Do we just have to accept we're stuck with Ron Martin now?

[ElstreeBlue]

I've posted something about this on another thread, but I fear it may get lost so think it needs a thread of its own.

I'm concerned that suddenly yet another PR masterstroke - the likes of which we've seen many times before - has occurred and some people think again that everything's rosy and there's nothing else that we can do. We just have to accept what Ron Martin is doing to our club.

As many have said, this just doesn't feel the same club anymore. The joy of being a fan in the Tilly era has gone. I can't get behind the people in charge (and by that I mean the chairman, chief executive and director of football) and the way they have treated our players and manager.

Is there anything we can do? Absolutely. Don't give up. The club's future is worth fighting for. Don't just accept that we're stuck with Martin and that's the only alternative.

The consortium is a viable option. There are three possibilities, but only two are realistic.

1 The consortium made two different offers to Ron Martin. One in particular was a very good offer to walk away with lots of money. He didn't want to do a deal. They still await Martin's contact, but it's up to him if he wants to do a deal as long as he is majority shareholder.

2 They could do a deal with Sainsbury's. The consortium's finances are in better shape than Martin's, they can get the stadium built quicker, and they would be able to ensure the club is run properly with a proper team paid on time, etc. Sainsbury's ultimately have a control over the shares and can control what Martin does if they want to. Pressure from the fans would help to achieve that.

3 If the club goes into administration, the consortium would be willing to pick it up out of administration.

As I see it, 1 is extremely unlikely because of a certain person's stance. 2 would be the best option. 3 would not be a disaster as the club could continue. Worst scenario is if the club goes into liquidation.

However, to achieve 2, the fans need to support it. Show you're not happy with Martin. Write to Sainsbury's. Let's tell the national media what we want. Let's force the issue on Sainsbury's agenda. Don't just sit back and accept the lot that has been dealt out to us if you don't like it!

The club is still nowhere near out of the woods and anyone believing all is now suddenly rosy is sadly mistaken - despite another great PR job in the last couple of days, the likes of which we've seen this many times before and yet some people still don't get it. eg Did the Webb PR masterstroke work and ensure the club didn't go down? Of course not, because Webb was only ever a distraction to stop the fury over Brush and he soon didn't stick around when he saw what was happening at the club. And the treatment of the players, embargo, etc was after another Sainsbury's cash injection to Martin. So why would anyone be willing to believe it will somehow be different now?

The alternatives include trying to put pressure on Sainsbury's to effect a change of control so that:
(a) we get someone else in to run the club who can run it sustainably in the long-term, but also so that we can have a proper team to watch this season and with Tilly there;
(b) the new stadium gets built (good news for everyone).

We can still force a change by fans' pressure and get a change of control. That can only be achieved, though, if that's what the fans want. If the fans are happy with what we've got at the moment, that's what we'll end up with.

Maybe some people feel that Martin's obviously been managing fine and the upwards spiral that we've been witnessing in the last few months has been a joy to watch, and that these are truly great times to watch and support SUFC. Not only that, but things will be getting better with him in charge. I'm afraid I have to disagree with that opinion, though.

The questions are: do you like what's been going on? do you want a change of ownership? do you want to help bring it about? Or do you just want to sit back and watch more of the same like last season (assuming we have a team to play this season)?

 

[A Century United]

Just to be clear on the consortium's stance:

2 Do a deal with Sainsbury's. The consortium's finances are in better shape than Martin's, they can get the stadium built quicker, and they would be able to ensure the club is run properly with a proper team paid on time, etc. Sainsbury's ultimately have a control over the shares and can control what Martin does if they want to. Pressure from the fans would help to achieve that.

This is a serious question - how will you do a deal with Sainsbury's? Even with all the money they have pumped into the Ron Martin Dream, they couldn't just take over when he still owns large parts of the jigsaw. Ownership of SUFC shares doesn't translate into ownership of any real estate. Yes, they could block the move and "starve him out", but:

1. Wouldn't that ultimately drive SUFC into administration, with no guarantee even then that Sainsbury's could get enough of the pieces to finish the puzzle?

2. With all of the legal shenanigans that would then take place, how could the Consortium guarantee that the Stadium would then get built quicker?

 

[ElstreeBlue]

How would the consortium get the stadium built quicker?

