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Barry.C

Manager⭐⭐
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
4,381
Location
Gillingham
First off Quite an impressive debate has been raging about whether some of our youngsters in the development squad ( Layne, Brown , Williams) should get a shot at first team action for their development and experience and when. Equally strongly some take the view it is in their best interests to remain longer with the Development squad before stepping up? but for how long?

Secondly do we take enough advantage of loaning out youngsters from the Development squad for them to gain experience and see if they can improve and cut the mustard

Lets take a quick look at Oxford . who we all thought we would roll over. Large squad for a start of 32. Amongst their 6 FORWARDS on the books are two 18 year old loanees. both played this season, one scored ( jakubiak) Both younger than Layne and Williams. Tyrone Marsh is also ageing fast at 20 years and scored against us in the league Trophy last year. Three more of their youngsters are out on Loan ( a defender, midfielder and forward ) good balance there, out on loan to Farnborough and Banbury .

So should this not be happening more for our lads with the likes of Bridge, Banton, Farrell et el, or indeed Williams , Layne and Brown, if their nether regions are not even going to warm the first eleven bench any time soon?
 
Play them !

Jack has been a revelation so why not the other untried forwards who may do exactly the same thing.

Coulthirst from the 2 games I have seen does not do a lot and if he stays all season he ain't scoring many,His body language look's as though he doesn't give a damn.
 
i think they should be given a chance, they should be asking PB why they are not getting a look in... they can't be worse than Barnard? I think Corr should stay in the team, he will hit some form eventually and we need his height up front, but i think give at least one of them a go (Layne, Williams & Brown) but they WILL need a tall player up front with them so he can knock the ball down to them. GIVE THEM A GO!
 
I'm afraid I have been unhappy about some of the players we are not using but in saying that I really have little or no idea how the youngsters are progressing. I have been pleased to see Payne and Bentley become genuine prospects and am heartened by what I read about the likes of Ted Smith.

I don't believe I could state a case for starting some of the untried strikers, despite the dream they may be up to it, but by now I would like to have seen Layne at least on the bench with the chance to figure as an alternative to what we already have and has already failed.

Layne is 19. That is not too young for brief appearances. He has experience with Billericay, yes leagues down, but he would have been playing against older guys with a lot of experience. He`was also raved about as a diamond in the making. Maybe PB knows better but why put LB on the bench with no intention of using him, not saying he is not up to it, when an alternative that can do no worse could be given a chance?
 
I'm afraid I have been unhappy about some of the players we are not using but in saying that I really have little or no idea how the youngsters are progressing. I have been pleased to see Payne and Bentley become genuine prospects and am heartened by what I read about the likes of Ted Smith.

I don't believe I could state a case for starting some of the untried strikers, despite the dream they may be up to it, but by now I would like to have seen Layne at least on the bench with the chance to figure as an alternative to what we already have and has already failed.

Layne is 19. That is not too young for brief appearances. He has experience with Billericay, yes leagues down, but he would have been playing against older guys with a lot of experience. He`was also raved about as a diamond in the making. Maybe PB knows better but why put LB on the bench with no intention of using him, not saying he is not up to it, when an alternative that can do no worse could be given a chance?

correct me if im wrong but i think Layne has been on the bench a couple of times, think barnard was too and he come on instead of him... he has got to be better than barnard?
 
From the little I've seen of Layne and Williams, I would say they are both behind Elias Brown. He looks closer to being first team ready, again from the little I've seen of them all (pre-season and a five minute cameo for Williams).

That said, surely the fact that Payne and Bentley are in the team, is proof enough that Williams, Layne & Brown aren't yet ready, as Brown is happy bringing in the younger players, if and when he feels they are ready. He did the same with Leonard too, taking him from a kid squad player, to a first teamer. He has no problem introducing youth to the side, if he thinks they are good enough. I think we all agree making Bentley and Leonard first teamers despite their youth, and his gradual introduction of Jack Payne have all been done well. So why not trust his judgement on the other youth team players he see's perform in training every day, alongiside those he chooses to start.

My tuppance, for what it's worth. Is that no individual players are really the issue. I think indiviually the players are very good for this level, the problem is we don't know how to set them up as a team to benefit from the sum of all parts. The formation seems to suit one or two players, where others are sacrificed. I think Brown needs to pick a formation, and play the best players for that formation, not pick his eleven players, and try and develop a formation around them. We are creating chances, but we don't seem to have a style of play, or a settled game plan. This is what I think needs adressing, then we can decide which players are the best XI.
 
The problem with threads like this is that people will always play the "Brown sees them in training every day and if they were good enough then..." card, but I don't think it's as straight forward as that. Some players are much better trainers than others and the extra pressure and responsibilty during an actual competitive game might actually raise the game of a youngster.

