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danburyshrimper

Manager
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
2,141
Saw Liverpool v Newcastle Reserves last night , Southend got a few mentions as Michael Ngoo is the star man of the moment up there. The giant ex-shrimper youth player has forced himself into the reckoning with another quality performance, and often out muscled Sol Campbell and his pace + power a constant threat. The commentator was constantly raving about his goals this year and was pushing hard for him to be in the Liverpool 1st team when they play Northampton in the cup soon , especially with Dirk Kuyt injured + they wont want to risk Torres. So basically this should lead to Southend picking up a sum in the region of £250k if Ngoo plays.

3 wins on the bounce for Blues , onions back in the burgers + cash coming in from all directions ..... Its great to be a Shrimper again !!! : -- )
 

EastStandBlue

Life President
Joined
May 29, 2005
Messages
15,487
I understand that it's graduated... i.e. A sum when he makes his debut, another sum when he makes 10 appearances, and so on. Similar to how Hamilton have been earning money on a regular basis as James McCarthy continues to play for Wigan.
 

number11

"Good morning everybody........"
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
5,622
Did we have a sell on for this guy or is it just capped to a possible £250,000? I heard the guy get a mention on TalkSport recently so he does appear to be making an impression.....
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
549
Location
New Zealand
He was our soccer am skills school winner wasn't he? I've seen loads of his goals for liverpool reserves this year on their free sky channel 434 (yes, i'm unemployed!!). And he scored for England under 19s recently I believe
 

EastStandBlue

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Messages
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Did we have a sell on for this guy or is it just capped to a possible £250,000? I heard the guy get a mention on TalkSport recently so he does appear to be making an impression.....

We can earn up to £250,000 pending his success at Liverpool... A sell-on is also included, but it isn't capped at £250k.
 

hindle_666

Manager
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
1,129
Cant see why the club is not doing its upmost to bring this boy in on loan...he would destroy this league.........£250000 seems pittance for a player with his potential.......I understand the club couldnt stand in this boys way,but i feel gutted that despite finding 1 of the best players ever to come out our youth system, we will never got the rewards for finding such a talent..........A handful of first team games and a couple of goals his value would have been million's not thousand's.........and if he would have been here at the end of last season 1st team appearences would have been more than likely.
There were another 2 top youths(Femi Orenuga,Medi Abalimba) that also left to Everton and Derby around the same time...I suppose at the time any money was/or still is greatly received.
 
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EastStandBlue

Life President
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May 29, 2005
Messages
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Cant see why the club is not doing its upmost to bring this boy in on loan...he would destroy this league.........£250000 seems pittance for a player with his potential.......I understand the club couldnt stand in this boys way,but i feel gutted that despite finding 1 of the best players ever to come out our youth system, we will never got the rewards for finding such a talent..........A handful of first team games and a couple of goals his value would have been million's not thousand's.........and if he would have been here at the end of last season 1st team appearences would have been more than likely.
There were another 2 top youths that also left to Everton and Derby around the same time...I suppose at the time any money was/or still is greatly received.

Well, no, not really, as he was only signed on Academy terms... If we'd played him in the first team under scholarship terms he could've walked away at the end of his scholarship and signed for Liverpool on his 17th birthday, leaving us to pick up a pittance through tribunal.

Considering the average fees for youngsters who move to Premiership academies, £250,000 is a considerably large sum. Don't hate the players, hate the game.

As for Abalimba, the day before Derby contacted us Duncan was preparing to sling him out over a string of disciplinary offences and allegations... So getting money for a player we were ready to release was seen as a pretty amicable split.
 
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fredheim_holm

Where art thou Tes
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Messages
8,149
Location
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EastStandBlue

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I don't understand ESB. You say we earn 'up to £250,000', that sounds like it's capped at that to me? (+ sell on).

The fee we recieve is based upon his success.

We recieved £25k up front IIRC, and installments will be made as he continues his career (usually something along the lines of first appearance, 10 appearances, first goal, 10 goals, first full International cap etc). So we can earn "up to" £250,000 providing he realises his potential. Most transfers for youngster are stipulated in this fashion, as even a Premiership club wouldn't stump up £250k on a youngster on the back of a handful of appearances in the Puma Alliance.

A sell-on is a different clause, so it has no relation to the clauses triggered by his success.

Now, if he had played and impressed while on International duty during his time here, then we'd be in a position to barter for a higher fee as he's proven his ability on a higher stage. Unfortunately, the chances of him earning acclaim at that level rapidly increase when he's at a club who are regularly watched by England scouts.
 

hindle_666

Manager
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Messages
1,129
Well, no, not really, as he was only signed on Academy terms... If we'd played him in the first team under scholarship terms he could've walked away at the end of his scholarship and signed for Liverpool on his 17th birthday, leaving us to pick up a pittance through tribunal.

Maybe but proberly still more than £250000?,on the other hand the potential of this player must of been obvious to the coaching staff so an offer of a pro deal(pre contract terms) plus chance of first team football before he played a 1st team game could have been enough to convince him to start his career here?
I understand Southend is a tiny club in comparison to Liverpool and this wont be the last player we lose this way,but it would be nice to think our youth system will benefit the 1st team(with some of the best prospects coming through) as well as our -bank balance.....Thats football though and is in part along with money why the gap between premiership and lower league football increases daily.
 
