Elvis Bwomono

[FarmdogSUFC]

Some interesting points on here and I think a lot of people are correct in whey they’re saying on both sides.

FWIW I actually side with Elvis on this one

 

[londonblue]

He probably felt he’d earned the right to get the same treatment as Hutchinson and Kelman were afforded in being allowed to leave….

Allowed to leave? Didn't we get fees for them both? They were both under contract. Based on that argument you seem to be saying exactly the opposite, i.e. that Elvis deserved special treatment.

For the record I couldn't say who is at fault here, but my guess is that it's a bit of both. What I'm pointing out is that your argument above makes no sense.

 

[OllieSteph44]

They were young players that were allowed to leave to progress their careers.

Hutchinson’s was all related to appearance fees, Ron confirmed there was no upfront fee at all.

Kelman was a small fee. Less than half what was asked for for Elvis.

Bishop was also allowed to leave for less than half of what was asked for for Elvis.

All players were under contract and we asked for less money from Man Utd for Nathan Bishop, than we did from Leyton Orient for Elvis.

You go figure that one out

 

[FarmdogSUFC]

They were young players that were allowed to leave to progress their careers.

Hutchinson’s was all related to appearance fees, Ron confirmed there was no upfront fee at all.

Kelman was a small fee. Less than half what was asked for for Elvis.

Bishop was also allowed to leave for less than half of what was asked for for Elvis.

All players were under contract and we asked for less money from Man Utd for Nathan Bishop, than we did from Leyton Orient for Elvis.

You go figure that one out

The Bishop deal still makes me laugh I won’t lie

 

[londonblue]

They were young players that were allowed to leave to progress their careers.

Hutchinson’s was all related to appearance fees, Ron confirmed there was no upfront fee at all.

Kelman was a small fee. Less than half what was asked for for Elvis.

Bishop was also allowed to leave for less than half of what was asked for for Elvis.

All players were under contract and we asked for less money from Man Utd for Nathan Bishop, than we did from Leyton Orient for Elvis.

You go figure that one out

So, they were all under contract, and all commanded a fee of some sort, whether it was up front or otherwise...thanks for confirming.

BTW I think the awful EPPP rules would have been used to determine the fee for Bishop so I don't think we would have had much room to negotiate there.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

So, they were all under contract, and all commanded a fee of some sort, whether it was up front or otherwise...thanks for confirming.

BTW I think the awful EPPP rules would have been used to determine the fee for Bishop so I don't think we would have had much room to negotiate there.

Bishop was under contract and we were under no obligation to accept (well, not under EPPP rules; we were effectively obliged to accept because of HMRC rules).

 

[OllieSteph44]

So, they were all under contract, and all commanded a fee of some sort, whether it was up front or otherwise...thanks for confirming.

BTW I think the awful EPPP rules would have been used to determine the fee for Bishop so I don't think we would have had much room to negotiate there.

No you’re incorrect.

There was no fee for Hutchinson.

Bishops was a transfer fee not EPPP rules and if they were used then the same would’ve or should’ve applied for Elvis.

Football clubs get obstinate very quickly when they’re having the P taken…and no doubt that changed Orients attitude to doing business

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

No you’re incorrect.

There was no fee for Hutchinson.

Bishops was a transfer fee not EPPP rules and if they were used then the same would’ve or should’ve applied for Elvis.

Football clubs get obstinate very quickly when they’re having the P taken…and no doubt that changed Orients attitude to doing business

And probably Ron's as well, it cuts both ways....

 

[OllieSteph44]

And probably Ron's as well, it cuts both ways....

Yeah poor ol Ron…..Elvis owed him so much more loyalty than he gave and sticking around for a league 2 season after turning down offers to leave, while Hutchinson, Bishop, Kelman and Humphrey’s all got the benefit of a move. And he really didn’t earn himself the right to choose not to drop onto non league at the end of his official employment at the club….

 

[Medway Blue]

No you’re incorrect.

There was no fee for Hutchinson.

Bishops was a transfer fee not EPPP rules and if they were used then the same would’ve or should’ve applied for Elvis.

Football clubs get obstinate very quickly when they’re having the P taken…and no doubt that changed Orients attitude to doing business

They didn't have to 'do business'. Elvis was out of contract. All they needed to do was sign him and take the risk of being made to pay £100k for him at the tribunal.

 

[londonblue]

No you’re incorrect.

There was no fee for Hutchinson.

Bishops was a transfer fee not EPPP rules and if they were used then the same would’ve or should’ve applied for Elvis.

