England - Selection headaches and unrealistic expectations

[Blue_Wes]

Just reading through the Switzerland thread and can't help but feel a little bit sorry for Capello.

I'm one of those that think he has been wrong tactically and selection wise, and given how much we're paying him to succeed, he's quite lucky to still be in a job - however with team selection he seems to be between a rock and a hard place. I'm also one that attends england games home and away regularly.

On one hand, we have people damning the strength of the squad when the old guard are not playing, Bent, Milner, Parker etc, but then he's also being damned for using the majority of the squad that massively underperformed so emphatically at SA. It's seems he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. For me, I still think we hype ourselves up to be much better than we are, and then crucify the players for not living up to our own and the media's expectations. Obviously it doesn't help when the players buy into and run with the hype. But are we being realistic with our expectations? We underperformed at SA, and now we are struggling to shine in qualifying, we are without a win in four Wembley appearances (and hardly against formidable opponenents), most English players aren't good enough to play regualrly for teams in the top half of the Premiershite and we didn't qualify for the last Euro's. Given how poor our recent history has been, why do we expect so much from the National side.

Given the slating of the players he's selected so far, I'm wondering what people think the line up should actually be? And should we be easing off the players a little during a transitional period in the squad. After all, it worked for Germany?

 

[BrettieAngell]

Some reasonable points there. I think the problem with Capello is A) How much he's paid and B) How shocking we were at the WC , he has to shoulder a large proportion of the blame for the performances whether we over hype the players or not. Also the FA for giving him a new contract BEFORE the tournament which was absolutely ridiculous.

 

[canveyshrimper]

The first requirement of an England manager is to ensure we qualify for the Euro's and World Cup, something the idiot Taylor and the dolt McClaren signally failed to do. When we get there we aren't good enough which is disappointing but something we should be able to deal with.

The major factor not dealt with is the press, they build the side up and when the inevitable failure happens the manager cops the flak, often rightly. Capello has lost the press in this country and he won't get them back on his side. The further problem is that the press and a lot of fans want that **** Redknapp in charge, he'll get the job and quickly go the way of Keegan IMO.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I think Capello is a far better manager than he's generally given credit for, and certainly better than any of the alternatives. However, I'm concerned about the number of traitors giving up on playing for England and if I was in charge of the FA I'd be making discrete enquiries of them to see if he was a factor.

Unfortunately, whilst we have very little depth on the playing front, we have even less depth amongst managers.

The only viable English candidate I can think of is David Beckham. He cares about England (and has it come to this when this becomes a criteria for the job?), he should have the respect of the players, has more international experience than almost any other Englishman alive (2nd most caps for England, the only Englishman I can think of to have played in the top two European leagues) and isn't tainted by failure.

If nothing else, he might stem the tide of players quitting England. He'd need a good tactically astute second in command given his inexperience and he unfortunately speaks even less English than Capello, but since Hodgson's reputation was destroyed at Liverpool, I can't think of anyone else. Any suggestions on who could be his assistant?

 

[Clinton Baptiste]

Capello has not done himself any favours by refusing to learn English to a good degree. How can he communicate his ideas? No wonder the players look clueless at times. The obscene salary that the FA pays the national manager needs addressing too, for such a crap footballing nation, it is out of all proportion.
That said there is not much any manager could do with the recent crop of players. The last 10 years weve lost Shearer, Beckham, Gary Neville, Scholes and, by the looks of it, Michael Owen, all players who produced on the big stage. Now we are relying on the likes of Bobby Zamora and Scott Parker. Its like 1992 all over again.

We need to take a rain check and accept it might be 10-15 years before we can realistically compete. Start by limiting the number of foreigners in the premier teams, this is undoubtedly where the bulk of the problem lies in producing good players. Secondly, get an English manager. Thirdly get a permanent chief exc at the FA one who is a real leader and a good poltiician also not like the hopless Lord Triesman. Lastly, clear out the old guard- Lampard, Gerrard, Terry, Ferdinand, and buuld from the youngsters, like Germany did 8-10 years ago.