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EastStandBlue

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May 29, 2005
Messages
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Maybe but proberly still more than £250000?,on the other hand the potential of this player must of been obvious to the coaching staff so an offer of a pro deal(pre contract terms) plus chance of first team football before he played a 1st team game could have been enough to convince him to start his career here?
I understand Southend is a tiny club in comparison to Liverpool and this wont be the last player we lose this way,but it would be nice to think our youth system will benefit the 1st team(with some of the best prospects comming through) as well as our -bank balance.....Thats football though and is in part along with money why the gap between premiership and lower league football increases daily.

UEFA tend to have a problem with clubs who offer professional contracts to minors...

It was either Man United's acquisition of Paul Pogba or Chelsea's of Gael Kakuta that was redeemed by UEFA after it came out that the previous club had made him sign a "pre-contract" at the age of 16. When the case was brought before UEFA, they deemed that contract to be null and void, because it was technically against UEFA jurisdiction, allowing the club to get the youngster for next to nothing.
 

fredheim_holm

Where art thou Tes
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Messages
8,149
Location
London
The fee we recieve is based upon his success.

We recieved £25k up front IIRC, and installments will be made as he continues his career (usually something along the lines of first appearance, 10 appearances, first goal, 10 goals, first full International cap etc). So we can earn "up to" £250,000 providing he realises his potential. Most transfers for youngster are stipulated in this fashion, as even a Premiership club wouldn't stump up £250k on a youngster on the back of a handful of appearances in the Puma Alliance.

A sell-on is a different clause, so it has no relation to the clauses triggered by his success.

Now, if he had played and impressed while on International duty during his time here, then we'd be in a position to barter for a higher fee as he's proven his ability on a higher stage. Unfortunately, the chances of him earning acclaim at that level rapidly increase when he's at a club who are regularly watched by England scouts.
Ah, so basically, we've got in the contract we can earn up to £250,000, but we can also claim more if he becomes the next Peter Crouch? (aiming high I know)
 

Beefy

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Oct 27, 2003
Messages
18,901
Location
Old Leigh
base what?

1 the clubs is not trying ?
2 he would destroy this league ?

Well I guess both, but primarily the second one. He's a kid. Doing alright in youth matches (and his goal record last season wasn't that hot) is no guarantee that he'd destroy the lower leagues.
 

hindle_666

Manager
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
1,129
UEFA tend to have a problem with clubs who offer professional contracts to minors...

It was either Man United's acquisition of Paul Pogba or Chelsea's of Gael Kakuta that was redeemed by UEFA after it came out that the previous club had made him sign a "pre-contract" at the age of 16. When the case was brought before UEFA, they deemed that contract to be null and void, because it was technically against UEFA jurisdiction, allowing the club to get the youngster for next to nothing.

I see....

So the big clubs academies take the best young players that they can scout at a young age ie upto 14.....And any that slip there net ie(later developers) Ngoo they can come and take for a nominal fee at tribunal before they hit 17?...So we only got £250000 (potentially) due to the interest of man u along with liverpool's meaning liverpool snapped him up why man u were dragging there heels proberly hoping to take him for a nominal fee at 17?
So it means little clubs havent got a leg to stand on!
Seems about right TBH
 

EastStandBlue

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May 29, 2005
Messages
15,487
Ah, so basically, we've got in the contract we can earn up to £250,000, but we can also claim more if he becomes the next Peter Crouch? (aiming high I know)

If he's sold on, then yes.

I see....

So the big clubs academies take the best young players that they can scout at a young age ie upto 14.....And any that slip there net ie(later developers) Ngoo they can come and take for a nominal fee at tribunal before they hit 17?...So we only got £250000 (potentially) due to the interest of man u along with liverpool's meaning liverpool snapped him up why man u were dragging there heels proberly hoping to take him for a nominal fee at 17?
So it means little clubs havent got a leg to stand on!
Seems about right TBH

Academies can offer more development for players as they train for longer periods with far better coaches in far better facilities than we can provide at this moment in time... We could've stood in his way, stopped him joining Liverpool in the vain hope that he either signed a professional contract with us or played for the U17/U19's, which would've allowed us to barter a higher fee either with Liverpool or by tribunal.

Centres of Excellence tend to be in a far more advantageous position if they're willing to negotiate with big clubs, rather than fight them...
 

number11

"Good morning everybody........"
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
5,622
If he's sold on, then yes.



Academies can offer more development for players as they train for longer periods with far better coaches in far better facilities than we can provide at this moment in time... We could've stood in his way, stopped him joining Liverpool in the vain hope that he either signed a professional contract with us or played for the U17/U19's, which would've allowed us to barter a higher fee either with Liverpool or by tribunal.

Centres of Excellence tend to be in a far more advantageous position if they're willing to negotiate with big clubs, rather than fight them...

It must serve as a pretty good advertisement for our youth system if we can show any prospects that we have developed players deemed good enough to go onto Liverpool and Everton (and Derby...) and also that if those clubs come calling we wont stand in their way. It must make us an attractive proposition to potential young players.

Also, getting (possibly) £250,000 for a player that hasnt played for us....plus a % if he goes on to be sold seems a pretty reasonable deal. Obviously if he goes on to be a world beater and £10mil plus player but leaves on a bosman, or sees out his career at liverpool a la Gerrard or Carragher then we don't see much benefit beyond £250,000, but not sure we could hav expected much more money.
 
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