England v Hungary C4 from 1900

[southendkid]

Strange how now to some people this has become the "Micky Mouse"cup,etc
But it was not like that last time when England done well,then the usual S/F mess up V Holland.

I was interested in the LDV Vans Trophy when we got to the final in 2013, that doesn't mean I was bothered when we went out early the following year. That's pretty much what a Mickey Mouse cup is, nice to win but you aren't going to care if you go out in round 1 either.

 

[JAL]

I don't understand fans say it's a pointless/meaningless competition, that it doesn't mean anything, but we're trying to be an Elite National team and we have just struggled 4 matches in a row, 2 of them lost against Hungary of all teams.

If we want to be an elite national team and win major tournaments, we have to be winning in the 'pointless' ones too, it should be a breeze but evidently for us it is not. I haven't like Gareth Southgate myself ever since his first year as manager, I don't like his playstyle and tactics, no matter if he got us a semi-final and a final - who knows, we may have actually won them with someone else.

 

[Leigh_Seasider]

He's doing that because he's being starved of possession and nobody in the midfield is grabbing the bull by the horns.

The gap between the front line and the midfield needs to be closed, and the solution might be more simple than you think. Maybe ditching at least one of the defensive midfielders would help.

Jordan Henderson is arguably the best England have in the end-to-end role yet always gets played deep. One good defensive midfielder breaking up play (Rice) combined with Henderson shuttling the ball through the lines could allow our best technicians the freedom to unlock the opposition.

At the moment we have no solid midfield base to build play upon. Nobody seems to want the ball.

The trouble is with sacrificing a defensive midfielder, we then leave our weak defence exposed and teams play right through us. Remember Southgate's first picks at CB are Maguire and Stones. I'd like to see someone like Tomori or even Smalling given a run but hey .. Gareth has his 'go to' players. I guess they've earnt his trust.

I get the need for keeping it tight but to me there's not enough risk taken, even at 0-3 last night it was sideways-backwards, 'play safe'. We should at the point say '**** it' and go for it, but the players were thinking of their pina coladas by the pool.

I'd love to see Foden or Saka or Grealish given more free rein but then we get picked off on the counter when they inevitably lose the ball (much like Hungary picked us off last night, with worrying ease). I guess Gareth is trying to get some balance and play a certain way.

 

[hlane17]

The trouble is with sacrificing a defensive midfielder, we then leave our weak defence exposed and teams play right through us. Remember Southgate's first picks at CB are Maguire and Stones. I'd like to see someone like Tomori or even Smalling given a run but hey .. Gareth has his 'go to' players. I guess they've earnt his trust.

I get the need for keeping it tight but to me there's not enough risk taken, even at 0-3 last night it was sideways-backwards, 'play safe'. We should at the point say '**** it' and go for it, but the players were thinking of their pina coladas by the pool.

I'd love to see Foden or Saka or Grealish given more free rein but then we get picked off on the counter when they inevitably lose the ball (much like Hungary picked us off last night, with worrying ease). I guess Gareth is trying to get some balance and play a certain way.

Tomori should start for England until further notice on the basis of being a rock in the middle of a title winning AC Milan side. Achieved far more than other English CBs over the season but there you go.

I've watched Rice many times last season and I believe he can do what's needed to bail England out, considering he was mopping up in front of a mediocre Craig Dawson and Zouma pairing all last season. He's used to carrying a side defensively and actually excels under that pressure.

The way I see it, we have two choices.

Sit back most of the game, play safe, initiate attacks rarely and still get punished when we lose the ball (Hungary last night)
OR
Get on the front foot, dictate the tempo, try to box the opposition into areas of the pitch where they cannot hurt us.

Getting high up the pitch still leaves that counter threat but which strategy will reap more goals? I think any footy fan knows the answer to that one. Fortune favours the brave in the beautiful game.

 

[Ricey]

Those saying we won’t escape the group, that is laughable. We will get out the group, but either way as group winners or second we are unlikely to get past the quarter finals. I felt that was the case prior to this run of bad games , so believe it even more now.

I’m one of England’s biggest critics and I can’t see us not getting out of the group. It should be an easy task.