Payne has been brilliant so far this season, but had to wait a long time for his first proper shot in the first team, despite always seeming to do well in the development games. Maybe Brown likes to take his time to decide whether a youngster is prepared mentally to step into the first team, but I would still like to see them given a shot, rather than released after a year with barely a sniff of first team action (which I fear is the way Williams is going).

Agree with what's been said already, in the nicest possible way, could Williams or Layne really be any less impressive than Barnard has been since he rejoined? I'm not convinced. I always think it may be something to do with Phil wanting his money's worth. If we're paying Barnard £1.5k a week and Williams £250 a week, it might influence his decision.
 
Ricky Duncan does a brilliant job & has done for years at our club .... bringing in kids + turning them into 1st team quality players. The big gripe i have is that we allow whoever the manager is to go out + buy in a huge squad of players meaning there is little or no chance these youngsters , many who have been at the club for 7 or 8 years , ever get a proper chance to shine.
Bentley was given a chance, Ferdinand, Moussa ,Kightly , etcetc + look how they progressed.Payne finally gets a game or two and look at him go ! I reallly cant think of any kids we gave a real chance to who let us down. Compare that to the overpaid pro's who come in + sit on the bench week in week out with a tenth of the enthusiasm a youth teamer would do in that position , and probably they cost ten times the salary. For a club that is skint thats ridiculous. Williams,Bridge,Banton etc wont get a chance all season + will probably be cast aside like the stars of previous years like Auger ( funny how we suddenly are short of full backs in our team, should have kept Auger ) ... A club the size of ours should be encouraging our youth teamers that if they train hard + do the right things they will get a chance.
 
The problem with threads like this is that people will always play the "Brown sees them in training every day and if they were good enough then..." card, but I don't think it's as straight forward as that. Some players are much better trainers than others and the extra pressure and responsibilty during an actual competitive game might actually raise the game of a youngster.

I agree strongly with that. There is an aspect of you never no for sure until you give em a go. What about that young Lancashire spinner, came on for England last year in the test, so racked with apprehension struggled to get the ball up the other end Others suddenly thrive, I am not advocating totally sink or swim.
 
Incidentally just seen Jack Bridge hit 2 this afternoon in trial game, 4-5 loss to Daggers. Yet another midfielder triallist Ayo Simon Okusun powered in a header as well. please no more midfielders, Phil, Forwards, Forwards, Forwards
 
I have regretted for some time the absence of a bona fide reserve team league programme. I seem to remember that we abandoned the reserve team league some years ago to save money and I'm not sure if the old South East Counties league exists any more. However, traditionally, the reserve leagues were used to blood the upcoming young players alongside and against experienced professionals who were either out of favour or coming back after injuries or suspensions. In those regular fixtures, it was possible to get a better idea of how the youngsters might fare week on week against physically more robust and experienced professionals. I know there are still reserve team fixtures in public or behind closed doors but I am not sure how effective they are in assessing and developing our younger players. I apologise if my facts are wrong about our current reserve team situation but, living 150 miles away, I have to rely on this forum for information and I haven't seen much in the way of reports on reserve matches.
 
Ricky Duncan does a brilliant job & has done for years at our club .... bringing in kids + turning them into 1st team quality players. The big gripe i have is that we allow whoever the manager is to go out + buy in a huge squad of players meaning there is little or no chance these youngsters , many who have been at the club for 7 or 8 years , ever get a proper chance to shine.
Bentley was given a chance, Ferdinand, Moussa ,Kightly , etcetc + look how they progressed.Payne finally gets a game or two and look at him go ! I reallly cant think of any kids we gave a real chance to who let us down. Compare that to the overpaid pro's who come in + sit on the bench week in week out with a tenth of the enthusiasm a youth teamer would do in that position , and probably they cost ten times the salary. For a club that is skint thats ridiculous. Williams,Bridge,Banton etc wont get a chance all season + will probably be cast aside like the stars of previous years like Auger ( funny how we suddenly are short of full backs in our team, should have kept Auger ) ... A club the size of ours should be encouraging our youth teamers that if they train hard + do the right things they will get a chance.

You've managed to name five youth team prospects that have managed to make a name for themselves in football over the course of 6/7 seasons, albeit here or somewhere else. For the benefit of balance, add in Stuart O'Keefe as well, especially as Payne has only a handful of games and hasn't really proven himself just yet. How many players from those 6/7 years have played in the same youth team and been released, and ended up further down the leagues? 70/100 players? Gone into oblivion. Not every youth team player is good enough to make the grade, which is why you're only able to name a handful that manage to carve out a career. We're not particularly bad at letting talent slip through our fingers either, so it's not as if we're being proven wrong by players going on elsewhere. Kightly being the only real example. For every Bentley that comes through and does well, there's a dozen Woodyard's or Ademeno's that don't. People need to realise that a youth team is about developement of players that have shown talent, and have potential. It's not a team of ready made replacement's.

