the true Southend legends - who were legendary in Southend shirts - while Team B is a motley crew of bit part wallies who are no more than a footnote in Southend's history... :Cool::Fishing:

Team A all the way. Team B not for me.
 
So is what people go on to do relevant or not? You can't have it both ways!

Different position though.

I still contend that it is what people do for Southend that matters most. I saw all of Whelan's games and yes, he could pick out a pass, but he couldn't run and his efforts in management relegate him to being more harm than good at Southend.

Overall, Team A are the true Southend legends - who were legendary in Southend shirts - while Team B is a motley crew of bit part wallies who are no more than a footnote in Southend's history... :Cool::Fishing:

Team A all the way. Team B not for me.


Voters... You heard it here first.

People like Stan Collymore, Dan Bentley, Ronnie Whelan, Ricky Otto, Steve Phillips, Neil Townsend and Andy Ford are no more than "bit part wallies" who are just a footnote in our history.

@Spaceman Spiff ... have you been taking lessons from Kevin Keegan perchance?

i-will-love-it-if-we-beat-them.jpg

:Fishing::Moon:
 
Surely we are judging on performance while here, so the fact it may have been in Div 4 rather than Div 2 is largely irrelevant?

Still undecided on this one, need some more convincing - I am edging a little more to one than the other, but I won't say which at this stage.

Not at all, from the competition rules:

When voting and determining which side was best we can take into account things like the number of appearances they made for us, the goals they scored in a Southend shirt, the honours they won, the level they played at and the transfer fees they went for.
 
Both sides have some poor players and good players. But Team A demolishes Team B - its midfield alone is a class above most midfields. I didn't really rate Inchy, but Stan the Man is the pinnacle of Southend United...
 
Both sides have some poor players and good players. But Team A demolishes Team B - its midfield alone is a class above most midfields. I didn't really rate Inchy, but Stan the Man is the pinnacle of Southend United...

Don't you mean Team B demolishes Team A if you are referring to midfield supremacy and Stan?
 
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