However if we don’t Southgate should be given his P45 right there on the pitch.

 

[Tribal Chief]

That draw in Germany looks like a very decent result to me. It's also no disgrace to be held by Italy.

Hungary are an interesting team. They are good technically but man for man shouldn't stack up against England. However, they are a cohesive team from a cohesive nation and they are inspired to play for their country. Our players seem more interested in their 'brand'. Makes a big difference.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Hungary gave both France and Germany real problems in the Euros, holding both to draws in games they might well have held on and won. They are no pushovers.

But they play a way that this England team simply wouldn’t be allowed to.

 

[Kris]

A few observations:

1) Gareth Southgate - is he overly negative?

I would argue no and here's why. Our defence is average at best. Harry Maguire is arguably our best CB and he's just had a rotten season. John Stones on the ball is decent but struggles physically.

2) Who else is there?

Conor Coady is basically the Peter Clark of the Premier League. Love his enthusiasm. Is he a good defender? Not bad but he is limited to playing in a back three. Tyrone Mings is good in the air and no-nonsense. Jury's out. If Joe Gomez can keep fit, he could oust Stones. Struggled badly with injuries, which has held him back. Can play at full-back too, talking of which...

3) We're blessed with right backs, aren't we?

Hmmm. Might be controversial but Kyle Walker is, IMO, an awful defender prone to errors in every game. Luckily he has the pace to occasionally rescue himself. Good going forward of course but his end product is average. Trent Alexander Arnold is a bit of an enigma; like Walker his defending is questionable but has immense talent in the opposition half, although hasn't really shown that for England yet. He appears to have a free role on the right for Liverpool; maybe he doesn't like playing in a more conventional role, whether as a full-back or wing-back. Reece James? I like him but looks vulnerable in a back four. Definitely great going forward and improving all the time. My first choice would be Kieran Trippier. Solid defensively and great going forward. Another player prone to injury, though, and at 31 (32 by the World Cup), this might be his last tournament.

4) What about Tariq Lamptey?

Big fan of his but looks like we've missed the boat. Like I expected, he has chosen Ghana.

5) So, left-back then...

A two-way battle between Luke Shaw and Ben Chilwell. Think I prefer the latter, who is solid defensively and improving all the time going forward. Currently injured though. Shaw has largely been excellent in an England shirt but like Maguire had a nightmare season for Man U. A new alternative has emerged in James Justin but he has injury problems and suffered another one in the Nations League.

6) So the defence needs protection then?

Sadly, yes (IMO). Although to be honest, there's little creativity anyway. Declan Rice is continually improving and not at his peak yet. Has become the heartbeat in CM but he can't do it on his own. Calvin Phillips has proved he is a good partner when he is fully fit. The two of them formed a great partnership in the Euros. Jordan Henderson is a viable and underrated alternative but like Trippier will be 32 by the World Cup. Jude Bellingham is the future...

7) So we can't risk playing only one holding midfielder?

The Hungary game pretty much answers that one. We looked paper thin through the centre and were punished seemingly every time they attacked. And that wasn't often.

8) What about the wingers?

On the left we have two outstanding players in Jack Grealish and Phil Foden. The latter was injured for the Euros final and I still wonder whether we would have won had he been fit. Just one bit of magic, etc. Grealish transformed our attack when he came on as sub against Germany and it was pleasing to see him given freedom to drift into the middle against Italy.

9) But can we can play both of them?

Absolutely yes. Both are very comfortable in the middle as well as on the wing so I would pick one to play on the wing and the other to play in the number 10 role, and they can interchange. Other options are Marcus Rashford and Jaydon Sancho, although like Shaw and Maguire these two were injected with Man U syndrome last season.

10) What about the right?

We are blessed with the pacey Bayako Saka and Raheem Sterling; the latter can also play up front or in the number 10 role. Both have great pace. Mason Mount is another option and has settled well. He can play on the right and down the middle too.

11) And up front we have Harry Kane but he likes to drop deep these days. Why?

I don't like that either. It's not new, though, he's been playing like that for Spurs as well in the last couple of seasons. The difference is he has a brilliant understanding with Son Heung Min, who runs beyond him, and we don't appear to have that type of player. Or maybe we do but it's difficult to develop that sort of relationship in a limited time period at international level.

