Do we just need a completely clean slate?

[Medway Blue]

As the title says.

We have an entrenched and bordering on cancerous losing mentality at this football club. I think the club and at least 90% of the players just need a fresh start.

Regardless of what happens, do we just need a completely clean slate? How ruthless should it be? Should even those who have contracts for next season potentially be on the chopping block? Maybe also those who have perhaps performed ok this season individually and in isolation?

Thing is, that depth of rebuild needs a lot of forward planning which should have started 3 months ago, but I suspect it hasn't been.

 

[Bromley Blue]

Can’t see the point in getting rid of some of our better players just coz they were part of a relegated side. It’s a moot point anyway coz anyone that’s of any value will fight tooth and nail to stay in the league at another club anyway. We’ll be stuck with any that are under contract that no one wants.

 

[Wingnut]

More likely a relegation release clause

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

Unfortunately it comes from the top (Ron) si until that changes and he sells up we’ll have the same problems on and off the pitch.

 

[londonblue]

As it happens I think the issue is being addressed, and that is what Ron was referring to when he was talking about a culture change at the club.

We're in a financial mess, and Ron is actually addressing that by reducing the budget and trying to ensure we live within our means. Unfortunately that, combined with the poor reputation the club has at the moment, is leading to no-one wanting to come here, and leaving MM with the dregs to choose from.

I don't like the idea of going down because it might not be as easy to come back up as people would expect. I believe it would impact the finances adversely too. Staying up isn't vital, but it would be a huge blow to go down.

Either way, I don't think we need a clean slate because I actually agree with Ron (I can't believe I'm saying this) that the fundamentals are now in place. It's just going to take time to sort it all out, and is probably a bigger job than Ron envisaged.

At some point all the ex-managers will be paid off which will allow the manager a bigger budget. The trick, though, is to not get rid of this manager otherwise we're back to square one. MM isn't faultless, but most of the issue this season can be traced back to the shambolic way he was recruited, and how long it took. The important thing for me is to let him learn from his mistakes and let us be the beneficiaries in the same way we have suffered...

 

[FarmdogSUFC]

I was actually going to start a similar thread to this. Lets exclude the owner and staff from this and solely focus on the players.

We're arguably 4 - 5 players off being a decent side at this level. It doesn't take a lot, a little spark, a bit of quality, and the confidence starts to flow. Some of the teams we've played against this season have been poor if we're honest, yet some of these are right up there. Akinde would have made a world of difference to this side for example. Confidence is so key in football.

Having said all that, we have some aging players and loanees that will go back anyway so we will need to rebuild anyway.

I'd personally try to keep the below but I should add I wouldn't break the bank for any of them to stay. I've not included a few of the youth players as I don't know enough about them. If the management think they have half a chance then sign them up. I actually think we have a chance of signing Cordner regardless of which division we're in and he's looked alright, Port Vale aside. I'd sign him. There's others I've not included such as Kyp and Klass. I'm guessing if they can't get into this team then their time here is one.

Harry Seaden
Elvis Bwomono
Tom Clifford
Shaun Hobson
John White
Tyler Cordner
Timothy Dieng
Ashley Nathaniel-George
Terrell Egbri
Nathan Ferguson
Simeon Akinola
Matt Rush

Not an amazing spine and probably not too far off what we started with this season, but if we're not under an embargo this time then we should be able to adequately replace the majority.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

@FarmdogSUFC and @londonblue write sense, however my guess is that in the main, the players we might want to keep, will be the very same players (and agents) that will be on the radar for picking up on the cheap from us by L2 (or some L1) clubs.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

As the title says.

We have an entrenched and bordering on cancerous losing mentality at this football club. I think the club and at least 90% of the players just need a fresh start.

Regardless of what happens, do we just need a completely clean slate? How ruthless should it be? Should even those who have contracts for next season potentially be on the chopping block? Maybe also those who have perhaps performed ok this season individually and in isolation?

Thing is, that depth of rebuild needs a lot of forward planning which should have started 3 months ago, but I suspect it hasn't been.

Is the losing mentality amongst the players or amongst the fans?

The players have actually turned the corner. They're now difficult to beat - we've lost one in the last six.

Of the 25 games since the embargo was lifted we've lost 9 times. That compares to losing 16 of the first 20 games.

