any lawyers present?

[Ron Manager]

Quote[/b] (Barmy Army @ June 25 2005,13:50)]Okay the stadiums may be better, but I'd much rather be here in the "sanitised corporate-sponsored soulless stadium being watched by CCTV" being able to watch Southend, then be where you are watching some two-bobbed Manuel and Pablo that I feel nothing towards.

Of for $%&*s sake both of you...give it a rest will you?

Mike - Fair play to you for fulfilling your dream and making a new life for yourself and Fay in what really does sound like a beautiful part of the world. However maybe, just maybe, you could think twice before slagging off what you've left behind so often? This is only going to annoy some people and can come across as bit 'smug git-ish' to people who don't know you as well as many of us on here do.

Barmy Army - Just lighten up and ignore him, he's loving to wind you up and by you biting he'll do it even more.

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Ron Manager @ June 25 2005,14:57)]Of for $%&*s sake both of you...give it a rest will you?

Mike: ... maybe, you could think twice before slagging off what you've left behind so often?

Barmy Army - Just lighten up and ignore him, he's loving to wind you up and by you biting he'll do it even more.

Sorry, Andy. Obviously the humour doesn't translate well on these means. But it was a general observation on how the game in England is being gradually sanitised into something that it shouldn't be and how the game in Spain, Germany, even bloody Greece, is how football should be. Enjoyable.

Oh. And some people are just soooooo easy sometimes!!

WS

 

[W4 Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 25 2005,13:55)]

Quote[/b] (W4 Shrimper @ June 25 2005,14:48)]However, that doesn't quite address the issue of Real Madrid getting ants in their pants about Ladbrokes daring to price up first goalscorer betting for their games...

That's because Real Madrid are a corporate entity, not a football team and are therefore generally despised outside of the capital city. However the emergence of the "galacticos" as a way and means of selling more and more replica shirts in Asia has coincided with the Madrileño's complete inability to win anything so the rest of Spain laugh heartily into their cañas. I was at the Valencia v Real Madrid match last March and witnessed just how much Madrid are despised in our neck of the woods. You could have filled a small reservoir with the amount of sputum aimed their way when the boys in white ran onto the pitch. And it's much the same in Barcelona, Pamplona, Bilbao, La Coruna, San Sebastián ... well, I think you get the point ...

WS

That point, on the other hand, did. Cheers Mike.

¡Musho Beti!

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Indeed.

Now try this link here and this is what being at a football match should be all about! And as a Betis aficionado, you would appreciate the song! It's the Malaguista's slating Sevilla ...

WS

 

[BlueJ]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 25 2005,13:35)]

Quote[/b] (W4 Shrimper @ June 24 2005,10:06)]To be fair, I don't think we pay the Spanish football authorities anything, but I may be wrong.

That's 'cos Spanish football is "da best"!!

You can drink in the stands and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can stand in front of your seat all game, singing and shouting and cheering i.e. "enjoying yourself" and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can lob rolled up bits of tin foil that your ham bocadillo was wrapped in at the opposition player taking a corner and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can squeeze 300 people into a 200 seater area of the ground, jump around the lunatics, waving flags and having a bloody good time at a football match and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can bring in a trumpet, snare drum, bass drum, or complete jazz quintet to accompany you when you sing and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can make paper aeroplanes out of the team sheet and lob 'em at the opposition players or (better yet) at the directors / VIP area and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can even have a good old punch-up in the ground, shake hands afterwards and commend each other for "standing your ground" and no-one bats an eyelid.

Now compare all that with the police state in England that turfs you out of grounds just because you dared to stand up and get "all passionate" about the game. I know where I'd prefer to be these days ...

WS

 

 

And the same with Rugby Union - but you never get full capacity attendances!

 

[Ron Manager]

Quote[/b] (Tilly's Prodical Son @ June 26 2005,10:47)]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 25 2005,13:35)]

Quote[/b] (W4 Shrimper @ June 24 2005,10:06)]To be fair, I don't think we pay the Spanish football authorities anything, but I may be wrong.

That's 'cos Spanish football is "da best"!!

You can drink in the stands and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can stand in front of your seat all game, singing and shouting and cheering i.e. "enjoying yourself" and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can lob rolled up bits of tin foil that your ham bocadillo was wrapped in at the opposition player taking a corner and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can squeeze 300 people into a 200 seater area of the ground, jump around the lunatics, waving flags and having a bloody good time at a football match and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can bring in a trumpet, snare drum, bass drum, or complete jazz quintet to accompany you when you sing and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can make paper aeroplanes out of the team sheet and lob 'em at the opposition players or (better yet) at the directors / VIP area and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can even have a good old punch-up in the ground, shake hands afterwards and commend each other for "standing your ground" and no-one bats an eyelid.