Football clubs get obstinate very quickly when they’re having the P taken…and no doubt that changed Orients attitude to doing business

Yes there was, it just wasn't up front.

 

[londonblue]

Bishop was under contract and we were under no obligation to accept (well, not under EPPP rules; we were effectively obliged to accept because of HMRC rules).

Your memory is better than mine. What I do remember is that Ron felt he also couldn't stand in his way given that it was Man Ure.

 

[JAL]

Your memory is better than mine. What I do remember is that Ron felt he also couldn't stand in his way given that it was Man Ure.

Yep you would be right, we also most likely have a nice sell on clause added on that will generate us more money should he succeed and move elsewhere.

 

[FarmdogSUFC]

Your memory is better than mine. What I do remember is that Ron felt he also couldn't stand in his way given that it was Man Ure.

Hmmm

 

[OllieSteph44]

Yes there was, it just wasn't up front.

These are called ‘add ons’ and are in no way a fee for a transfer. Hutchinson was allowed to leave for free. In any case the club received no add ons anyway becomes Derby went into admin and so it remains no fee!

Your memory is better than mine. What I do remember is that Ron felt he also couldn't stand in his way given that it was Man Ure.

Oh that Man U? The ones with limited resources that Ron didn’t fancy his chances of bullying?

Yep you would be right, we also most likely have a nice sell on clause added on that will generate us more money should he succeed and move elsewhere.

Agreed. And that’s only right. And I’m sure had negotiations played out a little more openly that could easily have been the case with Elvis also.

 

[OllieSteph44]

Look I’m not going to convince everyone and I’m not prepared to keep repeating myself but….

Just consider this….I mean completely hypothetically of course….

Elvis is 20. He celebrates like a lunatic as his boyhood club survives league 1 relegation on last day of season. Assurances are given that the club wouldn’t be in this position again…..Elvis turns down offers from other clubs to stay loyal in an effort to see his club progress as he has been assured.

The following season he is just 21 as the club struggle again. He’s repeatedly not paid his wages. He’s then left at home with no contact from anyone at the club for 4 months as the season is curtailed and Southend are relegated.

He again turns down offers to leave and is persuaded by the club that the aim is to bounce straight back and that the club would not be on this position again. It’s quite possible, knowing he is out of contract at the end of the season that he is given assurances that if he stays and try’s to help the club back up that he will be allowed to leave at the end of the season. He’s a double player of the season and made a record 4 consecutive player of the month awards.

He’s now 22 and He sees three other highly rated young players leave before the end of August and no one comes in to replace them as the club is now under a transfer embargo due to non payment of Tax. He is again playing without being paid.

As the club tumble towards non league football, Elvis is an ever present and does all he can performance wise to play to the best of his ability knowing that he is out of contract and one silly tackle and injury will see the club toss him aside at the drop of a hat, as a financial liability. He competes and works his nuts off.

At the end of the season he has played for his 6th manager in 3 seasons, he is owed money from late payments from being furloughed and the club have been relegated into non league football.

Having made his position perfectly clear and had a good relationship with the chairman where he has given all he has for the cause, the chairman, under huge personal and professional financial pressure, activates a re-engagement of a contract by offering a £1 increase to ensure that Elvis, one of his last remaining assets in terms of young players who stayed loyal and fought for his cause for longer than he should’ve, can only leave for a fee or compensation which would be determined at a later date.

Other clubs who’d been made aware of his situation and potential free transfer now realise that they have been led down the garden path and a change of heart means that the chairman now not only wants a fee for the player but is demanding a hugely inflated and completely unrealistic one.

The player, the agent, the selling and the buying club all know this is bullsh!t.

The player is rightly annoyed that his loyalty is not only not being rewarded but is actually being completely punished and taken advantage of. He’s fuming and says he’ll never play for the club again.

The buying club are rightly put out that they are now not only being asked for a fee but are being asked a fee that is completely outside a reasonable market value and say b0llocks to you you can keep him we have other targets.

The selling club, who had no intention of offering this player a reasonable and fair contract reflecting both his ability, experience and loyalty sit their smugly thinking we have this guy over a barrel and can keep him on a wage that is £1 over the wage less 2 x 25% deductions that he signed for two years ago……

He’s now 23 and realised that if he signs that contract, the chairman will do exactly the same to him the following summer….

I mean of course that’s hypothetical but if that had happened then yeah poor old Southend……

My only surprise is that Elvis didn’t find himself a club outside the UK much much sooner.

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

I was talking more about Ron's attitude to Orient trying to get Elvis for nothing...

 

[WestStandBlue]

Look I’m not going to convince everyone and I’m not prepared to keep repeating myself but….

