For those who believe that the founding ideology of America

[the_forgotten_man]

No they don;t becuase if the money on a war was used to destabilise the finances of teh middle east Iran wouldn't be able to afford to do any of this.

However as the oil is run by Saudia Arabia and at the time Iraq, that wasnt very likley . How do you destroy an army you remove its abaility to make war , which is done financially .

So we should use fiscal punishments to destabilise dictators? Working well in Zimbabwe...

 

[osymandus]

It is truly remarkable that people hold so much against the US. They are the global hegemon. They act like any other state, in terms of acting in their own best interests. Better than most, in fact. What exactly is it that you want the US to be doing? On the one hand you say they don't do nearly enough good around the world. On the other you say it is unacceptable for them to perceive themselves as the global police force.

To stop acting like the worlds judge a jury and co-operate more with a organisation called the UN or well basiclly their just a happy smiliey dictatorship who sells their culture because the old model of empire building the UK used was outdated . But that ok because it makes you feel safe an fits in with your ethics (even though the "groups" we are now fighting we're armed by the USA and European countries in thei rforiegn policey which they abandoned once it suited their purpose . I.e orchestrator of this current **** u. Again as i said before just becuase it was done before by anyway hardly makes it right

The fact is, we are extremely fortunate that the most powerful country in the world holds beliefs and morals that are largely in agreement with us (and I don't care what bollocks osy will raise about cultures being different rather than worse, our belief in freedom, democracy is BETTER than those countries in which people are silenced, oppressed, and murdered).

Have we at any staged attacked democracy or have we criticised some parts of some of the prior administrations of the USA for an aggressive policy that appears to have made the world a worst place to live ? Its funny your assuming i hate every aspect of it with a rabid fury and those that don't share my microcosmic view of the world are against me... oh wait no that would you. Arguing points we're not even contesting

Look at the two biggest threats to global security of the last hundred years: fascism and communism. Who was it that defeated both? I will always be proud of the part Britain played in defeating the Nazis, but equally, I will never ever be as disparaging about the US as you seem to be, because the fact is without them, we may well not have beaten fascism. Yes they only came in in 1941, but what we know about the Nazis now was not quite as obvious back then. Remember Britain stood by waving a piece of paper as the Germans rolled into Czechoslovakia, and the wondrous USSR signed a treaty with Hitler effectively slicing Poland in half.

Actually it has been shown now in released documents Neville Chamberlain has prepared forces as early as 1937 into early 1938.
By 1941 the battle of Britain and battle of Atlantic had already been one . Two of teh turning points of teh war . The Americans arrived and indeed helped but there was massive effort on the larger German population and descendants to not join proir to this also in memory of the loss form the WWI. There's nothing wonderous about the USSR or ever has been . Why you feel im arguing Communism as a benevolent alternative makes no sense ? Poland sadly has been a invaided and chopped up since teh Mogngols first invaded way back in the 1100's. The Allies defeated Nazi Germany , and the USSR was defeated by its own ridiculous economic problems so died from within . Mainly due to their monovision not unlike their equally mad western counterparts who wanted a war to end it all and show who was supreme (the MAD ideal , and Dr Stranglove are good examples of this)



The USA is not a perfect country. Nowhere is. But I would rather have them as my ally than any other country on earth.

As an ally their fine , its a lovely post you have there but not terribly relevant to teh argument ?

 

[osymandus]

So we should use fiscal punishments to destabilise dictators? Working well in Zimbabwe...

Sanctions , no , removing all ability for Maugabe and his ruling elite to spend anything abroad , yes that would work . They have little or no capability to make their own munitions as well , could we start there ?

 

[the_forgotten_man]

I wasn't saying you have attacked democracy. I said I expected you to, as you have in the past (I read frequently, but post sporadically), defended other cultures as being 'different' from ours, but not necessarily inferior. What I'm saying is that they are inferior.

The Battle of the Atlantic raged until 1943, and Chamberlain acted to improve the armed forces (not quickly enough, as the Phoney War shows), because of the pressure put on him by people like Churchill who saw the danger posed, not because he saw something inherrently detestable about the Nazis.

And of course the post is relevent to the argument you nutjob. People have been criticising American foreign policy, and I've defended it, giving reasons why they ain't so bad.

 

[Lord Football]

What prey tell, what makes a culture more inferior to ours?

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

1) One that stones to death its citizens for such crimes as adultery, and as we all agreed earlier, 1 murder or 26 million murders, it's all wrong.
2) One that cuts the hands off its citizens that steal.
3) One that habitually treats women as inferior.

You could of course argue that a government is responsible for this, but surely it becomes culture when successive governments do the same.

 

[osymandus]

1) One that stones to death its citizens for such crimes as adultery, and as we all agreed earlier, 1 murder or 26 million murders, it's all wrong.
2) One that cuts the hands off its citizens that steal.
3) One that habitually treats women as inferior.