It's interesting that you mention Auger, as he is a very good example. A player talented on the ball, but seemingly unable to progress because he was unable to develop the other area's of his game. You need more than just raw ability on the ball (and no I don't mean to be young and hungry) to be a footballer, Auger wasn't able to prove he did.
 
Play them !

Jack has been a revelation so why not the other untried forwards who may do exactly the same thing.

Coulthirst from the 2 games I have seen does not do a lot and if he stays all season he ain't scoring many,His body language look's as though he doesn't give a damn.

Jack Payne made 11 league appearances from the bench last season plus 4 cup games. All aged 18 or 19.

This season he has been excellent, particularly against Oxford. The key is though is that he has been eased into the team. He can hardly be described as a revelation either as many people, including Brown, have talked about his potential.

Coulthirst is a similar age but because he has failed to score in his first few games he being written off as useless and lazy. Unlike Layne, Brown and Williams he has though proved he can score at this level (albeit not for us). By your own admission you have only seen him twice but have already written him off.

I have no problem with introducing Layne, Brown, or Williams if they are good enough but it would be very poor management just to play them and hope.

How many games do you think it would take for them to be written off if they did not score straight away?
 
I have regretted for some time the absence of a bona fide reserve team league programme.

Yeah good point , would this weaken development opportunities? What about the other side of the coin then, Loaning players out for experience. My feel is we have also dropped off in doing this but I maybe wrong? Would take a bit of research. Good questions for next meet the peasants meeting? I illustarted that Oxford already have 3 out on loan. Wouldnt this aid development if less Reserve games available??
 
Ricky Duncan does a brilliant job & has done for years at our club .... bringing in kids + turning them into 1st team quality players. The big gripe i have is that we allow whoever the manager is to go out + buy in a huge squad of players meaning there is little or no chance these youngsters , many who have been at the club for 7 or 8 years , ever get a proper chance to shine.
Bentley was given a chance, Ferdinand, Moussa ,Kightly , etcetc + look how they progressed.Payne finally gets a game or two and look at him go ! I reallly cant think of any kids we gave a real chance to who let us down. Compare that to the overpaid pro's who come in + sit on the bench week in week out with a tenth of the enthusiasm a youth teamer would do in that position , and probably they cost ten times the salary. For a club that is skint thats ridiculous. Williams,Bridge,Banton etc wont get a chance all season + will probably be cast aside like the stars of previous years like Auger ( funny how we suddenly are short of full backs in our team, should have kept Auger ) ... A club the size of ours should be encouraging our youth teamers that if they train hard + do the right things they will get a chance.

Alex Woodyard, Harry Crawford, Johnny Herd etc etc were all well short of the necessary standard. They may have tried but they were holes in our side.

I do however think Brown has been reluctant to give the kids a chance. Saturday was Payne's first start and Bentley basically got in the team because Smith was injured, having been dropped for Wembley when Brown first came in.
 
I have regretted for some time the absence of a bona fide reserve team league programme. I seem to remember that we abandoned the reserve team league some years ago to save money and I'm not sure if the old South East Counties league exists any more. However, traditionally, the reserve leagues were used to blood the upcoming young players alongside and against experienced professionals who were either out of favour or coming back after injuries or suspensions. In those regular fixtures, it was possible to get a better idea of how the youngsters might fare week on week against physically more robust and experienced professionals. I know there are still reserve team fixtures in public or behind closed doors but I am not sure how effective they are in assessing and developing our younger players. I apologise if my facts are wrong about our current reserve team situation but, living 150 miles away, I have to rely on this forum for information and I haven't seen much in the way of reports on reserve matches.

This highlights a major problem as far as I am concerned. Any club running a youth team surely needs some sort of stepping stone between youth football and being thrown in to the rigours or fourth division football. I do not know how much the youth set up costs each year but it seems to me that, without a better system to test our youngsters, as they develop, we may as well scrap the youth set up entirely and spend the money on acquiring more senior players who are ready for first team football straight away.

I am sure they may be excellent reasons why a youth team is necessary to our club, but as the years roll by, and our production line seems to have produced just a small number of first team regulars, perhaps it is time for a rethink.
 
Jack Payne has been playing well in development games for some time and involved with the senior side for some time now.

Has Jason Williams or Layne done anything behind closed doors? I havent heard of anything from either of them? We played Daggers today in a development game, Williams apparently led the line well and played wellbut didnt score, has he score in other games? If he cant score in those why will he suddenly be able to do so at a competitive level?

Does a player not have to prove themselves in training and in practice matches to earn a place in the first team squad?

Or are we so desperate we just play kids who haven't proven themselves anywhere just in the wild hope they will be better than what we have?

Sadly as a league two side we dont have the luxury of loaning players out as the only place to do so is the Conference.
 
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