Brexit negotiations thread

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

But you didn't know the government would **** up the process as they have when the referendum was put to the people and you voted to remain. You couldn't know. Therefore in part your vote was based on your hatred of the Tory party and thus party politically motivated. Granted it's what you believed but that shouldn't have been the reason to vote the way you did. Your vote should have been based on factors such as does the EU act for the benefit and on behalf of ALL the people of all the member states in a democratic and transparent way and has it got a history of doing just that?

That's possibly symptomatic of a great many people that voted remain. Unable or unwilling to do the historical research necessary in order to make an informed and well balanced decision.

My vote was based on whatever I wanted to base my vote on - that is how it works. It was a binary choice with infinite reasons for picking one or the other.
'But you didn't know....' no one knew anything, it's all about predictions.
When you look at the position we are in now - 2 months to go and a government who have been found in contempt of Parliament and had their Leave deal rejected in Parliament by 230 votes and have no plans to majorly change that deal - my reasoning for not voting Leave is at the moment looking justified and my prediction that the process of leaving would be a governmental **** up is looking wholey accurate.

 

[Bielzibubz]

My vote was based on whatever I wanted to base my vote on - that is how it works. It was a binary choice with infinite reasons for picking one or the other.
'But you didn't know....' no one knew anything, it's all about predictions.
When you look at the position we are in now - 2 months to go and a government who have been found in contempt of Parliament and had their Leave deal rejected in Parliament by 230 votes and have no plans to majorly change that deal - my reasoning for not voting Leave is at the moment looking justified and my prediction that the process of leaving would be a governmental **** up is looking wholey accurate.

Then I'm afraid more fool you for voting purely on predictions and not in part on the past proven morally corrupt, physical corrupt and not to mention illegal activities of a club we were a member of.

 

[Bielzibubz]

And I didn't base my vote on any prediction of the forthcoming negotiations. I based in on years of knowledge, reading, listening and learning about the monster the EEC had turned into. For me it's that simple.

 

[blues exile]

And I didn't base my vote on any prediction of the forthcoming negotiations. I based in on years of knowledge, reading, listening and learning about the monster the EEC had turned into. For me it's that simple.

So let's get this clear. The EU is a corrupt monster and once we are out of it, our squeaky clean system of government will be trading partners with exemplars of equally squeaky clean governments with much higher consumer and safety standards than the EU, and where corruption does not exist and where true democracy reigns supreme.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Then I'm afraid more fool you for voting purely on predictions and not in part on the past proven morally corrupt, physical corrupt and not to mention illegal activities of a club we were a member of.

More fool you if you voted for the **** show we are being offered right now.

 

[Bielzibubz]

More fool you if you voted for the **** show we are being offered right now.

I didn't, I can see the pigs ear she and her government have made of this but I didn't vote on the assumption she would based on my political leaning. I based it on research and rational thought.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I didn't, I can see the pigs ear she and her government have made of this but I didn't vote on the assumption she would based on my political leaning. I based it on research and rational thought.

You failed to factor in the **** up the government would make of leaving the EU seemingly - that is quite a major oversight.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

You really couldn't make this stuff up. Seaborne Freight only existed on paper as a start up business with no assets and no ships or ferries. There must have been an almighty backhander, or some other explanation to give it a £13.8 Million contract. The man behind it already had a dodgy past, knocking shipping firms and the tax man. How did it ever pass the due diligence test? As time was running out, the penny finally dropped with the Government that they would be nowhere near ready in the case of a no deal Brexit. They still had no assets, no ships and no ferries. This contract was a risk from day one. And yet just a month ago Chris Grayling defended the Seaborne Freight contract, insisting it was "not a risk". Now the government has to start again with only a few weeks to go and find some other shipping firm. Unbelievable.

Channel 4 have announced a new issue with this - the ferry agreement with the company with no ferries was tied in with making Ramsgate port usable - that work will now not happen as a new deal with a new supplier will need to exist first.

As foreseen in 1994:

 

[rigsby]

You failed to factor in the **** up the government would make of leaving the EU seemingly - that is quite a major oversight.

The vote for leave was not also a vote for the Tory party. It was a vote to leave the EU, no more no less.

The fact that self serving and corrupt MP’s from BOTH major parties have dragged their feet in an attempt to destroy Brexit. Has highlighted how little they really are capable of achieving. If you combine the sneering and collusion in failure from Brussels. We now have a situation where no deal is the best option, to the majority of British voters.

Now before someone quotes a pointless poll. I have spoken to several remainers who would now prefer no deal. The feeling amongst the 52% is of course not just stronger then ever but many now saying in some ways they hope it doesn’t happen because British politics of either Tory or Labour will change for the better.

 

[Bielzibubz]

You failed to factor in the **** up the government would make of leaving the EU seemingly - that is quite a major oversight.

