Brexit negotiations thread

[yogi bear up the cagire]

It's worth pointing out that any second referendum on Europe is not in Labour's gift to provide.So the chances of it actually happening (with/without a remain option) are fairly remote.

Of course I understand that and as I indicated above, I believe a referendum could come because, in spite of all she has said, May would opt for a referendum (if forced to), in preference to a GE. The importance of Labour's present manoeuvers is that they will now be likely to support it. I understand it's still a long shot but the odds of a second referendum must have considerably shortened over the last week.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I can’t see either a GE or second referendum happening. May has been quite clear that we’re leaving on 29 March next year. Something will be agreed by then, mark my words. Whether everyone likes it is quite another matter but the EU will definitely want something agreed, as do we. EU negotiations only ever conclude with the theatrical all-nighter which allows all sides to claim a hard-fought ‘victory’.

 

[rigsby]

So a question for both Yes and No voters.

If there were an option for the EU to go back to just a common market/trading block. would you favour that, still want the current EU or still want out.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Common Market - yes, but they would have to ditch the Common Agricultural Policy (preferably - or at least hugely modernise it), complete the Common market in services including digital, amend free movement rules to avoid mass population movements of the kind we’ve seen such that the consent of the public in destination countries can be maintained and also pull their finger out in terms of negotiating trade arrangements with emerging economies.

Subject to all that and ditching the political project I’d be a fervent advocate. By the way, I see no reason why the European Council - on its own, I.e. just the leaders with a secretariat - could not also continue in order to present a united front where this could be agreed. Also if the peoples of some nations wish to amalgamate their nations fully into one larger state - crack on, if its a democratic choice then go for it - and do it properly if you’re going to do it at all. None of this half-assed sneaky creeping federalism by the back door that we’ve seen.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

So a question for both Yes and No voters.

If there were an option for the EU to go back to just a common market/trading block. would you favour that, still want the current EU or still want out.

Wasn't it us who instigated the transformation of a flagging Common Market into a single market with its four freedoms? Was that a mistake?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Wasn't it us who instigated the transformation of a flagging Common Market into a single market with its four freedoms? Was that a mistake?

Not quite - the original six states in the EEC nominally had all the ‘four freedoms’, but due to protectionisms and poor management it was dysfunctional.

Having joined the Common market, we needed to make it work and so, yes, the UK made strong representations to the Delors Commission about how to make the thing functional.

None of that had anything to do with the single state ‘project’ that has evolved since.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Common Market - yes, but they would have to ditch the Common Agricultural Policy (preferably - or at least hugely modernise it), complete the Common market in services including digital, amend free movement rules to avoid mass population movements of the kind we’ve seen such that the consent of the public in destination countries can be maintained and also pull their finger out in terms of negotiating trade arrangements with emerging economies.

Subject to all that and ditching the political project I’d be a fervent advocate. By the way, I see no reason why the European Council - on its own, I.e. just the leaders with a secretariat - could not also continue in order to present a united front where this could be agreed. Also if the peoples of some nations wish to amalgamate their nations fully into one larger state - crack on, if its a democratic choice then go for it - and do it properly if you’re going to do it at all. None of this half-assed sneaky creeping federalism by the back door that we’ve seen.

That, in a nutshell.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Jeremy Corbyn has stated that there will be no second referendum in a Labour manifesto should an early election be called.

Labour just as at odds with each other as the Tories obviously. Time for that centre-left party to emerge I believe.

 

[rigsby]

The only party that will emerge is a Brexit party, if the referendum is overturned. UKIP had 4m votes. A new party would easily grab 2m Tory and 2m Labour votes and sweep to power.

In some ways that would be better than Brexit and many people who voted out are no thinking that way...…..The majority of MP's would love to remain but both Tories, Labour and those that fund them, all know they could end their cosy two party state we have had for nearly 100 years.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Some many tatical manoeuvers going on here. Is Corbyn's mention today about supporting May 'if she gets a soft Brexit deal,' in response to the EU fear that Labour will vote down any deal? All she has to do is get a deal which can deliver “exactly the same benefits” as membership of the single market and the customs union, Good luck on that one Theresa! The Green MEP's have certainly got Corbyn and the Labour Party's position on Brexit sorted out......................

On Tuesday Barnier, gave a downbeat analysis of the state of the negotiations during a private meeting with MEPs.

Afterwards, the leader of the Greens in the European parliament, Philippe Lamberts, told the Guardian: “I have zero trust in Labour, I am afraid to say. The Labour position is not to do with principles, but about tactical considerations. It is all about getting the government out of power whatever the cost.”

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Jeremy Corbyn has stated that there will be no second referendum in a Labour manifesto should an early election be called.

Labour just as at odds with each other as the Tories obviously. Time for that centre-left party to emerge I believe.

