Champions League Final

[Tangled up in Blue]

I don't think anyone is disputing that tens of thousands of fans were there without tickets, what people are disputing is the narrative that it somehow means all those people must have come to try and break into the stadium.

And I wouldnt necessarily disagree with that but thousands of fans being in the vicinity of the Stade de France without tickets is a formula for disruption for those who did have tickets and wanted to enter the ground.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I thought you were asking about the British media: the ones who have in recent years covered: the Hillsborough inquiry which found that the government and police versions in the aftermath were more concerned about protecting reputations than establishing the truth; various Met cover-ups such as the Daniel Morgan case and the toxic culture of the Met; the constant lies for political purposes from the Home Office etc.

I can fully understand why they may ignore police and politician briefings that contradict what their reporters on the ground were experiencing as police and government ministers’ versions given at home repeatedly have little in common with the the truth.

I don’t doubt there were Liverpool fans without tickets but it seems it was poorly organised with 20,000 ticketed fans funnelled through one narrow gap.

Of course it probably wasn’t helped by UEFA awarding it to Russia in the first place and then having to change venue at short notice.

France are playing Denmark in a friendly International at the Stade de France at the weekend and I would hope any enquiry into last Saturday's events is concluded before then.

 

[OldBlueLady]

It's strange isn't it, how often Hillsborough gets mentioned in relation to Liverpool supporters, but Heysel rarely does.

I feel genuinely sorry for the legitimate travellers, particularly the family groups with mums, dads and children in, who had to experience such a horrible experience in the lead up to the game, but this kind of problem always arises in Europe, and France in particular. UEFA and the French authorities did NOT organise this well, they should stop scapegoating the Liverpool fans, but equally Liverpool fans who travelled knowingly with a fake ticket or with no ticket should take a good, hard look at themselves.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

There has been reports that a few thousand Real Madrid fans turned up with no tickets as well, probably hoping to buy from touts. Quite a few then bunked into the stadium as you have probably seen. The difference is the Real Madrid fans were not kettled at two places. They were not segregated in large cage type situations. They did not queue for hours, because they had more freedom. They were not pepper sprayed for no justifiable reason through steel bars. They had quite a few turnstiles to go through, rather than a ridiculous two. Normally at these big finals, there are checkpoints long before the turnstiles, to weed out ticketless fans, or those with fake tickets. So as not to cause a large build up of fans at the turnstiles. Then you had the police and riot police being very anti Liverpool fans, beating quite a few up after the game away from cameras, on the way to the metro. The stewards at the turnstiles were wrongly identifying fake tickets, some of those genuine tickets were from Liverpool FC to friends and relatives. That caused more hold ups, arguments and a few batton wacks from the police, to fans that had travelled hundreds of miles and had genuine tickets. Now they're in danger of not getting in, and loads didn't. You can understand the frustration. The whole thing was a organisational mess. Not helped by the disgraceful way the police behaved, and by local youths and men that had no right to be there, other than to bunk in the stadium and watch a final for free, rob, or attack Liverpool fans.

 

[Leigh_Seasider]

There has been reports that a few thousand Real Madrid fans turned up with no tickets as well, probably hoping to buy from touts. Quite a few then bunked into the stadium as you have probably seen. The difference is the Real Madrid fans were not kettled at two places. They were not segregated in large cage type situations. They did not queue for hours, because they had more freedom. They were not pepper sprayed for no justifiable reason through steel bars. They had quite a few turnstiles to go through, rather than a ridiculous two. Normally at these big finals, there are checkpoints long before the turnstiles, to weed out ticketless fans, or those with fake tickets. So as not to cause a large build up of fans at the turnstiles. Then you had the police and riot police being very anti Liverpool fans, beating quite a few up after the game away from cameras, on the way to the metro. The stewards at the turnstiles were wrongly identifying fake tickets, some of those genuine tickets were from Liverpool FC to friends and relatives. That caused more hold ups, arguments and a few batton wacks from the police, to fans that had travelled hundreds of miles and had genuine tickets. Now they're in danger of not getting in, and loads didn't. You can understand the frustration. The whole thing was a organisational mess. Not helped by the disgraceful way the police behaved, and by local youths and men that had no right to be there, other than to bunk in the stadium and watch a final for free, rob, or attack Liverpool fans.

British fans have got a reputation for drinking cities dry, showing absolutely no respect for local laws/cultures and being confrontational and aggressive. Now local hooligans/police target fans and see them as fair game. There seems to be trouble every time now, I know there was before the Frankfurt-West Ham game and then the final vs Rangers in the Europa League. Masses of fans gathered, drinking .. starts off good natured but descends into trouble. It's pretty common now, attacks by other groups of fans.