Not if you're the type of person that doesn't allow political dislike of someone and a party cloud their judgement. As I've said many times before I'm neither left, right, left of right nor right of left in my political leanings therefore my judgements can be somewhat more objective than yours. You chose to let your politics dictate the reasoning behind your vote, I didn't.

I have a lot of respect and time for your posts on here A S S but the holier than thou attitude and the constant and incessant whining about TM are getting tiresome now.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Not if you're the type of person that doesn't allow political dislike of someone and a party cloud their judgement. As I've said many times before I'm neither left, right, left of right nor right of left in my political leanings therefore my judgements can be somewhat more objective than yours. You chose to let your politics dictate the reasoning behind your vote, I didn't.

I have a lot of respect and time for your posts on here A S S but the holier than thou attitude and the constant and incessant whining about TM are getting tiresome now.

A government would need to enact the process of leaving. That's not party political it's a fact. The referendum decision is firstly do I want to leave and secondly do I think the government of the day can make that happen and for leaving still to be beneficial. Common sense surely.

Mrs May is our PM, asking people not to criticise her too often when talking about politics is not realistic - she is our PM.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47187491

May to ask MP's for more time on her Brexit bill.Hardly suprising .Also some talk on Marr earlier about a new admendment promising support for her bill if its linked with another referendum.Now that would be interesting.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Not if you're the type of person that doesn't allow political dislike of someone and a party cloud their judgement. As I've said many times before I'm neither left, right, left of right nor right of left in my political leanings therefore my judgements can be somewhat more objective than yours. You chose to let your politics dictate the reasoning behind your vote, I didn't.

I have a lot of respect and time for your posts on here A S S but the holier than thou attitude and the constant and incessant whining about TM are getting tiresome now.

If you think your opinions are anything but right wing ,you're very much mistaken,

Again your complaint about a fellow poster is something you're guilty of, in spades,yourself.

(And before you start), I've never made any secret of my own left wing beliefs.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

1. So in the case of Greece the pain it's people had to and continue to endure in order to save the Euro was worth it was it? Ends justify the means?

2. The mountains of unserviceable debt these countries were forced to enter into through MoU's in order to once again bail out and save the EU and the Euro from ruin has nothing to do with that countries financial surplice. In 2015 Ireland was running a national surplice of 2% but still owed billions and billions of dept to the ECB and IMF that it was trying to service through tough austerity measures at home, amongst other things.

Vincent Browne v The ECB

I'm done now. People who don't want to see never will see. No matter how corrupt, immoral and undemocratic the EU there are those that just plain refuse to see it. If it were a company it would have been shut down years ago and its leaders would be behind bars by now. It makes Bernie Madoff look like a Sunday school charity tin thief.

With regard to 1. I specifically said that I agreed with you with regard to Greece.Nor in this particular case have I ever suggested that the ends justified the means. Haven't been to Greece since their spat with the EU (though have been many times before).What I hear from friends though who have been recently is that it's been tough for all Greeks (something we've all seen on our TV screens),

2.The points you make about budget surpluses in 2. do not gainsay my point that Ireland,Portugal and Spain (where I live) are currently no longer in recession.

 

[Bielzibubz]

A government would need to enact the process of leaving. That's not party political it's a fact. The referendum decision is firstly do I want to leave and secondly do I think the government of the day can make that happen and for leaving still to be beneficial. Common sense surely.

Mrs May is our PM, asking people not to criticise her too often when talking about politics is not realistic - she is out PM.

Firstly, asking yourself do I think the government of the day can do it and will it be beneficial to the nation are two separate questions. Both of which are influenced by your dislike of the Tories and T May in particular. Basing your leave vote on whether it could be delivered by the Tory government of the day is automatically rendering your vote biased and thus it's not being based on objective non partisan reasoning. Which it should be. It's basing it on your political beliefs. Which in my opinion is wrong.

Understandable I suppose seeing as it's a highly political subject but I still contend that any referendum decision reached through a non politically biased and politically neutral understanding of all chosen researched material holds more argumentative sway in any debate.

I count myself one of the lucky ones. I've never, ever nailed my flag to any one political pole or another. I listen to them all. I read and research what I can form all parties. So when it comes to making any major political decision such as at a GE or a referendum such as the one in 2016 I can do so knowing I'm not doing it because of some party political allegiance. Times change, personal circumstances change and thus so do my voting habits based on what I believe to be best at that time. 60 years of EU history and my own non politically motivated research brought me to make the decision I did.

Now, did I think at the time .... 'Can this Government deliver on its promise to leave'? Honestly no I didn't give it a thought. I put my trust in them as I would have done be they Tory, Labour or Lib Dem or a coalition. Because I'm not affiliated to any one political party I can afford the luxury of knowing that my vote wasn't biased in any way.