You could of course argue that a government is responsible for this, but surely it becomes culture when successive governments do the same.

But some Western cultures comparing (im assuming you menat the middle and far eastern cultures) , do execute under their law's people for crimes. The preocesses and legislate can of course be questionable in both , but as i stated earlier associatation alone is never enough to entirely denounce a culture.

Habitability treating woman as inferior is built into Christian based culture and the suffragette movement and women's votes is still less then 150 years old even in the UK (Mongolia has a better record of women in higher paind and respectable jobs from 1978 then the UK !). In i am assuming here your refering to Islamic countries , there's a vast differnet between how women in Egypt for instance are treated to women in Turkey or Saudia Arabia or Dubia , yet both have the Quarn and Iman's as their guide (similar to Rome and The West coast bible belt of America)

It is the governments responsible and it becomes culture because a populace accept's it . As LF say's how can you deem all these cultures inferior when you pick only the worst parts you maybe aware of. These a good many parts of western democracies (of which in recent years the peoples choice's seem not to actually make teh governments) in its evolution since the fall of the USSR and some determination to bring it to the rest of the world weather they wish it or not .

My prior post about the relevance of your reply listing the parts of the war etc seem to deviate from and re Battle of Atlantic we were both wrong it was decisively "won" at sea 1942 , with a last mop up occurring on the U bot pens in 1943

The political environment and will for war wasn't there . While Churchill was one of the few (Tory MP's as late as 1940 wanted appeasement still)prior when he had been chancellor he had instigated massive cuts in the armed forces. Chaberlillian was following public and political will at the time but at appears now he got the peace of paper to give time for some arming to take place . Though sadly as the British goverment had ignored C S Fullers idea's for mechanised warfare in the 20's Hitler did not .

Though Thanks to Wall street the 1924 Dawes policy and the 1928 Young policy , US and wall street may have aided the rise of Nazi Germany (inadvertently or not ) http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/ as written by this man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_C._Sutton

 

[Lord Football]

1) One that stones to death its citizens for such crimes as adultery, and as we all agreed earlier, 1 murder or 26 million murders, it's all wrong.
2) One that cuts the hands off its citizens that steal.
3) One that habitually treats women as inferior.

You could of course argue that a government is responsible for this, but surely it becomes culture when successive governments do the same.

An interesting perspective.

How about a culture that doesn't allow political freedom of speech?
How about a culture that bans freedom of religion?
How about a culture that executes mentally challenged people?
How about a culture that discriminates of the basis of religion?

Four different cultures there to choose from, all from democracies (though not exclusively).

The examples you site are quite specific. Stoning is legal in Iran and possibly parts of Africa, yet examples of it being carried out can be counted on the fingers of one hand in the past decade. The following site gives details of all known executions worldwide. http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/world.html

The cutting off of hands is again not common place, and only carried out on repeat offenders. Generally restricted to Saudi Arabia. Some of the people I debate with on here would probably approve of such methods as a crime prevention scheme.

The women issue is interesting. Worldwide women are treated less favourably than men. Even in the UK, there is a clear and defined salaray gap between men and woman.

So, I ask again, what makes our culture more superior to others? My answer would be simply to understand and accept that cultures are different, and for every bad in a culture you will find a good.

 

[Lord Football]

EDIT to the above.

Having done a bit of reseach, I find about 10 known examples of stoning in the past 10 years.

 

[osymandus]

Can before we go any further thank everyone for a wonderful debate and as usual its brought in the crowds , 500 views :D ...

 

[Swiss Tony]

EDIT to the above.

Having done a bit of reseach, I find about 10 known examples of stoning in the past 10 years.

10 too many comrade.

 

[Swiss Tony]

Can before we go any further thank everyone for a wonderful debate and as usual its brought in the crowds , 500 views :D ...

Wikipedia,has done nicely too Ossie,wonderful things encyclopedias.

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

Having got up this morning and seen you've both rewritten 'war and peace' on here, let's just say that;

1) I admire your determination and ability to search wikipedia for hours on end to prove your point.
2) I think your political views are unrealistic and akin to a couple of whacked out hippies.
3) Although I was getting pretty ****ed off initially, I quite enjoyed this debate in the end, despite having to translate much of what Osy wrote (no offence intended).

Right, I'm off for my fix of the Daily Mail, you two have a good BBC brainwash. Tata.

 

[Lord Football]

Having got up this morning and seen you've both rewritten 'war and peace' on here, let's just say that;

1) I admire your determination and ability to search wikipedia for hours on end to prove your point.
2) I think your political views are unrealistic and akin to a couple of whacked out hippies.
3) Although I was getting pretty ****ed off initially, I quite enjoyed this debate in the end, despite having to translate much of what Osy wrote (no offence intended).

Right, I'm off for my fix of the Daily Mail, you two have a good BBC brainwash. Tata.

Wikipedia... pfft.... its about as reliable as Simon Francis.

BBC??? tsk....

Morning Star