Look at the Euro final vs Italy and the chaos outside the ground and in, with thousands of fans without tickets running amok. I don't think Brits can claim complete innocence or shock at stuff like this. As far as I'm aware Madrid fans/Spanish fans in general don't have the same reputation for trouble that the Brits do. Maybe that explains some of this.

 

[South Bank Hank]

It's strange isn't it, how often Hillsborough gets mentioned in relation to Liverpool supporters, but Heysel rarely does.

I feel genuinely sorry for the legitimate travellers, particularly the family groups with mums, dads and children in, who had to experience such a horrible experience in the lead up to the game, but this kind of problem always arises in Europe, and France in particular. UEFA and the French authorities did NOT organise this well, they should stop scapegoating the Liverpool fans, but equally Liverpool fans who travelled knowingly with a fake ticket or with no ticket should take a good, hard look at themselves.

Agree with this but, honestly, I can’t imagine many travelling knowingly with a fake ticket. More likely, if fake tickets were in wide circulation, then many would have been duped. Put yourself in their shoes, and it’s a really **** situation.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

British fans have got a reputation for drinking cities dry, showing absolutely no respect for local laws/cultures and being confrontational and aggressive. Now local hooligans/police target fans and see them as fair game. There seems to be trouble every time now, I know there was before the Frankfurt-West Ham game and then the final vs Rangers in the Europa League. Masses of fans gathered, drinking .. starts off good natured but descends into trouble. It's pretty common now, attacks by other groups of fans.

Look at the Euro final vs Italy and the chaos outside the ground and in, with thousands of fans without tickets running amok. I don't think Brits can claim complete innocence or shock at stuff like this. As far as I'm aware Madrid fans/Spanish fans in general don't have the same reputation for trouble that the Brits do. Maybe that explains some of this.

I don't think the issue here is that Liverpool fans were causing trouble at, or on the way to the stadium. Yes, they have some real scum as fans, as do lots of clubs. As I said in another post, I have personally witnessed and been on the end of it. Out of all the clubs I sold football souvenirs to at the old Wembley in the 80s, Liverpool and Everton were by far the worst for trying to rob us, or steam robbing local shops. They were an absolute nightmare. So if anything, I should be anti-Liverpool. But I'm telling it as I see it. I have now watched most of the hours of footage, and the Liverpool fans at the stadium were incredibly well behaved considering how they were treated. Don't forget also that they were pepper sprayed, and there was no first aiders to give a compress and water for their eyes. especially when it's kids or the frail. Incredible. They are trying to blame Liverpool fans for this complete shambles. They are saying 40,000 Liverpool fans with fake tickets were in those turnstile queues. If so, where were they just after the game kicked off? Because there were a few hundred Liverpool fans outside, most still queueing with genuine tickets. So where did these 40,000 go, into thin air? That's a lot of people. The police and stewards were confiscating fake tickets, to stop them being sold on. So they must have near on 40,000 fake tickets confiscated. I bet they haven't even got 1000. Maybe not even 100.

 

[Leigh_Seasider]

I don't think the issue here is that Liverpool fans were causing trouble at, or on the way to the stadium. Yes, they have some real scum as fans, as do lots of clubs. As I said in another post, I have personally witnessed and been on the end of it. Out of all the clubs I sold football souvenirs to at the old Wembley in the 80s, Liverpool and Everton were by far the worst for trying to rob us, or steam robbing local shops. They were an absolute nightmare. So if anything, I should be anti-Liverpool. But I'm telling it as I see it. I have now watched most of the hours of footage, and the Liverpool fans at the stadium were incredibly well behaved considering how they were treated. Don't forget also that they were pepper sprayed, and there was no first aiders to give a compress and water for their eyes. especially when it's kids or the frail. Incredible. They are trying to blame Liverpool fans for this complete shambles. They are saying 40,000 Liverpool fans with fake tickets were in those turnstile queues. If so, where were they just after the game kicked off? Because there were a few hundred Liverpool fans outside, most still queueing with genuine tickets. So where did these 40,000 go, into thin air? That's a lot of people. The police and stewards were confiscating fake tickets, to stop hem being sold on. So they must have near on 40,000 fake tickets confiscated. I bet they haven't even got 1000. Maybe not even 100.

You might have a point that Liverpool fans were mainly innocent this time and it's unfortunate that women and kids were caught up in it. I'm just giving some history (don't Liverpool fans love that word?) .. and background as to why British fans might get treated this way abroad. It's unfortunate and well, if French police have overstepped the line they should be investigated.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Agree with this but, honestly, I can’t imagine many travelling knowingly with a fake ticket. More likely, if fake tickets were in wide circulation, then many would have been duped. Put yourself in their shoes, and it’s a really **** situation.