 

[canveyshrimper]

I've never bought this thing about foreigners stopping the development of English players. English clubs dominated the European Cup from 1977 until 1982, and mainly with home grown players. We didn't qualify for the World Cups of 1974 or 1978, nor the Euro's of 1976. We had shed loads of qualified players who just weren't good enough. We've not quite reached the stage of 1992 when the idiot Taylor selected players of the "class" of Carlton ****ing Palmer & Geoff Thomas. I agree that we need to go for a younger set of players, but some of the old guard must remain to give some experience to the side.

I agree in principal with YB and giving the managers job to Beckham, it didn't do the Germans any harm when they appointed Franz Beckenbauer.

 

[Napster]

I think Capello is a far better manager than he's generally given credit for, and certainly better than any of the alternatives. However, I'm concerned about the number of traitors giving up on playing for England and if I was in charge of the FA I'd be making discrete enquiries of them to see if he was a factor.

Unfortunately, whilst we have very little depth on the playing front, we have even less depth amongst managers.

The only viable English candidate I can think of is David Beckham. He cares about England (and has it come to this when this becomes a criteria for the job?), he should have the respect of the players, has more international experience than almost any other Englishman alive (2nd most caps for England, the only Englishman I can think of to have played in the top two European leagues) and isn't tainted by failure.

If nothing else, he might stem the tide of players quitting England. He'd need a good tactically astute second in command given his inexperience and he unfortunately speaks even less English than Capello, but since Hodgson's reputation was destroyed at Liverpool, I can't think of anyone else. Any suggestions on who could be his assistant?

Hodgson did well bringing West Brom back up to 10th though. I'd have Venables as his assistant.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Hodgson did well bringing West Brom back up to 10th though. I'd have Venables as his assistant.

Hodgson is a good shout....He isn't biased to the top ******** players and isn't scared to try new things.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Hodgson did well bringing West Brom back up to 10th though. I'd have Venables as his assistant.

Hodgson is a good shout....He isn't biased to the top ******** players and isn't scared to try new things.

I think Hodgson is a very good manager, but I think his spell at Liverpool has ended any chance he had of managing England. Typically of the bloody scousers, sabotaging England at every opportunity.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

I think Hodgson is a very good manager, but I think his spell at Liverpool has ended any chance he had of managing England. Typically of the bloody scousers, sabotaging England at every opportunity.

He never stood a chance at Liverpool, was totally the wrong job for him. England would be light years ahead had Clough had the job after Ron Greenwood. I watched The Damned United last night...I was totally absorbed in it...Clough was an amazing character, hated how he was treated at Leeds....they aren't known as dirty Leeds for nothing!

The Damned United isn't particularly factual tho as I've just found out

 

[Blue_Wes]

For someone that has no managerial experience, I'm surprised at how much football fans are willing to accept him as manager. I include myself amongst them. I love how his passion for playing football has never waned, and that's nothing compared to his desire to play for England. Whilst lesser players hung up their boots in disguised tantrum at not being played, he pataiently stood by whilst McClaren's PR stunt to dropped him failed; and when McClaren changed his mind and decided to bow to fan power and reccall him, many a player would of let pride get in the way and told MClaren where to go. Not Becks, he just wants to play for England and I agree with Yorkie, his passion for his country makes him a good candidate.

Other nations have taken a chance on key players becoming managers, van Basten and klinsmann spring to mind. Venables would be an excellent assistant to Beckham, as would the aforementioned Hodgson. The thing is, they wouldn't have to pay Beckham the earth to take the role either, none of these lucrative contracts that Capello has been handed, and as BrettieAngell points out handed at the wrong time.

But we do need to take a step back, especially the media and relistically review our expectations. I think Canvey Shrimper is right in that the expectations should first and foremost be qualification for a tournament. Once there, I guess at best Quarter Finals. Anything above that is a bonus.