To give an example of what I'm trying to get across. I've been accused on here of being right wing or far right in my political leanings because of some of the things I post except, get this, I have nothing but full admiration for Yanis Varoufukis in his dealing with the EU over the years and you can't get much further left of the political spectrum than him.

Edited to add this...

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Firstly, asking yourself do I think the government of the day can do it and will it be beneficial to the nation are two separate questions. Both of which are influenced by your dislike of the Tories and T May in particular. Basing your leave vote on whether it could be delivered by the Tory government of the day is automatically rendering your vote biased and thus it's not being based on objective non partisan reasoning. Which it should be. It's basing it on your political beliefs. Which in my opinion is wrong.

Understandable I suppose seeing as it's a highly political subject but I still contend that any referendum decision reached through a non politically biased and politically neutral understanding of all chosen researched material holds more argumentative sway in any debate.

I count myself one of the lucky ones. I've never, ever nailed my flag to any one political pole or another. I listen to them all. I read and research what I can form all parties. So when it comes to making any major political decision such as at a GE or a referendum such as the one in 2016 I can do so knowing I'm not doing it because of some party political allegiance. Times change, personal circumstances change and thus so do my voting habits based on what I believe to be best at that time. 60 years of EU history and my own non politically motivated research brought me to make the decision I did.

Now, did I think at the time .... 'Can this Government deliver on its promise to leave'? Honestly no I didn't give it a thought. I put my trust in them as I would have done be they Tory, Labour or Lib Dem or a coalition. Because I'm not affiliated to any one political party I can afford the luxury of knowing that my vote wasn't biased in any way.

To give an example of what I'm trying to get across. I've been accused on here of being right wing or far right in my political leanings because of some of the things I post except, get this, I have nothing but full admiration for Yanis Varoufukis in his dealing with the EU over the years and you can't get much further left of the political spectrum than him.

Edited to add this...
View attachment 7238

You are overthinking my vote.
Mine goes - are those in charge capable of enacting a complex procedure? No - then don't vote for them to attempt to do that.

You keep talking about party politics - that was nothing to do with my vote. If Labour had been in power I would most likely come to the same conclusion, but I had to assess the ability of the government at the time. That situation got worse as May is a worse PM than Cameron and over the course of this process many of her senior politicians have jumped ship. Davis, Johnson, Rabb amongst others have also decided the May government are not capable of delivering a smooth exit - they are not saying that because May is a Tory either.

 

[Bielzibubz]

OK you say you'd have voted remain regardless of what Government was in power, Tory, Labour or other and that party politics had nothing to do with it. If that's what you say I'll accept it. But, you voted on such a crucial and important issue based on assumptions, beliefs and opinion, not what 60 years of factual EU history has, or to be more precise, what it hasn't taught, some of us.

It still staggers me that despite all the available evidence that's out there that there are still some on here that continue to think it's just OK to just accept the status quo and to continue to be a part of morally bankrupt, corrupt and fiscally broken club because of fear of the future out of it. There's nowt so queer as folk.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

OK you say you'd have voted remain regardless of what Government was in power, Tory, Labour or other and that party politics had nothing to do with it. If that's what you say I'll accept it. But, you voted on such a crucial and important issue based on assumptions, beliefs and opinion, not what 60 years of factual EU history has, or to be more precise, what it hasn't taught, some of us.

It still staggers me that despite all the available evidence that's out there that there are still some on here that continue to think it's just OK to just accept the status quo and to continue to be a part of morally bankrupt, corrupt and fiscally broken club because of fear of the future out of it. There's nowt so queer as folk.

Most of the "available evidence that's out there" (or opinion if you prefer) supports the idea that leaving the EU on the 29th March would be economically disastrous for the UK economy.

Most remainers (or reluctant leavers like myself) fervently hope that the EU can be reformed.

As Sartre said: "Hell is other people".

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47187491

More Brexit votes coming up for MP's.Cant wait.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

OK you say you'd have voted remain regardless of what Government was in power, Tory, Labour or other and that party politics had nothing to do with it. If that's what you say I'll accept it. But, you voted on such a crucial and important issue based on assumptions, beliefs and opinion, not what 60 years of factual EU history has, or to be more precise, what it hasn't taught, some of us.

It still staggers me that despite all the available evidence that's out there that there are still some on here that continue to think it's just OK to just accept the status quo and to continue to be a part of morally bankrupt, corrupt and fiscally broken club because of fear of the future out of it. There's nowt so queer as folk.

Yes, I used the fact that the government of the day would **** up the process of leaving and therefore we would definitely be worse off out than in.

If at some point there is a government who win my trust by having the ability to process domestic policy that is efficient and fair then I would reconsider my vote to remain in the EU. That would be a few years off if at all.