Am I missing something here?

[sufcintheprem]

If we don't get a new stadium, for the football club, fine, we'll continue to play at Roots Hall. The fans don't care because they were happy enough at RH before.

But what of Delancey's plans? Surely the only purpose for them to hold a stake in the football club is that they can develop the land under Roots Hall and make a massive profit like that.

Football's a fickle business. Even if we do pretty well, I can almost guarantee that without outstanding success (promotion or LDV run), we're going to struggle to break even.

I just can't understand how it's worth their while not moving the club to a cheaper and more economical location and I'm surprised, nay shocked that they are the party that seem to be holding the move back when all others would be reasonably happy at Roots Hall still.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

1. Delancey want Fossets Farm so that they can develop it.
2. Ron wants Fossets Farm so that he can develop it.
3. Ron and Delancey co-own Fossets Farm
4. Therein lies the problem.

Here endeth the lesson.

MtS

 

[Napster]

It's a problem though that's always been there. Why is Ron now suddenly panicking? Success has added to the value of the club.

I reckon a supporters Q&A with Ron and Delancey should be the next step forward- we need to know where we stand, and soon!

 

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (Napster @ Oct. 19 2005,12:04)]It's a problem though that's always been there. Why is Ron now suddenly panicking? Success has added to the value of the club.

I reckon a supporters Q&A with Ron and Delancey should be the next step forward- we need to know where we stand, and soon!

Good point but it seems unlikely that both Ron or Delancey will share the same forum.

 

[Napster]

Quote[/b] (canveyshrimper @ Oct. 19 2005,12:11)]

Quote[/b] (Napster @ Oct. 19 2005,12:04)]It's a problem though that's always been there. Why is Ron now suddenly panicking? Success has added to the value of the club.

I reckon a supporters Q&A with Ron and Delancey should be the next step forward- we need to know where we stand, and soon!

Good point but it seems unlikely that both Ron or Delancey will share the same forum.

unlikely but not impossible.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (Napster @ Oct. 19 2005,12:21)]

Quote[/b] (canveyshrimper @ Oct. 19 2005,12:11)]

Quote[/b] (Napster @ Oct. 19 2005,12:04)]It's a problem though that's always been there. Why is Ron now suddenly panicking? Success has added to the value of the club.

I reckon a supporters Q&A with Ron and Delancey should be the next step forward- we need to know where we stand, and soon!

Good point but it seems unlikely that both Ron or Delancey will share the same forum.

unlikely but not impossible.

Hope you are right.

 

[chadded]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Oct. 19 2005,08:59)]1. Delancey want Fossets Farm so that they can develop it.
2. Ron wants Fossets Farm so that he can develop it.
3. Ron and Delancey co-own Fossets Farm
4. Therein lies the problem.

Here endeth the lesson.

MtS

Both develop it and share the profits. 40% each and 20 to me for suggesting the idea.

 

[Firestorm]

Quote[/b] (chadded @ Oct. 19 2005,17:35)]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Oct. 19 2005,08:59)]1. Delancey want Fossets Farm so that they can develop it.
2. Ron wants Fossets Farm so that he can develop it.
3. Ron and Delancey co-own Fossets Farm
4. Therein lies the problem.

Here endeth the lesson.

MtS

Both develop it and share the profits. 40% each and 20 to me for suggesting the idea.

And then what happens with the Co owned RH, Delancey will want a return on their investment, so rent will be the order of the day.......400k pa anyone ??

 

[sufcintheprem]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Oct. 19 2005,09:59)]1. Delancey want Fossets Farm so that they can develop it.
2. Ron wants Fossets Farm so that he can develop it.
3. Ron and Delancey co-own Fossets Farm
4. Therein lies the problem.

Here endeth the lesson.

MtS

But sir!

Surely the land at Roots Hall is right next to the CBD and as a result much more valuable than Fossett's Farm which, in Southend terms, is out in the sticks?

Also, sir, if you extend your model then you have to assume that the situation has reached a stalemate and then you will reach the model that I was creating. In a stalemate, RM is happy enough because the club is becoming more profitable at RH but he wouldn't mind the stadium. Fans are happy enough cos they have a club. Delancey must surely be sitting there wondering why they have invested in something that will probably start losing money soon.

