Formula 1 2021

[londonblue]

Red Bull owning both Red Bull Racing and Alpha Tauri doesn't give them more power, they are treated as individual teams, nothing Alpha Tauri does on the race track relates to what Red Bull Racing does on the track.

They are only treated as sister teams, in which most teams have sister teams such as Mercedes and Williams, Ferrari and Alfa Romeo, etc, they do not gain more power just because one company has 2 teams racing on track.

It does give them more power in terms of voting at team meetings since they effectively have twice as many votes as the other teams. I think that is what @pottster meant.

 

[JAL]

It does give them more power in terms of voting at team meetings since they effectively have twice as many votes as the other teams. I think that is what @pottster meant.

Possibly in that sense, but if it came down to voting in different terms such as engine builds, regulations etc, the sister team would almost always follow the other, due to most likely using their engine, so it would most likely be the same for all.

But it would also go down to what benefits the smaller teams, it's not like Red Bull have two high flying teams, no, one is really good and the other is there for development of drives and testing, etc, so if all votes went the way to benefit the bigger team, then Alpha Tauri would be left behind at the bottom and would not develop as a team, so it would balance out that sort of power. It's all situation based.

 

[londonblue]

You would be correct.

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Above website in regards to changes next season. @Ricey

I have to say, I think those new wings look much nicer too!

 

[Medway Blue]

I've calmed down a bit since the race and have thus cooled on my stance against Max Verstappen, who can't be blamed for the farce at the end (although Christian Horner and Jonathan Wheatman are risible human beings and can both go **** themselves). He has driven brilliantly this season and his future success is assured in my book.

I don't think anything was done maliciously by Michael Masi or the FIA, but the incompetence is staggering and has unfairly influenced the outcome of a World Championship. I couldn't care less what Article 15.3 states, especially as the wording of that is open to interpretation too. I know that use of the word "any" rather than "all" when it comes to lapped cars overtaking the SC could perhaps just about be open to some interpretation, but the line "once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap" is crystal clear. Letting only 5 lapped cars through after the initial "lapped cars may not unlap themselves" message was also a joke, and it definitely seemed like Masi had been swayed by Horner's radio calls. Mercedes have absolutely got a case and are right to appeal/take it further, since the FIA were never going to rule against themselves on the original appeal. I still can't see anything being overturned (although I hope it gets Masi fired and influences some MAJOR changes to regulations and stewardship during the close season), but Max Verstappen's first title will now always have an asterisk next to it, through no fault of his own.

I completely understand the desire to let them race - I'm a dyed-in-the-wool F1 fan of 26 years and have spent most of that time railing against sneers and snide comments from other people that "it's boring" or "it's not a real sport". So I want to see a race more than anybody, and of course finishing a season such as this under a SC would have done a disservice. But if a race has to finish under SC to ensure sporting integrity, then so be it. I don't want the regulations being bent/ignored just to manufacture an artificial final lap sprint to the flag. It makes a mockery of sporting integrity, it looks shoddy and unprofessional, it damages the sport's credibility with fans, sponsors and even competitors, and it leaves a bitter taste.

In hindsight, if they wanted the sprint to the flag, they should have red flagged it. I know Masi had said beforehand that he wouldn't do all he could to avoid a red flag, but it would have served the situation better. Everybody could change tires under the current regulations, there would be no issues with lapped cars, and they could have gotten the one-lap sprint that they so badly wanted off the line. I'm sure some would have argued that it favoured Mercedes, but LH would still have had his 11 second lead wiped-out, and both cars would have re-started on fresh soft rubber. So at least it would have been fair to both.

Anybody saying "Merc ****ed up the strategy, they should have pitted" is a know-nothing. They correctly surmised that if the regulations were applied accurately, that race was bound to finish under a safety car. They also knew that RBR were hellbent on doing the polar opposite of what Merc did. So why would they bring Lewis in and give up track position, knowing that the race was highly likely to finish under yellow flags and that Lewis wouldn't get the chance to try to take 1st place back? And why would they give a second thought as to whether the regulations would be correctly applied? Not one single person blaming Merc's strategy would have made a different call, and if they say otherwise then they are a liar.

 

[londonblue]

I've calmed down a bit since the race and have thus cooled on my stance against Max Verstappen, who can't be blamed for the farce at the end (although Christian Horner and Jonathan Wheatman are risible human beings and can both go **** themselves). He has driven brilliantly this season and his future success is assured in my book.