Now compare all that with the police state in England that turfs you out of grounds just because you dared to stand up and get "all passionate" about the game. I know where I'd prefer to be these days ...

WS

 

 

And the same with Rugby Union - but you never get full capacity attendances!

That's because Rugby's a stupid game!

 

[BlueJ]

Quote[/b] (Ron Manager @ June 26 2005,10:50)]

Quote[/b] (Tilly's Prodical Son @ June 26 2005,10:47)]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 25 2005,13:35)]

Quote[/b] (W4 Shrimper @ June 24 2005,10:06)]To be fair, I don't think we pay the Spanish football authorities anything, but I may be wrong.

That's 'cos Spanish football is "da best"!!

You can drink in the stands and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can stand in front of your seat all game, singing and shouting and cheering i.e. "enjoying yourself" and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can lob rolled up bits of tin foil that your ham bocadillo was wrapped in at the opposition player taking a corner and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can squeeze 300 people into a 200 seater area of the ground, jump around the lunatics, waving flags and having a bloody good time at a football match and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can bring in a trumpet, snare drum, bass drum, or complete jazz quintet to accompany you when you sing and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can make paper aeroplanes out of the team sheet and lob 'em at the opposition players or (better yet) at the directors / VIP area and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can even have a good old punch-up in the ground, shake hands afterwards and commend each other for "standing your ground" and no-one bats an eyelid.

Now compare all that with the police state in England that turfs you out of grounds just because you dared to stand up and get "all passionate" about the game. I know where I'd prefer to be these days ...

WS

 

 

And the same with Rugby Union - but you never get full capacity attendances!

That's because Rugby's a stupid game!

A stupid game? Alright it might be a bit different from football but not stupid!

 

[The General]

I bet you're getting some stick this weekend, Andy ...

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (The General @ June 26 2005,17:35)]I bet you're getting some stick this weekend, Andy ...

Surely it would only be "stick" if he actually cared ....

WS

 

[Hong Kong Blue]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 25 2005,13:35)]

Quote[/b] (W4 Shrimper @ June 24 2005,10:06)]To be fair, I don't think we pay the Spanish football authorities anything, but I may be wrong.

That's 'cos Spanish football is "da best"!!

You can drink in the stands and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can stand in front of your seat all game, singing and shouting and cheering i.e. "enjoying yourself" and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can lob rolled up bits of tin foil that your ham bocadillo was wrapped in at the opposition player taking a corner and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can squeeze 300 people into a 200 seater area of the ground, jump around the lunatics, waving flags and having a bloody good time at a football match and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can bring in a trumpet, snare drum, bass drum, or complete jazz quintet to accompany you when you sing and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can make paper aeroplanes out of the team sheet and lob 'em at the opposition players or (better yet) at the directors / VIP area and no-one bats an eyelid.

You can even have a good old punch-up in the ground, shake hands afterwards and commend each other for "standing your ground" and no-one bats an eyelid.

Now compare all that with the police state in England that turfs you out of grounds just because you dared to stand up and get "all passionate" about the game. I know where I'd prefer to be these days ...

WS

 

 

You can also make monkey noises at black players and no-one bats an eyelid.....

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ June 27 2005,16:26)]You can also make monkey noises at black players and no-one bats an eyelid.....

Careful! The English should think carefully because they start pointing an accusing finger! The "I'd rather be a **** than a Turk" chant at the England v Turkey game a couple of years ago hardly gives them the right to start telling other countries to put their houses in order!!

WS

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 25 2005,13:35)]You can even have a good old punch-up in the ground, shake hands afterwards and commend each other for "standing your ground" and no-one bats an eyelid.

Well, it looks like we're getting something right back in Blighty. Those are days which are increasingly behind us in the UK, and my goodness we're the better for it.

It's an era for which I, for one, have no nostlagia. Looks like the public agrees too - which country has got the higher percentage of seats sold across its leagues...?

Nuff said, really.

Matt

P.S. A beer in the stands would be nice, though... it's one of the things I love about watching cricket...

 

[sufcintheprem]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 27 2005,15:44)]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ June 27 2005,16:26)]You can also make monkey noises at black players and no-one bats an eyelid.....

Careful! The English should think carefully because they start pointing an accusing finger! The "I'd rather be a **** than a Turk" chant at the England v Turkey game a couple of years ago hardly gives them the right to start telling other countries to put their houses in order!!