In my view, Ron has all the aces here and all Delancey can do is keep raising the stakes until RM folds. With the better hand, RM won't fold and Delancey, assuming they can't force Roots Hall to be knocked down without a replacement, will sit on a loss-making asset for the foreseeable future.

 

[Napster]

Ron doesn't hold the aces. He's struggling to meet Delancey's expectations.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ Oct. 19 2005,18:09)]But sir!

Surely the land at Roots Hall is right next to the CBD and as a result much more valuable than Fossett's Farm which, in Southend terms, is out in the sticks?

Alas, so far as I know on the urban development plan the Roots Hall site is earmarked as an area that can only be redeveloped for residential purposes only.

As a result, the value of the land on which Roots Hall sits is comparatively small compared to the potential retail development value (and thus, crucially, the potential income streams) of Fossetts Farm.

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ Oct. 19 2005,18:09)]Also, sir, if you extend your model then you have to assume that the situation has reached a stalemate and then you will reach the model that I was creating. In a stalemate, RM is happy enough because the club is becoming more profitable at RH but he wouldn't mind the stadium. Fans are happy enough cos they have a club. Delancey must surely be sitting there wondering why they have invested in something that will probably start losing money soon.

RM is not happy enough.  Fundamentally, he is (so far as I know) the minority partner in a company to which SUFC is a massive creditor - to the tune of several millions (we don't know how much exactly, but my guess is that the value of the debt alone must be in the region of £4m).

SUFC as an entity does not (alas) have a pot to p*ss in.  Right now, SUFC's chief financial assets are probably Freddy Eastwood & Mitch Cole... for whom, in a "fire sale" situation, you might make 600K tops.

The only thing that Delancey really wants is money.  Ideally, it wants the Fossetts Farm site... although I am somewhat unclear as to precisely how they get their hands on it for developmental purposes.  There are two major stumbling blocks for Delancey:

1. Will the council give the green light to a purely business-only redevelopment of the site?

2. Would Lansbury sell to Delancey (since, it should be noted, neither Ron nor Delancey owns the FF site)?

Then again, would Lansbury sell to Ron?  Who knows.  Alas, however, I agree with Naps.  Ron does not hold all the aces.  Fundamentally, SUFC has a huge debt - largely underwritten by Delancey alone, rather than SEL - no obvious way to pay that debt off (since it has no assets) and thus nothing to bargain with to allow the club to get its own way in relation to FF or Roots Hall.

Then again, other than the fact that it has an asset which is (at the moment) largely unrealisable - namely SUFC's debt - Delancey isn't in a great position... since it's highly unlikely that they could "go it alone" on FF, and since they don't want to develop FF in partnership with Ron.

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ Oct. 19 2005,18:09)]In my view, Ron has all the aces here and all Delancey can do is keep raising the stakes until RM folds. With the better hand, RM won't fold and Delancey, assuming they can't force Roots Hall to be knocked down without a replacement, will sit on a loss-making asset for the foreseeable future.

Basically, it's like a game of poker where both players have got absolutely crap hands - a pair of number cards each - and, whilst neither is willing to back down, neither is really sure how to take things forward.

I predict many more moons of stalemate on this one... but that's OK, since it gives the Trust time to become millionaires and to buy both Ron & Delancey out of Roots Hall, leaving the two of them to fight over FF in perpetuity...

 

[Ipswich Blue]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Oct. 20 2005,10:06)]RM is not happy enough.  Fundamentally, he is (so far as I know) the minority partner in a company to which SUFC is a massive creditor - to the tune of several millions (we don't know how much exactly, but my guess is that the value of the debt alone must be in the region of £4m).

Sorry to be picky - but you mean that SUFC is a Debtor of the Company as it owes and is not owed.

If SUFC owe the Company money the Company will show as a creditor in the SUFC books and SUFC will be shown as a debtor in the Company's books.

Pointless post I know  - but hey got to pass the time somehow

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

I always get the creditor the wrong way round...

 

[Ipswich Blue]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Oct. 20 2005,14:29)]

I always get the creditor the wrong way round...

Something tells me you're a Lawyer MtS  

 

[sufcintheprem]

Pretty thorough answer for a change Matt.

First, I think it would be pretty fair to say that Luke Guttridge is fast becoming as much of an asset as Cole, in my eyes, probably closer to the finished article. That's just opinion of course.