(a) because they have the funding in place to start building the new stadium
(b) because (as I understand it) they have control over a crucial bit of land that Sainsbury's would want

 

[number11]

Nice write up ES.

My concern, as you will know from other threads, is that at the moment there is little by way of alternative options. Sainsbury's involvement offers some comfort in whatever scenario, but the consortium concerns me. They seem to be basing their appeal on the fact that they are not Ron Martin, but have not really CLEARLY set out their intentions for SUFC.

If they had and those intentions were pure and viruous then fans would be happy to get behind the consortium. Indeed the refusal to make a bid shows to me that they are either playing macho property developer games, or would actually be happier with scenario 2) and 3) as they get a better bargain. Unfortunately, to me it just seems like it would be another set of ruthless property developers taking over and trying to make a buck on the back of Ron's leg work. Until there is someone about who is going to be looking out for SUFC's interests (and not their own) then we are stuck between a rock and a hard place......

 

[Mick]

I've posted something about this on another thread, but I fear it may get lost so think it needs a thread of its own.

I'm concerned that suddenly yet another PR masterstroke - the likes of which we've seen many times before - has occurred and some people think again that everything's rosy and there's nothing else that we can do. We just have to accept what Ron Martin is doing to our club.

As many have said, this just doesn't feel the same club anymore. The joy of being a fan in the Tilly era has gone. I can't get behind the people in charge (and by that I mean the chairman, chief executive and director of football) and the way they have treated our players and manager.

Is there anything we can do? Absolutely. Don't give up. The club's future is worth fighting for. Don't just accept that we're stuck with Martin and that's the only alternative.

The consortium is a viable option. There are three possibilities, but only two are realistic.

1 The consortium made two different offers to Ron Martin. One in particular was a very good offer to walk away with lots of money. He didn't want to do a deal. They still await Martin's contact, but it's up to him if he wants to do a deal as long as he is majority shareholder.

2 They could do a deal with Sainsbury's. The consortium's finances are in better shape than Martin's, they can get the stadium built quicker, and they would be able to ensure the club is run properly with a proper team paid on time, etc. Sainsbury's ultimately have a control over the shares and can control what Martin does if they want to. Pressure from the fans would help to achieve that.

3 If the club goes into administration, the consortium would be willing to pick it up out of administration.

As I see it, 1 is extremely unlikely because of a certain person's stance. 2 would be the best option. 3 would not be a disaster as the club could continue. Worst scenario is if the club goes into liquidation.

However, to achieve 2, the fans need to support it. Show you're not happy with Martin. Write to Sainsbury's. Let's tell the national media what we want. Let's force the issue on Sainsbury's agenda. Don't just sit back and accept the lot that has been dealt out to us if you don't like it!

The club is still nowhere near out of the woods and anyone believing all is now suddenly rosy is sadly mistaken - despite another great PR job in the last couple of days, the likes of which we've seen this many times before and yet some people still don't get it. eg Did the Webb PR masterstroke work and ensure the club didn't go down? Of course not, because Webb was only ever a distraction to stop the fury over Brush and he soon didn't stick around when he saw what was happening at the club. And the treatment of the players, embargo, etc was after another Sainsbury's cash injection to Martin. So why would anyone be willing to believe it will somehow be different now?

The alternatives include trying to put pressure on Sainsbury's to effect a change of control so that:
(a) we get someone else in to run the club who can run it sustainably in the long-term, but also so that we can have a proper team to watch this season and with Tilly there;
(b) the new stadium gets built (good news for everyone).

We can still force a change by fans' pressure and get a change of control. That can only be achieved, though, if that's what the fans want. If the fans are happy with what we've got at the moment, that's what we'll end up with.

Maybe some people feel that Martin's obviously been managing fine and the upwards spiral that we've been witnessing in the last few months has been a joy to watch, and that these are truly great times to watch and support SUFC. Not only that, but things will be getting better with him in charge. I'm afraid I have to disagree with that opinion, though.

The questions are: do you like what's been going on? do you want a change of ownership? do you want to help bring it about? Or do you just want to sit back and watch more of the same like last season (assuming we have a team to play this season)?

Lest Elstree's views are marginalised as merely the continued ramblings of someone with a vested interest in the consortium, I would add that anyone who gets behind Martin now, simply because he has employed an out of work manager desperate to get back into the game, and forgets the scandalous way he has conducted matters of late, deserves everything they get. Get behind whatever team we manage to cobble together by all means, but don't forget what has happened and, more importantly, how it happened.