For what it's worth, if everyone was fit and playing to the best of their ability, I'd go with the Germany youth model and have a team along the lines of;

GK: Joe Hart

RB: Kyle Walker
LB Ashley Cole
CB: Rio Ferdinand
CB: Gary Cahill
MD: Jack Wilshire
MD: Steven Gerrard
MD: Scott Parker (the hardest decision through lack of options)

AM: Ashley Young
AM: Adam Johnson

ST: Wayne Rooney

Subs:
Joe Leach or Lewis, (one of the younger lads), Michah Richards, Michael Dawson, Gareth Barry, Frank Lampard, Carroll and one of Walcott/Bent/Owen

I'm not sure the fans or the press have the patience or inclination to allow a National side to grow though. I'll be casting a very interested eye over the U21's in Denmark though.

 

[Southend Neil]

Its diffcult to know what to make of England and people's expectations of them. It seems to me that in supporting England, we know what its like to support a big club that is supposedly underachieving and hasn't won anything for a long time. There appears to be a default position of having more expectation to other countries and as a consequence we are judged more harshly than others. Maybe its because we are a bigger country in size? Remember the Swiss scored 2 pretty freaky goals and relied on a howler of a miss just to get a draw, if that was England we would have been considered lucky, the Swiss are seen as superior in every department.
Remember Ireland being knocked out by France with the handball, it was seen as the biggest hard luck story of all time, poor old Ireland. England get robbed of a goal in Germany and its somehow seen as 'well you weren't good enough anyway and it wouldn't have made a difference'. But the same people who bash England for not winning something also say that we aren't good enough. Well you cant have it both ways, if we are the best team and underachieve then obviously something wrong but if we are a last 16 team and then we get there, you cant moan too much if we get knocked out. We can always hope for more but not necessarily expect it.

My personal view is that we are somewhere between 6 and 10 in the world in terms of ability so a 1/4 final or last 16 place is our level so we should be judged according to that whilst living in the hope that we will produce better players in time. Its also worth remembering that under a manager who is supposedly not up to it, we have lost a grand total of 2 games, 1 of which was a dead rubber. Is that really that bad?? Under Sven we were the only team in Europe to get to 1/4 finals of those 3 successive tournaments, a penalty kick away from 2 semi finals, 1 qualifying defeat and yet we are slaughtered for not going further while at the same time being lambasted for not having good enough players. I dont quite understand it.

Although seen as an excuse, I think the fatigue issue is a reason why we struggle a little in a tournament. We do look noticeably more leggy, I'm afraid its a undeniable fact that the Premier League is the most demanding physically in the world and all our players happen to play in it, even most foreigners playing in it didn't have a great world cup. A lot of our better performances do come when we are fresher, the crushing victories over Croatia and Bulgaria spring to mind. As Platini said, 'Lions in the winter, lambs in the summer.' Also goalkeeping howlers, managerial incompetence, a bit of luck, inabilty to save penalties in shoot outs and the heat all play their part in making it difficult to have ever won anything.

 

[Jam_Man]

I've never bought this thing about foreigners stopping the development of English players. English clubs dominated the European Cup from 1977 until 1982, and mainly with home grown players. We didn't qualify for the World Cups of 1974 or 1978, nor the Euro's of 1976. We had shed loads of qualified players who just weren't good enough. We've not quite reached the stage of 1992 when the idiot Taylor selected players of the "class" of Carlton ****ing Palmer & Geoff Thomas. I agree that we need to go for a younger set of players, but some of the old guard must remain to give some experience to the side.

I agree in principal with YB and giving the managers job to Beckham, it didn't do the Germans any harm when they appointed Franz Beckenbauer.

At least the players in the 70's were actually playing. Having foreign players in the English leagues is good to an extent as techincally players are much better off but due to the amount English players just dont get to play at a high enough level now.

