Court Winding Up Petition 28th October 2020

[GBJ]

Isn't there a period for buyers to come forward?

So, could still play a few?

I really don’t know ??‍

 

[jaffa1]

If both nos 5 & 7 survive the appearance before Judge Briggs, perhaps Ron might care to avail himself of the services of no7. Always the optimist !! We could do with some new hope.

I was in court the very first time we faced a winding up order and think it's quite telling that it was a huge deal then, but is now treated like an every-day occurrence. My wife was with me that day, she used to be in PA and saw two companies she helped launch go under. It was quite sobering seeing someone wiped out by the stroke of a pen.

 

[Jai]

I’ll be honest I’m not too sure of the process, but I’m assuming that if we were wound up tomorrow, then tonight’s game against Oldham would be our last ever game?

I don't think it's instant. I think interested parties have a set amount of time to come forward and buy the club but they'd need to take it on 100%. I would imagine our next fixture will be suspended while this process takes place, and if nobody comes forward we will forfeit our place in the competition soon afterwards.

 

[GBJ]

I don't think it's instant. I think interested parties have a set amount of time to come forward and buy the club but they'd need to take it on 100%. I would imagine our next fixture will be suspended while this process takes place, and if nobody comes forward we will forfeit our place in the competition soon afterwards.

My memory is hazy, but I don’t recall Macclesfield being given a grace period to find alternative ownership?

I think Bury did, but they weren’t in court on an unpaid tax bill, IIRC.

 

[Blue Yonder]

So what are we thinking the odds are ?

I'm going for payment in full 5% chance (19/1)
Part payment and adjournment 80% chance (1/4)
Wound up 15% chance (approx 13/2))

Not been much ITK guidance on this one.

 

[Shrimpergonzo]

I listened in last time and Macclesfield were a right old mess, basically the judge had run out of patience as in none of their previous hearings had they paid anything. With ours, it was all over in an instant - Ron had partially paid and HMRC asked for the extension until tomorrow so that he could pay the rest and fill out the paperwork. Obviously if nothing has happened since, we might be in a bit more difficulty tomorrow, but my guess is something will be paid they'll say that we haven't received the prop up funding from EFL/Premier League yet and the balance will be paid when we do and we'll get another couple of months to pay. Certainly not expecting it to be resolved tomorrow one way or the other...

 

[Napster]

I listened in last time and Macclesfield were a right old mess, basically the judge had run out of patience as in none of their previous hearings had they paid anything. With ours, it was all over in an instant - Ron had partially paid and HMRC asked for the extension until tomorrow so that he could pay the rest and fill out the paperwork. Obviously if nothing has happened since, we might be in a bit more difficulty tomorrow, but my guess is something will be paid they'll say that we haven't received the prop up funding from EFL/Premier League yet and the balance will be paid when we do and we'll get another couple of months to pay. Certainly not expecting it to be resolved tomorrow one way or the other...

Yeah this is most likely.

 

[rowe23]

Question for anyone that is more clued up than me, if rm transferred our licence to another company in order to play in the league and The Southend United foot ball club Ltd was wound up. 1 would that be allowed by the EFL, effectively a transfer of ownership. 2 what would happen to the debts, as these are against a company that currently owns the football club, is this a loop hole that rm may try and exploit? As I say no idea if it is legal or would allowed by the EFL but could open up possible revenue streams from further borrowing..

 

[Lord Football]

We won't get wound up. We won't pay all the bill. We will be back here in a month or so.

HMRC won't push to liquidate a business if it can be shown that the potential to clear the debt is there. They have a moral responsibility to keep people in work. If the creditor was anyone else, that would be very different.

The really annoying thing is that continuing to be in these circumstances significantly reduces how the club can operate in the transfer market or when handing out contracts. Given a choice, would you work for a business that gives all the signs of living hand to mouth when other, better, options exist.

So the saga goes on, the manager remains stymied, the club continues to spiral and there is no reasonable chance of the man in the middle leaving.

Last year we all said, pretty much to a person, that Ron had to make the right decisions or we would plummet into the National League. I think it's fair to say every major decision made since Phil Brown leaving has been wrong (even if PB leaving wasn't wrong), and yes, I do say that with a lot of hindsight.