I don't think anything was done maliciously by Michael Masi or the FIA, but the incompetence is staggering and has unfairly influenced the outcome of a World Championship. I couldn't care less what article 15.3 states, especially as the wording of that is open to interpretation too. I know that use of the word "any" rather than "all" when it comes to lapped cars overtaking the SC could perhaps just about be open to some interpretation, but the line "once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap" is crystal clear. Letting only 5 lapped cars through after the initial "lapped cars may not unlap themselves" message was also a joke, and it definitely seemed like Masi had been swayed by Horner's radio calls. Mercedes have absolutely got a case and are right to appeal/take it further, since the FIA were never going to rule against themselves on the original appeal. I still can't see anything being overturned (although I hope it gets Masi fired and influences some MAJOR changes to regulations and stewardship during the close season), but Max Verstappen's first title will now always have an asterisk next to it, through no fault of his own.

I completely understand the desire to let them race - I'm a dyed-in-the-wool F1 fan of 26 years and have spent most of that time railing against sneers and snide comments from other people that "it's boring" or "it's not a real sport". So I want to see a race more than anybody, and of course finishing a season such as this under a SC would have done a disservice. But if a race has to finish under SC to ensure sporting integrity, then so be it. I don't want the regulations being bent/ignored just to manufacture an artificial final lap sprint to the flag. It makes a mockery of sporting integrity, it looks shoddy and unprofessional, it damages the sport's credibility with fans, sponsors and even competitors, and it leaves a bitter taste.

In hindsight, if they wanted the sprint to the flag, they should have red flagged it. I know Masi had said beforehand that he wouldn't do all he could to avoid a red flag, but it would have served the situation better. Everybody could change tires under the current regulations, there would be no issues with lapped cars, and they could have gotten the one-lap sprint that they so badly wanted off the line. I'm sure some would have argued that it favoured Mercedes, but LH would still have had his 11 second lead wiped-out, and both cars would have re-started on fresh soft rubber. So at least it would have been fair to both.

Anybody saying "Merc ****ed up the strategy, they should have pitted" is a know-nothing. They correctly surmised that if the regulations were applied accurately, that race was bound to finish under a safety car. They also knew that RBR were hellbent on doing the polar opposite of that Merc did. So why would they bring Lewis in and give up track position, knowing that the race was highly likely to finish under yellow flags and that Lewis wouldn't get the chance to try to take 1st place back? And why would they give a second thought as to whether the regulations would be correctly applied? Not one single person blaming Merc's strategy would have made a different call, and if they say otherwise then they are a liar.

Nothing Masi did was to manipulate the result, it was done to manipulate a result.

As it happens, I've just read on the BBC website that Mercedes might decide not to appeal to maintain the integrity of the sport. My view is that that would be the nice thing to do, but it wouldn't clarify the regulations, which either need clarifying or followed.

 

[JAL]

I've calmed down a bit since the race and have thus cooled on my stance against Max Verstappen, who can't be blamed for the farce at the end (although Christian Horner and Jonathan Wheatman are risible human beings and can both go **** themselves). He has driven brilliantly this season and his future success is assured in my book.

I don't think anything was done maliciously by Michael Masi or the FIA, but the incompetence is staggering and has unfairly influenced the outcome of a World Championship. I couldn't care less what article 15.3 states, especially as the wording of that is open to interpretation too. I know that use of the word "any" rather than "all" when it comes to lapped cars overtaking the SC could perhaps just about be open to some interpretation, but the line "once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap" is crystal clear. Letting only 5 lapped cars through after the initial "lapped cars may not unlap themselves" message was also a joke, and it definitely seemed like Masi had been swayed by Horner's radio calls. Mercedes have absolutely got a case and are right to appeal/take it further, since the FIA were never going to rule against themselves on the original appeal. I still can't see anything being overturned (although I hope it gets Masi fired and influences some MAJOR changes to regulations and stewardship during the close season), but Max Verstappen's first title will now always have an asterisk next to it, through no fault of his own.

I completely understand the desire to let them race - I'm a dyed-in-the-wool F1 fan of 26 years and have spent most of that time railing against sneers and snide comments from other people that "it's boring" or "it's not a real sport". So I want to see a race more than anybody, and of course finishing a season such as this under a SC would have done a disservice. But if a race has to finish under SC to ensure sporting integrity, then so be it. I don't want the regulations being bent/ignored just to manufacture an artificial final lap sprint to the flag. It makes a mockery of sporting integrity, it looks shoddy and unprofessional, it damages the sport's credibility with fans, sponsors and even competitors, and it leaves a bitter taste.

In hindsight, if they wanted the sprint to the flag, they should have red flagged it. I know Masi had said beforehand that he wouldn't do all he could to avoid a red flag, but it would have served the situation better. Everybody could change tires under the current regulations, there would be no issues with lapped cars, and they could have gotten the one-lap sprint that they so badly wanted off the line. I'm sure some would have argued that it favoured Mercedes, but LH would still have had his 11 second lead wiped-out, and both cars would have re-started on fresh soft rubber. So at least it would have been fair to both.

