Europe:some facts

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.theguardian.com/business...ide:Pickable with editable override:Position1

No need to let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

One of my favourite facts about Spain (not mentioned in this excellent article) is that before 2008 (ie before the crisis) Spain was running a deficit lower than that of Germany's.In other words,in the case of Spain,it was the crisis that caused the country's huge deficit problems and not the other way around.

William Keegan makes a similar point about the UK:-

"Far too many people have swallowed Osborne's line, failing to appreciate that, with the obvious exception of Greece, the crisis was caused by the banks and other financial institutions, not public spending. It was the financial crisis that caused the bulk of the increase in the public sector debt. Moreover, a recovery was under way three years ago, until Osborne took measures to abort it."

 

[TS2]

Europe: fact or fiction?

The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain

 

[superblue24]

The only "fact" that matters to me is that if there is a referendum (which I dont think there will ever be), I will be voting to get the UK out of Europe ASAFP....

...and no Guardian columnist with a dodgy moustache is going to change my mind on that.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Europe: fact or fiction?

The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain

Certainly none here at the moment.Hottest October/November in the last 100 years,apparently.

The only "fact" that matters to me is that if there is a referendum (which I dont think there will ever be), I will be voting to get the UK out of Europe ASAFP....

...and no Guardian columnist with a dodgy moustache is going to change my mind on that.

I think you'll find that William Keegan has been an Observer journalist since I was in the 6th form ie 69/70.

I agree with you that there won't be a referendum on Europe, unless the Tories win the next election with an outright majority, (which they won't).

Incidentally,I'm suprised that no-one's pointed out there is actually, only one fact in the article,albeit an interesting one.:winking:

 

[MK Shrimper]

Well in Hertford, Hereford and Hampshire, Hurricanes Hardly Happen.

I don't half fancy a sing along now.....:happy:

All I want is to beat The Shrimps,
3-0 up will we get a glimpse,
Of the legendary Freddy E.…
Oh wouldn’t it be luvverly……

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Europe or the eu? I love Europe but loath the eu. I like France but often I am not so keen on the frogs themselves. As for the economies..........smoke and mirrors, false accounting, dodgy deals and corruption plus daft social engineering.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Europe or the eu? I love Europe but loath the eu. I like France but often I am not so keen on the frogs themselves. As for the economies..........smoke and mirrors, false accounting, dodgy deals and corruption plus daft social engineering.

I wonder how many "frogs" you actually know? None I'd imagine.

 

[steveo]

Europe: fact or fiction?

The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain

Does anyone give ****?

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I wonder how many "frogs" you actually know? None I'd imagine.

Dream away.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

  Spoiler:  

Dream away.

Hardly an answer.Details?

 

[Swiss Tony]

I wonder how many "frogs" you actually know? None I'd imagine.

My uncle shot one right between the eyes when he tried to get on his boat at Dunkirk bloody frog.

 

[Benfleet A1]

My uncle shot one right between the eyes when he tried to get on his boat at Dunkirk bloody frog.

Funny that. My father watched a French trawler blown out of the water at St Nazare during the Dunkirk evacuation because he was too busy moaning about making another run back to the beach to get some more troops picked up. If he had just gotten on with it he might have survived.

 

[Sandbach Shrimper]

unless the Tories win the next election with an outright majority, (which they won't).

I wouldn't be so sure. The economy is picking up, Miliband and his socialist policies (or complete lack of policies) aren't popular, the Lib Dems are now the 4th party, most sensible voters realise that a vote for UKIP would be a vote for Labour, and like it or not a lot of people agree with some of the things the government has done, particularly regarding welfare. Labour's lead is very narrow in the polls now, which is poor for an opposition party mid-term.

 

[Beefy]

The only "fact" that matters to me is that if there is a referendum (which I dont think there will ever be), I will be voting to get the UK out of Europe ASAFP....

...and no Guardian columnist with a dodgy moustache is going to change my mind on that.

Can I ask why?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Can I ask why?

You won't get an answer from him.He doesn't go in for rational arguments.

 

[Beefy]

I'm not really looking for an argument. Just some reasons as I'm genuinely curious.

You and I benefit from the Freedom of Movement which the EU has brought but when I go home I sense a real Euro-sceptical feeling more and more and I fully expect the UK to exist the EU within the next decade. I'm curious to understand the reasons.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I'm not really looking for an argument. Just some reasons as I'm genuinely curious.

You and I benefit from the Freedom of Movement which the EU has brought but when I go home I sense a real Euro-sceptical feeling more and more and I fully expect the UK to exist the EU within the next decade. I'm curious to understand the reasons.

Sorry,by "rational arguments" I meant discussion, rather than "argument" as such.

Here are some facts worth considering.

The CBI, at its conference last week, came out overwhemingly in favour of the UK staying in the EU.

Union leaders, at the TUC, regularly vote in favour of of the UK's EU membership.

Over 50% of the UK's exports are to countries in the Eurozone.

 

[superblue24]

You won't get an answer from him.He doesn't go in for rational arguments.

Better irrational than none at all, Barna.

Are we not due another Guardian quote soon, or did I miss it on another thread?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Better irrational than none at all, Barna.

Are we not due another Guardian quote soon, or did I miss it on another thread?

Check out the previous post for some rational arguments.Where are yours?

 

[superblue24]

Can I ask why?

I'm not a fan of the EU. It's expensive (we pay much more than we receive back imo), there's too much red-tape and bureaucrasy (not to mention the amount of power the EU leaders seem to possess now), open borders make it hard to control immigration, lack of democracy in the EU decisions, higher food prices caused by the CAP, Britain not being able to have special trading relations with the Commonwealth and other non-EU nations....

I know there are also benefits to being in Europe, but I have never liked being a part of the EU, but then that's maybe the fact I dislike anything European. I hate going on business trips to Europe, and wouldn't holiday in any of the countries, Spain (south), Greece and Italy the exception. Either way, it will be my own personal decision that matters if it comes to a referendum, and that decision would be to exit.