WS

Depends really. I know the implications aren't so clean but if someone said I'd rather be an American than a Canadian, for instance, no-one would bat an eyelid. Making a monkey chant, unless done in Chester apparently, is an unmistakable act of racism that transcends cultures, countries and languages.

The fact that the national coach lowered himself to a similar level and escaped being severely reprimanded by the Spanish FA implies the association's soft stanceon such matters and is indicative of a culture that still fails to recognise the problem of racism.

How is this relevant to the topic title and not moved to the Pub, I'm not quite sure. I think the first issue has certainly been addressed.

 

[W4 Shrimper]

Good point sufcintheprem....

 

[Ron Manager]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 26 2005,21:54)]

Quote[/b] (The General @ June 26 2005,17:35)]I bet you're getting some stick this weekend, Andy ...

Surely it would only be "stick" if he actually cared ....

WS

Very true Mike...if you haven't already done so Kev then read my thread about this topic elsewhere in the Pub.

To summarise, I got a pre-emptive strike in by making clear my indifference to such a non event and have touched a raw nerve with the adorable Kiwis.

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ June 27 2005,17:58)]Depends really.  I know the implications aren't so clean but if someone said I'd rather be an American than a Canadian, for instance, no-one would bat an eyelid.  Making a monkey chant, unless done in Chester apparently, is an unmistakable act of racism that transcends cultures, countries and languages.

The fact that the national coach lowered himself to a similar level and escaped being severely reprimanded by the Spanish FA implies the association's soft stance on such matters and is indicative of a culture that still fails to recognise the problem of racism.

Hang on! So chanting that you'd rather be a Pakistani than a Turk is perfectly fine despite the very clear indication being that those who were singing despise the Pakistani's - ooh! racism! - yet they despise the Turks even more - ooh! more racism! - and would even consider being one than the other?!

Yes, the Spanish FA should have thrown the book at Aragonés but I think one should think carefully when pointing accusing fingers. Stones and glass houses.

In turns of a cultural appreciation of the problem of racism, Spain is still some 30 years behind England but please don't tar every Spaniard with the same brush. Remember that the English have not been exactly innocent and there are still incidents in English football today, i.e. Chester.

Racism is not rampant in Spain, despite what the abysmal English tabloids like to think, the same papers who get terribly xenophobic whenever England play the likes of Argentina and Germany. If anything it was these same newspapers who stirred things up when Spain played England recently and the Spaniards were simply reacting against it. Yest, it was unnecessary but the English press didn't help.

The Spanish people are a happy-go-lucky people; that's why I moved here. They have no qualms about "blacking up" to play Moor invaders in local fiestas, something you would never get away with in England these days. Yet no-one sees it as something that needs to be addressed. I watched many football matches in Spain at many levels and have heard a monkey chant ONCE and the perpretator was roundly booed by the rest of the crowd. Yesterday I watched a match down in Torrevieja and a "Kick Racism Out of Football" banner was walked around the crowd - in Spanish and English - and was enthusiastically applauded by ALL nationalities in the crowd of some 7,000.

There's some work to do. But Spain is not a rampant racist country ...

WS

 

[Olisadavey]

i agree that the decline in racism in british footy can only be a good thing. it may not be a freedom of speech but if all people wil do with that freedom is give unneccessary insults then perhaps they shouldnt have the freedom.
and yes, beer would be good at football

 

[Olisadavey]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 27 2005,20:24)]

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ June 27 2005,17:58)]Depends really.  I know the implications aren't so clean but if someone said I'd rather be an American than a Canadian, for instance, no-one would bat an eyelid.  Making a monkey chant, unless done in Chester apparently, is an unmistakable act of racism that transcends cultures, countries and languages.

The fact that the national coach lowered himself to a similar level and escaped being severely reprimanded by the Spanish FA implies the association's soft stance on such matters and is indicative of a culture that still fails to recognise the problem of racism.

Hang on! So chanting that you'd rather be a Pakistani than a Turk is perfectly fine despite the very clear indication being that those who were singing despise the Pakistani's - ooh! racism! - yet they despise the Turks even more - ooh! more racism! - and would even consider being one than the other?!

Yes, the Spanish FA should have thrown the book at Aragonés but I think one should think carefully when pointing accusing fingers. Stones and glass houses.

In turns of a cultural appreciation of the problem of racism, Spain is still some 30 years behind England but please don't tar every Spaniard with the same brush. Remember that the English have not been exactly innocent and there are still incidents in English football today, i.e. Chester.

Racism is not rampant in Spain, despite what the abysmal English tabloids like to think, the same papers who get terribly xenophobic whenever England play the likes of Argentina and Germany. If anything it was these same newspapers who stirred things up when Spain played England recently and the Spaniards were simply reacting against it. Yest, it was unnecessary but the English press didn't help.

