any lawyers present?

[sufcintheprem]

I think you've only quoted half my sentence and overlooked the part where I suggest the Spaniards there may well have been led rather than leading the protests.

Good God, I haven't written this sort of length of posts since I first joined here. Must be the lack of university to occupy my mind!

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 27 2005,20:24)]

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ June 27 2005,17:58)]Depends really.  I know the implications aren't so clean but if someone said I'd rather be an American than a Canadian, for instance, no-one would bat an eyelid.  Making a monkey chant, unless done in Chester apparently, is an unmistakable act of racism that transcends cultures, countries and languages.

The fact that the national coach lowered himself to a similar level and escaped being severely reprimanded by the Spanish FA implies the association's soft stance on such matters and is indicative of a culture that still fails to recognise the problem of racism.

Hang on! So chanting that you'd rather be a Pakistani than a Turk is perfectly fine despite the very clear indication being that those who were singing despise the Pakistani's - ooh! racism! - yet they despise the Turks even more - ooh! more racism! - and would even consider being one than the other?!

Yes, the Spanish FA should have thrown the book at Aragonés but I think one should think carefully when pointing accusing fingers. Stones and glass houses.

In turns of a cultural appreciation of the problem of racism, Spain is still some 30 years behind England but please don't tar every Spaniard with the same brush. Remember that the English have not been exactly innocent and there are still incidents in English football today, i.e. Chester.

Racism is not rampant in Spain, despite what the abysmal English tabloids like to think, the same papers who get terribly xenophobic whenever England play the likes of Argentina and Germany. If anything it was these same newspapers who stirred things up when Spain played England recently and the Spaniards were simply reacting against it. Yest, it was unnecessary but the English press didn't help.

The Spanish people are a happy-go-lucky people; that's why I moved here. They have no qualms about "blacking up" to play Moor invaders in local fiestas, something you would never get away with in England these days. Yet no-one sees it as something that needs to be addressed. I watched many football matches in Spain at many levels and have heard a monkey chant ONCE and the perpretator was roundly booed by the rest of the crowd. Yesterday I watched a match down in Torrevieja and a "Kick Racism Out of Football" banner was walked around the crowd - in Spanish and English - and was enthusiastically applauded by ALL nationalities in the crowd of some 7,000.

There's some work to do. But Spain is not a rampant racist country ...

WS

I don't think anyone called Spain a rampant racist country.

What I think someone did was to effectively point out that the lack of "a police state" meant that racist monkey chanting was tolerated in Spain.

You were the one holding Spain up to be some utopian ideal. As for England, I mourn the lack of atmosphere but welcome the fact that racist chanting is considered unacceptable, that throwing lighters/ coins/ham and tomato bocadillos is frowned upon, that fighting in the ground is banned. I consider that progress.

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Guest @ June 29 2005,01:23)]What I think someone did was to effectively point out that the lack of "a police state" meant that racist monkey chanting was tolerated in Spain.

The Spaniards had to endure a "police state" for 40 years under the dictatorship of Franco ...

WS

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Guest @ June 29 2005,01:23)]You were the one holding Spain up to be some utopian ideal. As for England, I mourn the lack of atmosphere but welcome the fact that racist chanting is considered unacceptable, that throwing lighters/ coins/ham and tomato bocadillos is frowned upon, that fighting in the ground is banned. I consider that progress.

Slightly exaggerated, but I concede your point.

Yet I still much prefer to be here than in England. There is PASSION here for life, not just the game of football. The Spaniards had been told what to do (on pain of death) for some 40 years and they are now damn well enjoying themselves. They don't take kindly to others telling them what to do, especially England who are hardly "whiter than white" (excuse the pun), and react when the moronic English press decide to whip up more xenophobic crap against another country.

As the Spanish media reacted, English fans are the ones that sing "No Surrender to the IRA" at each game (conveniently overlooking that fact that the British government "surrendered" to the IRA some time ago!), the fans who taunt the Germans with songs about World Wars, the fans who sing racist songs about pakis and turks. Stones. Glasshouses. Smashed glass.

A Utopian ideal? Not quite. A better way to live? Definately!

WS

 

[Squirrel and G man]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 29 2005,08:34)]

Quote[/b] (Guest @ June 29 2005,01:23)]You were the one holding Spain up to be some utopian ideal. As for England, I mourn the lack of atmosphere but welcome the fact that racist chanting is considered unacceptable, that throwing lighters/ coins/ham and tomato bocadillos is frowned upon, that fighting in the ground is banned. I consider that progress.

Slightly exaggerated, but I concede your point.

Yet I still much prefer to be here than in England. There is PASSION here for life, not just the game of football. The Spaniards had been told what to do (on pain of death) for some 40 years and they are now damn well enjoying themselves. They don't take kindly to others telling them what to do, especially England who are hardly "whiter than white" (excuse the pun), and react when the moronic English press decide to whip up more xenophobic crap against another country.