Since the embargo was lifted we've taken 30 points from 25 games.
I know that's not world beating but compare it to 6 points from the opening 15 matches. Or 19 points from 35 games last season. Or 15 points from the final 20 games of the season before that. That's 30 points from 25 as compared to 40 points from the preceding 70 matches.

Sadly I think this will get lost amongst (a) those looking only at the league position and not at performances; and (b) a chairman who will want to deflect from his failings by scapegoating another manager. The league table is reflective of the terrible start we had after furloughing the players too long, of delaying the appointment of a manager and preventing him from adding to the squad not to mention the short-termism of previous years. Since then we haven't been great but we've been respectable for the first time in over 2 years. What this club desperately now needs is some stability. We can't just keep starting over again. We need to lay foundations and give them time to set. I know this won't be a popular message as people are impatient for change but the damage done can't be fixed overnight.

 

[londonblue]

@FarmdogSUFC and @londonblue write sense, however my guess is that in the main, the players we might want to keep, will be the very same players (and agents) that will be on the radar for picking up on the cheap from us by L2 (or some L1) clubs.

That could well be the case, and if it is then we need the manager to be given the ability to replace them with the players he wants, not the players left behind after everyone else has taken their turn.

 

[LBBlue]

Is the losing mentality amongst the players or amongst the fans?

The players have actually turned the corner. They're now difficult to beat - we've lost one in the last six.

Of the 25 games since the embargo was lifted we've lost 9 times. That compares to losing 16 of the first 20 games.

Since the embargo was lifted we've taken 30 points from 25 games.
I know that's not world beating but compare it to 6 points from the opening 15 matches. Or 19 points from 35 games last season. Or 15 points from the final 20 games of the season before that. That's 30 points from 25 as compared to 40 points from the preceding 70 matches.

Sadly I think this will get lost amongst (a) those looking only at the league position and not at performances; and (b) a chairman who will want to deflect from his failings by scapegoating another manager. The league table is reflective of the terrible start we had after furloughing the players too long, of delaying the appointment of a manager and preventing him from adding to the squad not to mention the short-termism of previous years. Since then we haven't been great but we've been respectable for the first time in over 2 years. What this club desperately now needs is some stability. We can't just keep starting over again. We need to lay foundations and give them time to set. I know this won't be a popular message as people are impatient for change but the damage done can't be fixed overnight.

I prefer my stats which I put on another thread:

Before the transfer window opened in January we had played 20 games and got 16 points from 4 wins and 4 draws.

Since the start of January when the transfer window opened, we have played another 20 games and got 20 more points 4 wins and 8 draws. So our improvement has delivered 4 more points from 20 games.

We were unbeaten against five of the six teams we still have to play.

Stats can be manipulated to fit an argument.

We will need and get a clean slate- there are very few players under contract past the end of the season.

Our first signing should be an exorcist to get rid of the curse that has beset us.

Then we should change the base colour of the strip from dark dismal navy blue to something a lot brighter.

 

[kentblues]

The thing is we don't have a losing mentality. If anything we have a "not losing" mentality now (how many have we lost in the last 10?).

The problem all comes back to the experiment of playing without any forwards. Fix the goals for column, or even half fix it, then you have a mid table L2 side at worst.

So why throw the baby out with the bath water? It should be possible to remedy the glaring issue whilst retaining some consistency in terms of the squad. Easier in L2. Is their a salary cap in the National League or did that go the say way as those in the EFL (resulting from PFA challenge). If there is a cap what is the transitional arrangement? Important factors. If under contract players are counted at the NL average wage then that is a consideration. Maybe the best opportunity to get back out is that first season so best not treat it as a rebuilding season. Anyway hopefully we are addressing the issue in L2 next season.

 

[Grayson]

I prefer my stats which I put on another thread:

Before the transfer window opened in January we had played 20 games and got 16 points from 4 wins and 4 draws.

Since the start of January when the transfer window opened, we have played another 20 games and got 20 more points 4 wins and 8 draws. So our improvement has delivered 4 more points from 20 games.

We were unbeaten against five of the six teams we still have to play.

Stats can be manipulated to fit an argument.

Your stat is manipulated to fit an argument as you used an arbitrary cut point.

Lifting the transfer embargo is not an arbitrary cut point but in fact the only relevant one, given MM had both hands tied before that point.

 

[Murkey_Mouse]

I would keep the 11 players, if we go down, then add 8 more new players in key area, have an good pre season, get fitter and stronger and be ready for Augs in either division.