 

[ElstreeBlue]

This is a serious question - how will you do a deal with Sainsbury's? Even with all the money they have pumped into the Ron Martin Dream, they couldn't just take over when he still owns large parts of the jigsaw. Ownership of SUFC shares doesn't translate into ownership of any real estate. Yes, they could block the move and "starve him out", but:

1. Wouldn't that ultimately drive SUFC into administration, with no guarantee even then that Sainsbury's could get enough of the pieces to finish the puzzle?

2. With all of the legal shenanigans that would then take place, how could the Consortium guarantee that the Stadium would then get built quicker?

Serious answer:

With all of the money that Sainsbury's has pumped in, I still can't see the stadium getting built (unless you think it really is finally going to start and be completed within 2 years from now).

Sainsbury's controls the shares. If they want the club to move quicker so they can get their stadium quicker AND the club to be run properly so that it has a proper team that is paid on time every month, then they can exercise their rights over the shares and bring about a change of control. Administration is certainly not the only result (although I personally think it might be the best option for SUFC, even if not for Ron Martin).

If Ron Martin loses control over SUFC, then everything else would fall into place. He has a pack of cards that depends on his ownership of the club.

 

[ElstreeBlue]

Nice write up ES.

My concern, as you will know from other threads, is that at the moment there is little by way of alternative options. Sainsbury's involvement offers some comfort in whatever scenario, but the consortium concerns me. They seem to be basing their appeal on the fact that they are not Ron Martin, but have not really CLEARLY set out their intentions for SUFC.

If they had and those intentions were pure and viruous then fans would be happy to get behind the consortium. Indeed the refusal to make a bid shows to me that they are either playing macho property developer games, or would actually be happier with scenario 2) and 3) as they get a better bargain. Unfortunately, to me it just seems like it would be another set of ruthless property developers taking over and trying to make a buck on the back of Ron's leg work. Until there is someone about who is going to be looking out for SUFC's interests (and not their own) then we are stuck between a rock and a hard place......

Sorry - what bid are they meant to make? They already made one. Ron Martin would have walked away with a high seven figure or eight figure sum if he accepted it. But he flatly refused. What should they do - offer a new bid of £100m?

 

[palexander]

Elstree, we still dont have any idea of HOW the consortium are going to do what they promise though do we? thats the hard thing looking in from the outside - its ok for you as you seem to be privvy to more info on this than most.

They've already said they arent going to 'pump millions in' - so it sounds like they are just going to keep us bubbling along to reach that pot of gold themselves.

Also for me, the decision to play the Tilson trump card is a cheap PR trick in itself. From a footballing point of view, I dont want Steve Tilson back, so where does that leave my alligience? I align myself with Southend United, Paul Sturrock, Tom Widdrington and whatever rag-tag-bunch of a squad they can pull together.

Until more information is forthcoming, I dont see how anyone can make an informed decision, apart from championing "its not Martin", which isnt really helpful.

 

[ElstreeBlue]

Elstree, we still dont have any idea of HOW the consortium are going to do what they promise though do we? thats the hard thing looking in from the outside - its ok for you as you seem to be privvy to more info on this than most.

They've already said they arent going to 'pump millions in' - so it sounds like they are just going to keep us bubbling along to reach that pot of gold themselves.

Also for me, the decision to play the Tilson trump card is a cheap PR trick in itself. From a footballing point of view, I dont want Steve Tilson back, so where does that leave my alligience? I align myself with Southend United, Paul Sturrock, Tom Widdrington and whatever rag-tag-bunch of a squad they can pull together.

Until more information is forthcoming, I dont see how anyone can make an informed decision, apart from championing "its not Martin", which isnt really helpful.

It's not just a cheap PR trick. It is great PR, I agree with you. It's because it's what they want to see happen if they take over. There's a difference between a PR stunt that you don't believe in and promoting your most popular ideals.