As the Spanish media reacted, English fans are the ones that sing "No Surrender to the IRA" at each game (conveniently overlooking that fact that the British government "surrendered" to the IRA some time ago!), the fans who taunt the Germans with songs about World Wars, the fans who sing racist songs about pakis and turks. Stones. Glasshouses. Smashed glass.

A Utopian ideal? Not quite. A better way to live? Definately!

WS

Gibraltar: Spanish or British?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quote[/b] (Squirrel and G man @ June 29 2005,08:51)]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 29 2005,08:34)]

Quote[/b] (Guest @ June 29 2005,01:23)]You were the one holding Spain up to be some utopian ideal. As for England, I mourn the lack of atmosphere but welcome the fact that racist chanting is considered unacceptable, that throwing lighters/ coins/ham and tomato bocadillos is frowned upon, that fighting in the ground is banned. I consider that progress.

Slightly exaggerated, but I concede your point.

Yet I still much prefer to be here than in England. There is PASSION here for life, not just the game of football. The Spaniards had been told what to do (on pain of death) for some 40 years and they are now damn well enjoying themselves. They don't take kindly to others telling them what to do, especially England who are hardly "whiter than white" (excuse the pun), and react when the moronic English press decide to whip up more xenophobic crap against another country.

As the Spanish media reacted, English fans are the ones that sing "No Surrender to the IRA" at each game (conveniently overlooking that fact that the British government "surrendered" to the IRA some time ago!), the fans who taunt the Germans with songs about World Wars, the fans who sing racist songs about pakis and turks. Stones. Glasshouses. Smashed glass.

A Utopian ideal? Not quite. A better way to live? Definately!

WS

Gibraltar: Spanish or English?

 

[W4 Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Squirrel and G man @ June 29 2005,08:51)]Gibraltar: Spanish or English?

Neither - it's British! No Gibraltarian will call themselves English, but they will almost all class themselves as British.

Of the 17,000 or so Gibraltarians entitled to vote, about 70 would say they are Spanish....

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quote[/b] (W4 Shrimper @ June 29 2005,10:29)]

Quote[/b] (Squirrel and G man @ June 29 2005,08:51)]Gibraltar: Spanish or English?

Neither - it's British! No Gibraltarian will call themselves English, but they will almost all class themselves as British.

Of the 17,000 or so Gibraltarians entitled to vote, about 70 would say they are Spanish....

Pedant

It doesnt matter whether he said English or British in the context of this debate...

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Squirrel and G man @ June 29 2005,09:51)]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 29 2005,08:34)]

Quote[/b] (Guest @ June 29 2005,01:23)]You were the one holding Spain up to be some utopian ideal. As for England, I mourn the lack of atmosphere but welcome the fact that racist chanting is considered unacceptable, that throwing lighters/ coins/ham and tomato bocadillos is frowned upon, that fighting in the ground is banned. I consider that progress.

Slightly exaggerated, but I concede your point.

Yet I still much prefer to be here than in England. There is PASSION here for life, not just the game of football. The Spaniards had been told what to do (on pain of death) for some 40 years and they are now damn well enjoying themselves. They don't take kindly to others telling them what to do, especially England who are hardly "whiter than white" (excuse the pun), and react when the moronic English press decide to whip up more xenophobic crap against another country.

As the Spanish media reacted, English fans are the ones that sing "No Surrender to the IRA" at each game (conveniently overlooking that fact that the British government "surrendered" to the IRA some time ago!), the fans who taunt the Germans with songs about World Wars, the fans who sing racist songs about pakis and turks. Stones. Glasshouses. Smashed glass.

A Utopian ideal? Not quite. A better way to live? Definately!

WS

Gibraltar: Spanish or British?

Spanish by geographical location. British by tactical invasion.

WS

 

[Firestorm]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 29 2005,13:18)]

Spanish by geographical location. British by tactical invasion.

WS[/QUOTE]
Using the same phraseology how would you describe the Falklands ?

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (Firestorm @ June 29 2005,14:22)]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 29 2005,13:18)]

Spanish by geographical location. British by tactical invasion.

WS

Using the same phraseology how would you describe the Falklands ?[/QUOTE]
Ooh, no flies on you today, Mr. C...

 

[W4 Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Spaceman Spiff @ June 29 2005,11:21)]Neither - it's British! No Gibraltarian will call themselves English, but they will almost all class themselves as British.

Of the 17,000 or so Gibraltarians entitled to vote, about 70 would say they are Spanish....

Pedant  

It doesnt matter whether he said English or British in the context of this debate...[/QUOTE]
I'm right though!

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Firestorm @ June 29 2005,15:22)]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ June 29 2005,13:18)]

Spanish by geographical location. British by tactical invasion.

WS

Using the same phraseology how would you describe the Falklands ?[/QUOTE]
It sits on the very edge of the South American continental shelf and therefore several countries could have claim over it. But it's not attached physically to any country by dry land.

WS