Granted.As someone who paid 5 times the cover price to get in the Tunisian end for the England v Tunisia game during the 1998 World Cup in Marseille I'd have been well miffed if the ticket had turned out out to be a fake.Times (and QR codes) have changed since then of course.There's already talk here of no more paper tickets being available in future.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

David Squires on … Real Madrid’s Champions League final victory

Our resident cartoonist on a night in Paris for football romantics, with chaos outside and Real Madrid upsetting the elite

www.theguardian.com

Funny.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.lemonde.fr/football/art...iasco-au-stade-de-france_6128324_1616938.html

The view from Le Monde.

 

[Swiss Tony]

https://www.lemonde.fr/football/art...iasco-au-stade-de-france_6128324_1616938.html

The view from Le Monde.

The Daily Star makes more sense.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The Daily Star makes more sense.

Used to read the Morning Star and IIRC a newsagent's in Helston gave me a copy of the DS by mistake for that once.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

At last. A French journalist and broadcaster willing to speak the truth.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Liverpool want more details on report into Champions League chaos

Liverpool’s chief executive, Billy Hogan, said the club want more details about the report Uefa has commissioned into the chaos at the Champions League final in Paris

www.theguardian.com

See it's now being claimed that there were just 2,800 fake tickets in circulation before Saturday's game.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Liverpool want more details on report into Champions League chaos

Liverpool’s chief executive, Billy Hogan, said the club want more details about the report Uefa has commissioned into the chaos at the Champions League final in Paris

www.theguardian.com

See it's now being claimed that there were just 2,800 fake tickets in circulation before Saturday's game.

Yep. As I said before, where were these 40,000 fans that had fake tickets. Where did they disappear to? Fake tickets were confiscated. Show us the pile of 2,800 fake tickets. These are made up figures to put all the trouble onto Liverpool supporters. That new fake ticket figure is to make it look more realistic, once they realised the 40,000 figure wasn't going to wash. I say there were fake tickets, but possibly less than 500. Also, hundreds of real tickets were being rejected at the turnstile. Rejected tickets go down as fake tickets, even though they weren't. So their figure is definitely false. There's also video out there that shows all the local French Moroccan's and French Africans attacking and mugging Liverpool supporters, bunking in, and even being let in by their steward mates at the turnstiles. It might go down as racial if I put it on here, so I won't. Even though It's only showing with video evidence what was happening. Why aren't the French mentioning the problems and crimes caused by their locals that had no need to be at the stadium?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Yep. As I said before, where were these 40,000 fans that had fake tickets. Where did they disappear to? Fake tickets were confiscated. Show us the pile of 2,800 fake tickets. These are made up figures to put all the trouble onto Liverpool supporters. That new fake ticket figure is to make it look more realistic, once they realised the 40,000 figure wasn't going to wash. I say there were fake tickets, but possibly less than 500. Also, hundreds of real tickets were being rejected at the turnstile. Rejected tickets go down as fake tickets, even though they weren't. So their figure is definitely false. There's also video out there that shows all the local French Moroccan's and French Africans attacking and mugging Liverpool supporters, bunking in, and even being let in by their steward mates at the turnstiles. It might go down as racial if I put it on here, so I won't. Even though It's only showing with video evidence what was happening. Why aren't the French mentioning the problems and crimes caused by their locals that had no need to be at the stadium?

The fake tickets as the article I linked to claimed were tickets whichwere refused at the tunrnstiles.Some of them indeed may have been genuine.

As Keynes memorably said :- "When the facts change I tend to change my mind.What do you do ,sir?"

 

[rigsby]

France are playing Denmark in a friendly International at the Stade de France at the weekend and I would hope any enquiry into last Saturday's events is concluded before then.

Like all modern enquiries it will take a lot more time to decide the narrative and select evidence that suits the result they want….Before you even start the enquiry.

That aside how does a dead rubber end of season friendly with Denmark remotely compare to a Champions league final with tens of thousands travelling from two different countries……As we know from Hysel and Hillsborough the problems rocket by ten fold when you have a stadium full of travelling fans rather than the normal 75% locals.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Like all modern enquiries it will take a lot more time to decide the narrative and select evidence that suits the result they want….Before you even start the enquiry.

That aside how does a dead rubber end of season friendly with Denmark remotely compare to a Champions league final with tens of thousands travelling from two different countries……As we know from Hysel and Hillsborough the problems rocket by ten fold when you have a stadium full of travelling fans rather than the normal 75% locals.

it compares in that you can pretty much guarantee there won't be any crowd trouble or policing isues at this particular game.

Otherwise I agree with the points you make.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

People are asking me what am I on about, the local French men/youths. Here is a bit of it to give an idea. This is absolutely shocking, but quite tame compared to the much longer and more graphic one I won't put on here.