 

[Firestorm]

No we are not stuck with RM now, if we were able to put something together, a consortium maybe, which had enough financial backing to persuade him to sell up, as well as enough financial clout to progress the club in the manner we all want as well as securing a ground. We could approach him and get him out.
Sure it would be getting him out on his terms and he may appear to have made some money out of it but he would be out . Until then I suppose we are stuck with him especially if our only plan B seems to be relying on someone else to sit back, poke the baying pack with sticks and hope that he fails, falls into administration then picki up the scraps on the cheap with a triumphalist "I told you so" .

 

[ElstreeBlue]

Do you care to share what was said or your views on it? Why are they not approaching Ron now to make him an offer? (Is it to get themselves a better bargain?). What are their plans regarding ownership of the new stadium / rent payable by SUFC? Revenue generated at the new stadium?

Because they made two offers. One was a particularly good one that would have seen Ron walk away with a good seven figure or eight figure sum. Yet he flatly refused. Ron Martin knows where they are if he changes his mind. But if the seller won't sell, you have to look at other ways. Barring offering him £100m, what on earth are they supposed to do?!

 

[number11]

Sorry - what bid are they meant to make? They already made one. Ron Martin would have walked away with a high seven figure or eight figure sum if he accepted it. But he flatly refused. What should they do - offer a new bid of £100m?

When was the bid made? Has much happened since then? Do the consortium want to help SUFC?

If answers are yes, then I'm surprised they have not made a new bid. If they know they will get it at a knockdown price if things go tits up for Ron and they can pick up a nice bargain from the administrator, then that is entirely fair enough.....they have not got filthy rich paying over the odds for things....but it just meansI think fans have to distinguish between someone doing something for the interest of Southend and something for their own interests.

 

[ElstreeBlue]

No we are not stuck with RM now, if we were able to put something together, a consortium maybe, which had enough financial backing to persuade him to sell up, as well as enough financial clout to progress the club in the manner we all want as well as securing a ground. We could approach him and get him out.
Sure it would be getting him out on his terms and he may appear to have made some money out of it but he would be out . Until then I suppose we are stuck with him especially if our only plan B seems to be relying on someone else to sit back, poke the baying pack with sticks and hope that he fails, falls into administration then picki up the scraps on the cheap with a triumphalist "I told you so" .

As I've said elsewhere, the consortium made Ron Martin a very good offer to walk away with a good seven or eight figure sum, but he flatly refused. They're not prepared to offer ridiculous sums of money.

There are alternatives to force him out, though. The fans can play a key part by making their views clear and putting pressure on Sainsbury's. It's up to the fans if that's what they want.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Lest Elstree's views are marginalised as merely the continued ramblings of someone with a vested interest in the consortium, I would add that anyone who gets behind Martin now, simply because he has employed an out of work manager desperate to get back into the game, and forgets the scandalous way he has conducted matters of late, deserves everything they get. Get behind whatever team we manage to cobble together by all means, but don't forget what has happened and, more importantly, how it happened.

Yes I agree with you, and as ever I am more than happy to support the team on the pitch after all we've had more lean years than good in my time as a Blues supporter. And IMO the team deserve our support.

What concerns me about the Consortium is how it will work. It's finally been acknowledged that Mark Rubin is at the head (something which has been apparent to some of us since they first came to light). However we are told there are 12 in the Consortium all initially willing to fork out 100k apiece in order to takeover at Roots Hall. Now I am more than happy for change if it's beneficial to the club overall and probably shoves Ron Martin out on his ear. What I am concerned about is the "food chain" effect. 12 businessmen didn't become millionaires or wealthy or successful in business by being number two let alone number twelve. Or as is more likely they want the development side of Fossets Farm in order to boost their pension fund, bit like RM really.

I am genuinely concerned about this as I don't see how a club of our size can sustain 12 directors. I am happy to believe that they are and do genuinely have the interests of the club at heart but am willing to wager their overall motives may not be so altruistic.

 

[number11]

Because they made two offers. One was a particularly good one that would have seen Ron walk away with a good seven figure or eight figure sum. Yet he flatly refused. Ron Martin knows where they are if he changes his mind. But if the seller won't sell, you have to look at other ways. Barring offering him £100m, what on earth are they supposed to do?!

ES, I think we are having the same discussion across 2 threads!

When was the bid made? Has much happened since then? Do the consortium want to help SUFC?