 

[GBJ]

We won't get wound up. We won't pay all the bill. We will be back here in a month or so.

HMRC won't push to liquidate a business if it can be shown that the potential to clear the debt is there. They have a moral responsibility to keep people in work. If the creditor was anyone else, that would be very different.

The really annoying thing is that continuing to be in these circumstances significantly reduces how the club can operate in the transfer market or when handing out contracts. Given a choice, would you work for a business that gives all the signs of living hand to mouth when other, better, options exist.

So the saga goes on, the manager remains stymied, the club continues to spiral and there is no reasonable chance of the man in the middle leaving.

Last year we all said, pretty much to a person, that Ron had to make the right decisions or we would plummet into the National League. I think it's fair to say every major decision made since Phil Brown leaving has been wrong (even if PB leaving wasn't wrong), and yes, I do say that with a lot of hindsight.

Good post.

I just wanted to expand on one part too. We all want Ron to make the right decisions, as you correctly said, but sometimes those decisions may look like the wrong ones at the time.

As @rigsby pointed out earlier, I find it unlikely that we’ll be getting anymore signings in before January. We literally cannot afford to buy our way out of trouble, and will have to make do with what we’ve got.

That might just seal our relegation fate, but if it means we can (just about) afford our bills, then that is the right decision.

 

[southend_aussies]

This

We won't get wound up. We won't pay all the bill. We will be back here in a month or so.

HMRC won't push to liquidate a business if it can be shown that the potential to clear the debt is there. They have a moral responsibility to keep people in work. If the creditor was anyone else, that would be very different.

The really annoying thing is that continuing to be in these circumstances significantly reduces how the club can operate in the transfer market or when handing out contracts. Given a choice, would you work for a business that gives all the signs of living hand to mouth when other, better, options exist.

So the saga goes on, the manager remains stymied, the club continues to spiral and there is no reasonable chance of the man in the middle leaving.

Last year we all said, pretty much to a person, that Ron had to make the right decisions or we would plummet into the National League. I think it's fair to say every major decision made since Phil Brown leaving has been wrong (even if PB leaving wasn't wrong), and yes, I do say that with a lot of hindsight.

This is my thinking. And the more I think, the more it might not be so bad to end and start again. Yep, it would be bloody painful but the other way just sees us tumbling down the ladder and pile further into debt.

 

[Leigh_Seasider]

Good post.

I just wanted to expand on one part too. We all want Ron to make the right decisions, as you correctly said, but sometimes those decisions may look like the wrong ones at the time.

As @rigsby pointed out earlier, I find it unlikely that we’ll be getting anymore signings in before January. We literally cannot afford to buy our way out of trouble, and will have to made some with what we’ve got.

That might just seal our relegation fate, but if it means we can (just about) afford our bills, then that is the right decision.

This season is about survival and clearing the decks. We’re hopefully building a team that can get promoted from the National League. If we stay up it’ll be a bonus. MM’s coaching skills will be tested for sure and he’ll no doubt relish the challenge. Tomorrow will pass, the can will be kicked down the road, meantime we can hopefully get a much needed 3 points tonight and get this lot of players believing a bit. We can not afford players to come in of the required calibre, simple as.

 

[Jai]

Good post.

I just wanted to expand on one part too. We all want Ron to make the right decisions, as you correctly said, but sometimes those decisions may look like the wrong ones at the time.

As @rigsby pointed out earlier, I find it unlikely that we’ll be getting anymore signings in before January. We literally cannot afford to buy our way out of trouble, and will have to made some with what we’ve got.

That might just seal our relegation fate, but if it means we can (just about) afford our bills, then that is the right decision.

And of course we are far from the only club facing a difficult few months. As the squeeze goes on we may see other clubs having to take drastic action ie laying off a lot of professionals and operating with more younger players etc. There may even be circumstances that cut off the prospect of relegation, although I don't think this will be the case.

As a natural pessimist, I definitely think as things stand we are going down with absolute bells on. However, these are unprecedented times, and there is a long way to go not just in terms of games, but in terms of how the pandemic may well shape our division.

 

[Prawn]

Am I right in thinking that we’re paying off last year's debt?

If so this year our tax bill wouldn’t be as high as last years. Virtually no crowds so no tax to pay on ticket sales, no match day employees, no food or drinks for the concession. Along with the lower wages bill, wouldn’t we be better off if there were no crowds until the new year?