The problem is that we have gone too far and very few English players play for top clubs now and dont gain the experience because its cheaper to buy a foreign player.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I think the problem is more too many foreign managers. Their knowledge is of foreign leagues rather than the lower divisions, so we're recruiting from a very narrow pool of players. Players only move sideways and not upwards - think back to Collymore and Powell, they had to move to other championship clubs and hope they got promoted in order to play top flight football. Both turned out to be internationals. Both should have been playing premier$hite football, and in turn international football, a lot earlier.

 

[Blue_Wes]

I think the problem is more too many foreign managers. Their knowledge is of foreign leagues rather than the lower divisions, so we're recruiting from a very narrow pool of players. Players only move sideways and not upwards - think back to Collymore and Powell, they had to move to other championship clubs and hope they got promoted in order to play top flight football. Both turned out to be internationals. Both should have been playing premier$hite football, and in turn international football, a lot earlier.

The career paths of English footballers has changed as a whole. It used to be they'd play for their home side, impress and move up to a top league side, then international football. These days because of the size of footballing academies, the big clubs sweep their nets far and wide collecting the bulk of the talent, and English players start at the top and their careers then tend to drop down the leagues when they realise not everyone in the academies can play in the first team football; especially when the more often than not foreign manager is recruiting ready made talent from their home countries (see Rafa Benetiz or Arsne Wenger for examples). So rather than working their way up the leagues, any decent English talent starts at the top and there's only one way to go from there, down. The exception of course being the kids that United had no chance of winning anything with and Jack Wilshire. Even Adam Johnson, voted second by England Fans as the player of the year to Ashley Cole can't get a game at City.

I do agree the foreign managers and subsequently the 'home' talent they employ is reducing the number of players we have with top flight and European experience needed to prepare them for international football. I'd be interested to see what % of starting players in the Premiershite were English.

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

I'd deliver a blank cheque to Arsene Wenger and give him whatever wage/resources he wants on a 5 year contract.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

I'd deliver a blank cheque to Arsene Wenger and give him whatever wage/resources he wants on a 5 year contract.

I really can't stand having foreign managers.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I was arguing some years ago that Rednapp should have taken over from McClaren.Having said that I think Uncle Woy would be a fantastic England manager.Anyone but Capello.Unfortunately we'll have to wait for next summer(or perhaps before)to find out who the new man will be.

 

[Rob Noxious]

I was arguing some years ago that Rednapp should have taken over from McClaren.Having said that I think Uncle Woy would be a fantastic England manager.Anyone but Capello.Unfortunately we'll have to wait for next summer(or perhaps before)to find out who the new man will be.

My memory of the post-McLaren managerial manoeuvrings in late 2007 was that Redknapp was very much interested in the post, but his arrest over fraud allegations effectively scuppered his chances :link:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...napp-arrested-in-bungs-probe-115875-20176756/


I was thinking over the week-end whilst watching that dreary display that England need a figure for these austere times. There is surely no more fitting candidate than the Dickensian figure that is Roy 'More gruel, Sir?' Hodgson.

 

[canveyshrimper]

My memory of the post-McLaren managerial manoeuvrings in late 2007 was that Redknapp was very much interested in the post, but his arrest over fraud allegations effectively scuppered his chances :link:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...napp-arrested-in-bungs-probe-115875-20176756/


I was thinking over the week-end whilst watching that dreary display that England need a figure for these austere times. There is surely no more fitting candidate than the Dickensian figure that is Roy 'More gruel, Sir?' Hodgson.

I'm firmly in the ABR (anyone but Redknapp) camp, he shouldn't be anywhere near the job, but he's got the press on his side as they appear to love his 'Appy 'Arry cheerful cockerney charmer persona that he cultivates. He's the arch manipulator, he manipulated his way out of Portsmouth to Southampton, and when that went tits up he got himself back to Portsmouth. I'd argue he manipulated his move to Spurs, and he is currently carefully trying to get the England job by saying Chelsea doesn't interest him but England would. That's big of him. Within 18 months he'll go the same way as Keegan as he simply isn't good enough.