12) What happens if Kane gets injured?

Not that many options sadly. Dominic Calvert Lewin is likely to be Kane's long-term successor but injuries have hampered his development this season. Gerard Bowen has looked promising so far, as has Ollie Watkins. But all three are ultimately unproven.

13) So basically it's a mixed bag then?

Pretty much. We have plenty of attacking talent but the starting point should be at the back and as it stands our defence isn't good enough to cope on its own, meaning we have to protect it. You think back to the previous generation. Gary Neville, Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, Ashley Cole, etc. The defence picked itself and told the midfield to express itself. The key thing is to look at how to mould individuals into a successful team and sadly that might mean having to make unpopular decisions.

14) But surely we should be beating teams like Hungary?

In theory, yes, and the result and performance were both unacceptable. But football is a team game and Hungary have become a very strong and stubborn team even if they are inferior individually. They are a match for anyone.

15) So what would your starting line-up be against Iran?

I'd go 4-2-3-1:

Pickford

Trippier
Stones
Maguire
Shaw

Sterling
Phillips
Rice
Foden

Grealish

Kane

16) Thanks Gareth. Good luck with it.

Always a pleasure. Don't tell Kyle Walker what I said.

 

[Medway Blue]

If Southgate is to be sacked then it needs to be now to allow any new manager the autumn friendlies to get prepared for the World Cup. Doing it after losing a few friendlies in the autumn is a recipe for disaster - means heading into a major tournament in awful form and with a brand new, unprepared coach.

However, I wouldn't be sacking Southgate yet. I understand the claims of tactical naivety, a cautious style, not making the most of our many attacking talents, etc. But he has credit in the bank. He took us to our first major semi final since 1996 and our first major final since 1966. There are plenty of people twisting that to suit their narrative with talk of easy routes through the tournament, etc. but at the end of the day that was probably the case for the majority of World Cup and Euros winners in the past. Not to mention the fact we've had decent draws in the past and still only made 2nd Round or quarter finals.

He's changed the national team setup around, from a team spirit and man management perspective more than anything. He's brought those players together and got them playing for each other despite club rivalries, so he's already done more in that respect than any previous coach has done. Sure, go and get a more "tactically astute" or "attacking" manager and then watch us go back to having a national set of individuals who don't like each other.

Also much to be said for playing 4 international games in the space of a week in mid-June when the players want and deserve to be on holiday or enjoying their summer break with their mind of football for a bit. They're shattered. For crying out loud, they're probably diluent back for pre-season in 3 weeks' time. It won't be helping the reputation of the fledgling Nations League, which I like the idea of in theory. Although quite why the likes of Kevin de Bruyne are moaning about these Nations League games and not about the pointless international pre-season games and tournaments which are for commercial gain only, I don't know.

 

[Swiss Tony]

My advice to Gareth would be just stick to your job mate,you really ain't done that bad but put the politics to bed for now and when you think your heart isn't in the game anymore maybe then you can take your rightful place in the Lib/Dems.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

My advice to Gareth would be just stick to your job mate,you really ain't done that bad but put the politics to bed for now and when you think your heart isn't in the game anymore maybe then you can take your rightful place in the Lib/Dems.

Don’t think he did any politics before the Nations League.

Maybe that’s the issue as when he was talking up last year about stuff that matters to the players they played better and reached the final?

 

[MK Shrimper]

You think Sterling, Saka and the other black players wouldn't want to continue to take the knee after the abuse they receieved after the Euro Final?

 

[Swiss Tony]

You think Sterling, Saka and the other black players wouldn't want to continue to take the knee after the abuse they receieved after the Euro Final?

MK i would like to think the **** they received was from a small amount of idiots, the vast majority of proper football fans don't give a toss what colour our players are,once again Facebook,Twitter and the bloody media talking bollocks.

 

[MK Shrimper]

MK i would like to think the **** they received was from a small amount of idiots, the vast majority of proper football fans don't give a toss what colour our players are,once again Facebook,Twitter and the bloody media talking bollocks.

Me too, but one is one too many.