I know we do generate a lot of our income from gate receipts but there are still those people that do purchase their match passes for iFollow which would balance out the gate receipts?

So, if we can start getting results to go our way and we’re still in touch once the HMRC has even been paid in full. We could be in a lot better position.

 

[GBJ]

And of course we are far from the only club facing a difficult few months. As the squeeze goes on we may see other clubs having to take drastic action ie laying off a lot of professionals and operating with more younger players etc. There may even be circumstances that cut off the prospect of relegation, although I don't think this will be the case.

As a natural pessimist, I definitely think as things stand we are going down with absolute bells on. However, these are unprecedented times, and there is a long way to go not just in terms of games, but in terms of how the pandemic may well shape our division.

I can’t believe teams like Bolton will be sitting comfortably right now. Their money men will have to have deep pockets to sustain their spending.

It’s ironic really, for the first time in a long time, our wage budget is significantly smaller than most teams, and that may just be the thing that keeps our heads above water long enough to help us survive.

 

[Barry.C]

Will they be aware of Rons public statements saying the debt will be fully cleared and paid by his cash rich holding Company and not by the club, or EFL monies, transfers etc, Lloyds season ticket money

P.s. I have emailed steven.gibbon@justice.gov.uk to book my seat for the hearing, well Zoom spot

 

[Barry.C]

if we are brought to yet another appalling future hearing and on going embargo because of part payment, its all down to one person and no flim flamming can get away from that or excuse it. I trust Ron will have the guts to stand up and take proper responsibility and not keep laying the blame elsewhere.

This is not just a Covid event it is a Ron event that has been going on for years, albeit made less easy and worsened by Sars

Full sack cloth and ashes would be needed this time Ron

 

[Barry.C]

Just had a reply for the very helpful Mr Steven Gibbon ( see above ) that the meeting will actually be by SKYPE , not Zoom. He has sent me the necessary link. I think you have to apply individually .

 

[Leo210856]

I listened in last time and Macclesfield were a right old mess, basically the judge had run out of patience as in none of their previous hearings had they paid anything. With ours, it was all over in an instant - Ron had partially paid and HMRC asked for the extension until tomorrow so that he could pay the rest and fill out the paperwork. Obviously if nothing has happened since, we might be in a bit more difficulty tomorrow, but my guess is something will be paid they'll say that we haven't received the prop up funding from EFL/Premier League yet and the balance will be paid when we do and we'll get another couple of months to pay. Certainly not expecting it to be resolved tomorrow one way or the other...

If I were a betting man then there would be no way that I would put even a £1 on the WUO not being executed ktomorrow.
Some talk about HMRCs moral obligation to keep people in work others that a payment on account will be agreed but all of this ignores some simple facts.

Like has the debt to HMRC grown since this order was issued ?

Are the club able to even pay current wages let alone eat into arrears

What was the conditions verbally agreed prior to the last hearing between HMRC and Ron

HMRC of course will be wanting to get as much paid as possible but if all that is happening is that current deductions are being used to pay historical debts then HMRC will almost certainly take the view that this isn’t business rescue this is about then having to deploy far too much resource on a delinquent business who simply put are taking the Mick.

 

[euroshrimper]

If I were a betting man then there would be no way that I would put even a £1 on the WUO not being executed ktomorrow.
Some talk about HMRCs moral obligation to keep people in work others that a payment on account will be agreed but all of this ignores some simple facts.

Like has the debt to HMRC grown since this order was issued ?

Are the club able to even pay current wages let alone eat into arrears

What was the conditions verbally agreed prior to the last hearing between HMRC and Ron

HMRC of course will be wanting to get as much paid as possible but if all that is happening is that current deductions are being used to pay historical debts then HMRC will almost certainly take the view that this isn’t business rescue this is about then having to deploy far too much resource on a delinquent business who simply put are taking the Mick.

I agree Leo as my experience in running a buisness for 18 years and always paying our taxes on time is that if you do get into difficulties as we did on one occasion they "do not take prisoners" which is why we learnt very quickly the last person you want to take on or antagonize is the tax man, hence I have never understood our Chairmans stance with them. I hope seriously things have changed and they are perhaps a lot more sympathetic these days !