If answers are yes, then I'm surprised they have not made a new bid. If they know they will get it at a knockdown price if things go tits up for Ron and they can pick up a nice bargain from the administrator, then that is entirely fair enough.....they have not got filthy rich paying over the odds for things....but it just means I think fans have to distinguish between someone doing something for the interest of Southend and something for their own interests. If having a consortium who's interests lie in lining their own pockets is our best bet, then so be it, but at least fans would be leaping from the frying pan with their eyes open.

 

[Firestorm]

As I've said elsewhere, the consortium made Ron Martin a very good offer to walk away with a good seven or eight figure sum, but he flatly refused. They're not prepared to offer ridiculous sums of money.

There are alternatives to force him out, though. The fans can play a key part by making their views clear and putting pressure on Sainsbury's. It's up to the fans if that's what they want.

They made one offer, he flatly refused, Now I have not done a lot of bartering / negotiating but I do know that the rules are generally that the first offer is stupidly low and is usually rejected....

Now unless RM is hanging on for stupid money (ie the 100M EB flippantly mentioned earlier in the thread) how do we know that he would only part with everything for "ridiculous sums of money" .

BTW how would we react if RM went public with a statement that the consortium "only made a ridiculously low offer" , I think the general comments on here would be along the lines of go back with a counter, negotiate.

 

[Berrichonne shrimper]

But if my maths is half as good as my looks then surely ron needs to rake in over 22 mil to get his companys out of the poo so a offer of blah blah is no good unless its more then 22 mil,but good luck anyway e b.

 

[TTS]

I still cant get comfortable enough with a consortium controlling a Club. Yes they may all be fans, with independant wealth, but we then need 5/6 ego's to all agree to every future decision made, not sure how this would work too be honest.

Also, we talk of PR and Spin, but did the consortium not do that when they invited the Echo to be there when the original envelope was delivered, this surely is spin as well is it not ?

Just because the consortium have money and are fans still for me does not warrant that we need throw our hat into the ring and support. Any alternative will always say things to win the fans over, I could come on here, promise the world to win support, gain control and do nothing any where near what I 'promised'.

As someone said, saying that we will reinstate Tilly if we won the Club, is this not spin and PR as well. Also, whilst I love Tilly and have enjoyed the Tilly era, I do recall over the past 24 months people showing concern at Tillys tactics and player choices. Sometimes a change is required, no matter how heartbreaking it is.

I am no anti the consortium nor am I pro it, but I still have concerns about what they can and will be able to deliver. 7 years ago Martin was a hero for saving the Club from Jobson, appointing Tilly , and now is hated, we need to be careful not see the same thing happen.

In an ideal world, Ron will pay the debts, Sturrock will sign players and the ground will be built and we will have some stability, we have endured so much over the past 12 months, we need to be careful not to rely on a knee jerk reaction, we need to take a step back and look at EVERYTHING !

But at the end of the day, we MUST, MUST, support Sturrock and Tommy and the new players at the first game, because at the end the day we are supporters of footballers, not all wanna be Chairman !!

 

[A Century United]

Serious answer:

With all of the money that Sainsbury's has pumped in, I still can't see the stadium getting built (unless you think it really is finally going to start and be completed within 2 years from now).

But Sainsbury's are no fools. I can't believe that they would be backig RM to the extent that they are unless they were firmly convinced that they were going to get their Shiny New Mega-store.

Sainsbury's controls the shares. If they want the club to move quicker so they can get their stadium quicker AND the club to be run properly so that it has a proper team that is paid on time every month, then they can exercise their rights over the shares and bring about a change of control.

As I have said before, control of the club is not control of the project. Surely any such change of control will inevitably lead to protracted legal fights and a huge delay in building the stadium.

Administration is certainly not the only result (although I personally think it might be the best option for SUFC, even if not for Ron Martin).

Sorry, but I find it very difficult to believe that administration would benefit anyone but perhaps the consortium.

If Ron Martin loses control over SUFC, then everything else would fall into place. He has a pack of cards that depends on his ownership of the club.

And if he loses the club card, he still holds most of the property cards. Saying "Everything else would fall into place" is treating us like children - it is soothing and sounds impressive without explaining one single thing.

If you want to convince me of the Consortium's case, you will need a lot of cold hard facts, not least just exactly what their intentions are for SUFC once the Stadium is built.

 

[Cricko]

Didn't I read somewhere that the Consortium wanted to hand over SUFC to the fan's at some stage?