But I think you've not really mentioned anything regarding the club itself. You say Delancey are interested in money only and want Fossetts Farm. If they have the capability to simply develop the land, surely they would have done it if, as you say, RM is a minority shareholder. RM wouldn't be able to block the move surely and so they would make a planning application for the land. If they were to go there with RM as a minority shareholder, presumably that would line RM's pockets with enough to buy the club's side of it. Assuming they can't just develop the land as the whole saga would indicate, I believe that they also have to relocate the club before they can develop Roots Hall too. This leaves them with two pieces of land they can't develop unless, it seems, RM has his way.

Seems to me they are holding out for a higher offer from RM and I wouldn't be surprised if RM has offered a bit on the low side of what would be fair.

All this speculation can't be healthy for me though.

The problem is that the longer we go on not knowing, the more speculation will snowball.

 

[rabbloke]

Those with memory will know that I have long questioned the FF saga. I am a Roots Hall lover as it is the only home I have known for the Blues. I would however doubt that a club the size of ours could afford to stay at RH. Despite the few additions made in the past number of years, the stadium is a tired old lady. A slap of make-up only hides the cracks temporarily and a full make-over is far too expensive. The club, in my opinion, needs to have a purpose built stadium along with other non-football related interests that earn money daily and not once a fortnight. It is the dilemna between practicality and passion. A new stadium is practical but RH will always arouse passion within its supporters. I still maintain that one of the biggest culprits in this saga is Southend council. They should look to a number of other towns in this country to see how the councils actively support their football team and move the proverbial heaven and earth to relocate them to new and sensible stadiums. This issue rumbled on long before any of you ever heard of Delancey or RM. Owners come and go but the ever-present council is omnious only by its invisibility.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] ]
This is something that i have thought now for many years, particularly since the South Bank was developed.

Spot on, since this saga beagn years ago under Jobson, the council have offered bugger all in way of support to the club and it matters not what political colour the council has been over the years.

It seems to me that the council could not care less about the football club in particular, and the town in general.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ Oct. 20 2005,18:10)]You say Delancey are interested in money only and want Fossetts Farm.  If they have the capability to simply develop the land, surely they would have done it if, as you say, RM is a minority shareholder.

I'm not sure, but I think  the sticking point for Delancey there is that Lansbury won't sell to them, but they might sell to Ron. That's why Delancey can't move ahead without Ron.

Still, don't forget, SEL doesn't even bloomin' own FF... that's how pie in the sky it is at the moment...

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ Oct. 20 2005,18:10)]Assuming they can't just develop the land as the whole saga would indicate, I believe that they also have to relocate the club before they can develop Roots Hall too.  This leaves them with two pieces of land they can't develop unless, it seems, RM has his way.

As for redevloping Roots Hall, that brings us to our old friend, the restricitive covenant.  So far as I am aware (though HKB as a property lawyer and Terry as someone who has seen the covenant recently would be the people to ask), the covenant attaches to the land itself, and effectively states that Roots Hall is to be used for the benefit of the professional football club within the borough of Southend, namely Southend United Football Club.

Crucially, that is a different entity from SUFC Ltd, which is the company now owned by SEL (Martin Dawn + Delancey).

So, until Southend United Football Club have a new home - arguably one within the borough - the covenant prevents any redevelopment of the Roots Hall site.

If SUFC have a new home, or if SUFC go bust and are no longer in existence, the covenant becomes otiose - a court would then lift the covenant and Roots Hall could be redeveloped.

That's my basic understanding of the situation - although others know more about this than I do.

Matt

 

[Firestorm]

Thats how I understood it as well Matt

Accounts to 31/7/04

Balance Sheet

Creditors Falling due with 1 year 5,159,047
(None over 1 year)

As this was 4.9 M (Combined) in 2003 and I don't recall any money being borrowed from Delancey / SEL during 2004 I would say the debet to Delancey was "only" 4.5-5M as the back rent has been written off.

 

[dloman]

If SUFC have a new home, or if SUFC go bust and are no longer in existence, the covenant becomes otiose - a court would then lift the covenant and Roots Hall could be redeveloped.



I guess this is the scary part, if the club were to go bust then as matt rightly stated a court would lift the covenant on RH.

In regards to sufc , SEL and Delancy, oh and not forgetting Lansbury, it is a very strange and very much an ultimate stalemate position as all need each other in one shape or form, though i would guess SUFC is at the bottom of this pile.