The whole situation of polarisation in British politics is one I personally find terrifying. We have May offering a post Brexit Brexit paradise, 'a land of low taxes and opportunity' With that will go lower worker's rights, lower public services. You'll be OK as long as you can pay for a decent education or health insurance.
As an alternative we have 'real socialist' Labour party, (an extreme reaction to New Labour) with some ideas I have sympathy with but fear their doctrinaire approach will be an economic disaster......................could we end up with a 'little Venezuela' in Britain's Green and pleasant land? A socialist kingdom trying to survive in an 'economically liberal' world.
There is a desperate need to combat the injusticies, inequalities and detatchment people feel in present day society but I don't think either of the above approaches is going to offer a satisfactory solution.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

The whole situation of polarisation in British politics is one I personally find terrifying. We have May offering a post Brexit Brexit paradise, 'a land of low taxes and opportunity' With that will go lower worker's rights, lower public services. You'll be OK as long as you can pay for a decent education or health insurance.
As an alternative we have 'real socialist' Labour party, (an extreme reaction to New Labour) with some ideas I have sympathy with but fear their doctrinaire approach will be an economic disaster......................could we end up with a 'little Venezuela' in Britain's Green and pleasant land? A socialist kingdom trying to survive in an 'economically liberal' world.
There is a desperate need to combat the injusticies, inequalities and detatchment people feel in present day society but I don't think either of the above approaches is going to offer a satisfactory solution.

AND this is a crisis of almost National Emergency/War and yet we, the people and the politicians especially are divided and entrenched with their own "what's in it for me" attitudes and agendas. Some unity and suggestions rather than carping and negatives would be pleasant surprises.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

“No deal is a recipe for a catastrophic series of consequences.

“It’s also a way of crashing the economy and of doing great damage to our most productive industries.”

More project fear by another pathetic remoaner? Not exactly...........these are the words, this morning, from the Conservative government's Business Minister, Claire Perry.
It should also be said that Hunt's comparison of the EU with the Soviet Union and May's utterings on post-Brexit immigration are going down a bomb in Europe. Sounds like the perfect ground work for the UK to get the very best deal possible .............no deal?

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

So it's leaked out today that Theresa May is willing to bend and give the EU a bit more on the plate to get the silly Chequers deal through. And they have us by the wotsits and are squeezing very tight. It's silly because we will still have to follow the EU rules even tho we are not in the EU. People voted to leave, not to have a foot half in, half out. I suspect that with her being a remainer, she's gone for the Chequers deal to make it a separation rather than a divorce. What a mess.

 

[MK Shrimper]

So it's leaked out today that Theresa May is willing to bend and give the EU a bit more on the plate to get the silly Chequers deal through. And they have us by the wotsits and are squeezing very tight. It's silly because we will still have to follow the EU rules even tho we are not in the EU. People voted to leave, not to have a foot half in, half out. I suspect that with her being a remainer, she's gone for the Chequers deal to make it a separation rather than a divorce. What a mess.

It won't get through Parliament anyway. The hard Brexiters will see to that.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

“No deal is a recipe for a catastrophic series of consequences.

“It’s also a way of crashing the economy and of doing great damage to our most productive industries.”

More project fear by another pathetic remoaner? Not exactly...........these are the words, this morning, from the Conservative government's Business Minister, Claire Perry.
It should also be said that Hunt's comparison of the EU with the Soviet Union and May's utterings on post-Brexit immigration are going down a bomb in Europe. Sounds like the perfect ground work for the UK to get the very best deal possible .............no deal?

Hmm... MP who has put on record their intention to campaign to remain in the EU issues dire Brexit warning shocker... (check the section below Cabinet Ministers and lo and behold Claire Perry is listed):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946

In my opinion, and this may only be me, I prefer to consume news from a range of sources and make my opinions - usually discounting the more extreme statements from all sides of any debate. When someone does issue a statement, a couple of minutes due diligence can quickly throw light on whatever perspective they are coming from and may lead to their views being set in a more balanced context.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

So it's leaked out today that Theresa May is willing to bend and give the EU a bit more on the plate to get the silly Chequers deal through. And they have us by the wotsits and are squeezing very tight. It's silly because we will still have to follow the EU rules even tho we are not in the EU. People voted to leave, not to have a foot half in, half out. I suspect that with her being a remainer, she's gone for the Chequers deal to make it a separation rather than a divorce. What a mess.

It's not a leak but a briefing. May's entire political career has been based upon portraying herself as a fighter. She just picks fights so it looks as if she's doing something as opposed to being an effective minister who can actually get things done.

It's pathetic: the negotiations are being conducted in the newspapers between factions of the Tory party for the benefit of their careers rather than being conducted in Brussels with the EU's mandated negotiator for the benefit of Britain. It's incredible that we've got to this stage and still haven't proposed a viable plan to the EU!

She's setting things up so that she can either blame the EU for not getting a deal (hence saying she's willing to bend so it looks like they are the ones who won't compromise) or will agree a poor deal at the last minute, that has been on the table from the EU from the start, by which time people will just be relieved that we'll only be losing 4% instead of 8% if we no deal (or whatever those figures are).

Serving Article 50 without having a plan in place is the single most reckless, negligent action by a British government that I can think of. Those of you who actually believe in Brexit must be fuming at how this action in your name is being handled.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quite a lot of points - and clarifications - I would want to make in response here YB, but it will need to wait until I have a bit more time.

 

[Cricko]

I would add the BBC and most media to the newspapers.

Never in my life have I seen so much manipulation of the populous. It is a complete farse being played out by idiots, who it seems think this is some Game of Thrones for their own benefit, rather than how it ACTUALLY effects us common plebs.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I would add the BBC and most media to the newspapers.

Never in my life have I seen so much manipulation of the populous. It is a complete farse being played out by idiots, who it seems think this is some Game of Thrones for their own benefit, rather than how it ACTUALLY effects us common plebs.

Indeed, I should have said media rather than newspapers.

The lack of understanding amongst the politicians is scary. So few seem to grasp the reality of what this will mean (other than to their own career).