The Spanish people are a happy-go-lucky people; that's why I moved here. They have no qualms about "blacking up" to play Moor invaders in local fiestas, something you would never get away with in England these days. Yet no-one sees it as something that needs to be addressed. I watched many football matches in Spain at many levels and have heard a monkey chant ONCE and the perpretator was roundly booed by the rest of the crowd. Yesterday I watched a match down in Torrevieja and a "Kick Racism Out of Football" banner was walked around the crowd - in Spanish and English - and was enthusiastically applauded by ALL nationalities in the crowd of some 7,000.

There's some work to do. But Spain is not a rampant racist country ...

WS

whole heartedly agree. 100%. it is unfair to point the finger of blame at spain. it would be more ept to point it at those in question. the whole of spain should not be degraded as racist just because some people are. i know spaniards who are wonderful people, and i know someone who lived in spain for two years and she loved every minute, espcially the people. and finally, calling the whole of spain racist is racist as well in its own way.

 

[sufcintheprem]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 27 2005,20:24)]Hang on! So chanting that you'd rather be a Pakistani than a Turk is perfectly fine despite the very clear indication being that those who were singing despise the Pakistani's - ooh! racism! - yet they despise the Turks even more - ooh! more racism! - and would even consider being one than the other?!

I think you very much missed my point. As I said, there are implications but the sentence in itself is not necessarily racist, only the sentiment behind it can be.

For example, in our house last year, we got quite a lot of amusement by playing a game where you gave a person two alternatives and they had to choose one. Both alternatives were undesirable but clearly, at some level, one is going to be favourable to another. Cruder examples of this were "bum or be bummed" and "eat a microwaved **** or drink an ice-cold glass of urine". The point being, both of them may be very bad, very good or neutral but one of them will be preferable. Only England's past record of racism and the terms used impliy anything here. I knew a lad from Burnley (BNP stronghold, near enough) and his,frankly, disreputable dad and chatting to them about football was fascinating if you tookt the time to listen to their views. From what they were saying and from how they spoke about football, I honestly think that the ****/Turk chant was made up jokingly. Not condonable but not malicious.

In stark contrast, there is only one meaning of monkey chants and it's univresal understanding makes i that much more purposeful.

Also, am I not right in thinking that Torrevieja are the club that has a fan base that is in the large part English ex-pats? If this is the case, I'd wager that it was the English influence that brought such an action to come about. Whilst I applaud (perhaps a bad choice of word!) the sentiment, it does nothing to defend Spaniards other than in as much as they applauded the gesture applauded byt the majority.

I don't read English tabloids so i can't comment with regards to them.

I'm not saying that the whole of Spain is racist but 90 minutes of racism in the Enlgand game left me shocked. The biggest concern is that racism occurred at both of England's encounters with Turkey and Spain. In one, the chanting was isolated in the match, the culprits were dealt with and there was public outcry. In the other, the chanting persisted for the whole game, very little was done to punish the miscreants and the newspapers implied it was a diverting tactic after a poor football performance.

Frankly, people will always be racist in some way but to me, the football games and related fallout indicate a cultural problem of condoning racism where the country's leaders should be leading the fight to kick it out..

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ June 28 2005,15:00)]Also, am I not right in thinking that Torrevieja are the club that has a fan base that is in the large part English ex-pats?  If this is the case, I'd wager that it was the English influence that brought such an action to come about.  Whilst I applaud (perhaps a bad choice of word!) the sentiment, it does nothing to defend Spaniards other than in as much as they applauded the gesture applauded by the majority.

I'm not saying that the whole of Spain is racist but 90 minutes of racism in the England game left me shocked ... the chanting persisted for the whole game, very little was done to punish the miscreants and the newspapers implied it was a diverting tactic after a poor football performance.

Re: Torrevieja. Yes, the ex-pat community dragged the club away from the danger of folding and now form the majority of fans. The action stemmed from an incident in the previous weekend's game at Saguntino when, like Chester City, one drunken yob decided to racially abuse one of Torry's black players. In the return game last Sunday the club directors (for the most part Spanish) decided to make a point (not the ex-pat community) and the action was applauded across the board, even by the Saguntino travelling fans.

Again by stating that the action "does nothing to defend Spaniards" implies that you appear to be accusing ALL Spaniards of condoning racism. I was watching the Spain v England game with many Spaniards and, to the man (and woman), they were just as shocked about the level of abuse aimed at England's black players.

Still, I maintain that chanting that "I'd rather be a **** than a Turk" is just as bad, if not worse, as the implications is far, far clearer than you appear to believe ...

WS