In non league football, Essex have an hot bed of talent, that is something we should explore to get new talents in, especially these players would love to play for their local side & being full time in front of big crowds will attract them.

 

[Strykr]

Stick a natural goalscorer in this squad and all the pressure goes away.

As tempting as it is to want a clean slate, this will be the 2nd or 3rd season in a row we've in the main been thinking that, has to stop sometime.

 

[SeaSideDoughnut]

Goals are our issue and that will mostly likely continue.

It's a shame Conference North and South seasoned were terminated. As it stood Rush scored 1 in 2. It's the sort of stat a striker wants - just consistently. If Rush had scored 5 goals in 10 games, something like that it would go a long looking at the players we might have show up at the next pre-season.

 

[NZamba Legend]

In non league football, Essex have an hot bed of talent, that is something we should explore to get new talents in, especially these players would love to play for their local side & being full time in front of big crowds will attract them.

100% this. Plus cream off decent prospects from the London and East Anglia clubs. Sell em on for profit. The football ecology in London/ Essex is incredibly rich.

 

[LBBlue]

Your stat is manipulated to fit an argument as you used an arbitrary cut point.

Lifting the transfer embargo is not an arbitrary cut point but in fact the only relevant one, given MM had both hands tied before that point.

My cut point was not arbitrary - it was at the start of the January transfer window when the squad could be strengthened.

Alternatively, I would have liked to have taken 23 games - after we should have played everyone once, however that did not occur until the 27th game in February at Newport because of the postponement, instead of 9th January if there had been no postponements

Looking at it that way means we took 22 points from the first round of 23 games against everyone else. So far we have taken 14 points from 17 reverse fixtures with 6 to play, which means we must take 8 more points just to match the points from the first round of fixtures.

Either way I don’t see that as a tangible improvement in the second half of the season.

You could also argue that his better signings - Olayinka and K Taylor occurred before the embargo was lifted. The main problem was the injury to John White and the lack of an experienced centre back as cover because Richard Taylor and Harry Lennon weren’t up to it. John White started 6 of our wins and Dieng was in his place for the other 2.

Twelve points from those last 6 games might just be enough improvement though because just 8 more will see us relegated.

 

[gatecrasher]

Is the losing mentality amongst the players or amongst the fans?

The players have actually turned the corner. They're now difficult to beat - we've lost one in the last six.

Of the 25 games since the embargo was lifted we've lost 9 times. That compares to losing 16 of the first 20 games.

Since the embargo was lifted we've taken 30 points from 25 games.
I know that's not world beating but compare it to 6 points from the opening 15 matches. Or 19 points from 35 games last season. Or 15 points from the final 20 games of the season before that. That's 30 points from 25 as compared to 40 points from the preceding 70 matches.

Sadly I think this will get lost amongst (a) those looking only at the league position and not at performances; and (b) a chairman who will want to deflect from his failings by scapegoating another manager. The league table is reflective of the terrible start we had after furloughing the players too long, of delaying the appointment of a manager and preventing him from adding to the squad not to mention the short-termism of previous years. Since then we haven't been great but we've been respectable for the first time in over 2 years. What this club desperately now needs is some stability. We can't just keep starting over again. We need to lay foundations and give them time to set. I know this won't be a popular message as people are impatient for change but the damage done can't be fixed overnight.

This post almost made me want to stick with MM...well written

 

[palexander]

100% this. Plus cream off decent prospects from the London and East Anglia clubs. Sell em on for profit. The football ecology in London/ Essex is incredibly rich.

The sort of model that works for Peterborough. Think that limits their ambitions a bit as anyone good they will sell (and I think even McAnthony has said they dont want to - or at least cant afford to, get promoted to the Championship as it costs something like £3-6m just to get the club in a position to be accepted in).

But yea, I'm all for getting good non-league players and trying to be a base for them to showcase their talent and then move them on for big profit. Its amazing more clubs dont do this, surely the risk is pretty small in terms of outlay.

 

[RobM]

"But yea, I'm all for getting good non-league players and trying to be a base for them to showcase their talent and then move them on for big profit. Its amazing more clubs don't do this, surely the risk is pretty small in terms of outlay."

Outlay, yes but we don't want a squad full of untried risks. Aren't clubs limited to squad size anyway?