Just consider this….I mean completely hypothetically of course….

Elvis is 20. He celebrates like a lunatic as his boyhood club survives league 1 relegation on last day of season. Assurances are given that the club wouldn’t be in this position again…..Elvis turns down offers from other clubs to stay loyal in an effort to see his club progress as he has been assured.

The following season he is just 21 as the club struggle again. He’s repeatedly not paid his wages. He’s then left at home with no contact from anyone at the club for 4 months as the season is curtailed and Southend are relegated.

He again turns down offers to leave and is persuaded by the club that the aim is to bounce straight back and that the club would not be on this position again. It’s quite possible, knowing he is out of contract at the end of the season that he is given assurances that if he stays and try’s to help the club back up that he will be allowed to leave at the end of the season. He’s a double player of the season and made a record 4 consecutive player of the month awards.

He’s now 22 and He sees three other highly rated young players leave before the end of August and no one comes in to replace them as the club is now under a transfer embargo due to non payment of Tax. He is again playing without being paid.

As the club tumble towards non league football, Elvis is an ever present and does all he can performance wise to play to the best of his ability knowing that he is out of contract and one silly tackle and injury will see the club toss him aside at the drop of a hat, as a financial liability. He competes and works his nuts off.

At the end of the season he has played for his 6th manager in 3 seasons, he is owed money from late payments from being furloughed and the club have been relegated into non league football.

Having made his position perfectly clear and had a good relationship with the chairman where he has given all he has for the cause, the chairman, under huge personal and professional financial pressure, activates a re-engagement of a contract by offering a £1 increase to ensure that Elvis, one of his last remaining assets in terms of young players who stayed loyal and fought for his cause for longer than he should’ve, can only leave for a fee or compensation which would be determined at a later date.

Other clubs who’d been made aware of his situation and potential free transfer now realise that they have been led down the garden path and a change of heart means that the chairman now not only wants a fee for the player but is demanding a hugely inflated and completely unrealistic one.

The player, the agent, the selling and the buying club all know this is bullsh!t.

The player is rightly annoyed that his loyalty is not only not being rewarded but is actually being completely punished and taken advantage of. He’s fuming and says he’ll never play for the club again.

The buying club are rightly put out that they are now not only being asked for a fee but are being asked a fee that is completely outside a reasonable market value and say b0llocks to you you can keep him we have other targets.

The selling club, who had no intention of offering this player a reasonable a fair contract reflecting both his ability, experience and loyalty sit their smugly thinking we have this guy over a barrel and can keep him on a wage that is £1 over the wage less 2 x 25% deductions that he signed for two years ago……

He’s now 23 and realised that if he signs that contract, the chairman will do exactly the same to him the following summer….

I mean of course that’s hypothetical but if that had happened then yeah poor old Southend……

My only surprise is that Elvis didn’t find himself a club outside the UK much much sooner.

Good business from Southend for once then

 

[londonblue]

These are called ‘add ons’ and are in no way a fee for a transfer. Hutchinson was allowed to leave for free. In any case the club received no add ons anyway becomes Derby went into admin and so it remains no fee!

Are they not part of a negotiation for when a player moves club? Are they not a fee that will be paid at some point?

Did you know that not all transfer fees are paid in advance? Often a payment plan is agreed. Would you say that those fees that form part of the transfer fee but aren't paid up front don't constitute part of the fee?

Regardless of all that, as I said. The truth of who is at fault will almost certainly be a bit of both because in life there's always at least 3 sides to any argument. I'm not saying you don't have a point, I'm just pointing out that your argument that Elvis should be treated the same everyone else doesn't hold water because he was.

I'm sure the club haven't been totally honourable, but then I'm sure neither have Elvis and his agent. Anyone who thinks only one side is at fault isn't looking at this rationally.

 

[bluesfansince1952]

Could it be the criteria used to calculate the fee were not fit for purpose in Elvis' case? My understanding is that the number first team appearances made by the player plays a big part in setting the fee. With the greatest respect to Elvis during the period in question had we had a half decent team it is quite possible he may not have even played half as many games as he did.
Is it possible the figure calculated was set quite unrealistically high because of his 116 games? Perhaps someone who fully understands this procedure could enlighten us.
I see this is a possible scenario: Tribunal sets high fee, the Club dig in, and, although Orient are interested they feel the tribunal figure is an overvaluation. They try to negotiate with the Club without success. Like any other business if they feel there is comparable but cheaper option out there they will go the least expensive route.
I cannot help but think that had his valuation been realistic Orient or someone else would have picked him up.