Anybody saying "Merc ****ed up the strategy, they should have pitted" is a know-nothing. They correctly surmised that if the regulations were applied accurately, that race was bound to finish under a safety car. They also knew that RBR were hellbent on doing the polar opposite of that Merc did. So why would they bring Lewis in and give up track position, knowing that the race was highly likely to finish under yellow flags and that Lewis wouldn't get the chance to try to take 1st place back? And why would they give a second thought as to whether the regulations would be correctly applied? Not one single person blaming Merc's strategy would have made a different call, and if they say otherwise then they are a liar.

I actually disagree, I don't think Horner swayed them at all, if you listen to the radio message, Masi tells Horner to wait as he was sorting it all out, to me it kind of sounded like they were making up the decision in the process anyway, I could be wrong but that was my own interpretation.

 

[Dave Smiths Love Child]

Nothing Masi did was to manipulate the result, it was done to manipulate a result.

As it happens, I've just read on the BBC website that Mercedes might decide not to appeal to maintain the integrity of the sport. My view is that that would be the nice thing to do, but it wouldn't clarify the regulations, which either need clarifying or followed.

Would like to think it doesn’t go to appeal, if given to Hamilton it will tarnished, who will ever know on the last few laps he would not have hit the wall.
End of the day who ever side you are on, the conspiracy theory will go into overdrive
Seems radio message has been leaked from LH now which is pure adrenaline and spur of the moment, shame a great season has ended like this

 

[londonblue]

Would like to think it doesn’t go to appeal, if given to Hamilton it will tarnished, who will ever know on the last few laps he would not have hit the wall.
End of the day who ever side you are on, the conspiracy theory will go into overdrive
Seems radio message has been leaked from LH now which is pure adrenaline and spur of the moment, shame a great season has ended like this

Unlikely behind a safety car. What they're arguing is that the race should have ended under the safety car.

As an aside David Coulthard said something about Latifi and his accident that caused the situation, that really made me laugh. He said he seemed to be trying to overtake himself!

 

[Ricey]

I've calmed down a bit since the race and have thus cooled on my stance against Max Verstappen, who can't be blamed for the farce at the end (although Christian Horner and Jonathan Wheatman are risible human beings and can both go **** themselves). He has driven brilliantly this season and his future success is assured in my book.

I don't think anything was done maliciously by Michael Masi or the FIA, but the incompetence is staggering and has unfairly influenced the outcome of a World Championship. I couldn't care less what article 15.3 states, especially as the wording of that is open to interpretation too. I know that use of the word "any" rather than "all" when it comes to lapped cars overtaking the SC could perhaps just about be open to some interpretation, but the line "once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap" is crystal clear. Letting only 5 lapped cars through after the initial "lapped cars may not unlap themselves" message was also a joke, and it definitely seemed like Masi had been swayed by Horner's radio calls. Mercedes have absolutely got a case and are right to appeal/take it further, since the FIA were never going to rule against themselves on the original appeal. I still can't see anything being overturned (although I hope it gets Masi fired and influences some MAJOR changes to regulations and stewardship during the close season), but Max Verstappen's first title will now always have an asterisk next to it, through no fault of his own.

I completely understand the desire to let them race - I'm a dyed-in-the-wool F1 fan of 26 years and have spent most of that time railing against sneers and snide comments from other people that "it's boring" or "it's not a real sport". So I want to see a race more than anybody, and of course finishing a season such as this under a SC would have done a disservice. But if a race has to finish under SC to ensure sporting integrity, then so be it. I don't want the regulations being bent/ignored just to manufacture an artificial final lap sprint to the flag. It makes a mockery of sporting integrity, it looks shoddy and unprofessional, it damages the sport's credibility with fans, sponsors and even competitors, and it leaves a bitter taste.

In hindsight, if they wanted the sprint to the flag, they should have red flagged it. I know Masi had said beforehand that he wouldn't do all he could to avoid a red flag, but it would have served the situation better. Everybody could change tires under the current regulations, there would be no issues with lapped cars, and they could have gotten the one-lap sprint that they so badly wanted off the line. I'm sure some would have argued that it favoured Mercedes, but LH would still have had his 11 second lead wiped-out, and both cars would have re-started on fresh soft rubber. So at least it would have been fair to both.

Anybody saying "Merc ****ed up the strategy, they should have pitted" is a know-nothing. They correctly surmised that if the regulations were applied accurately, that race was bound to finish under a safety car. They also knew that RBR were hellbent on doing the polar opposite of that Merc did. So why would they bring Lewis in and give up track position, knowing that the race was highly likely to finish under yellow flags and that Lewis wouldn't get the chance to try to take 1st place back? And why would they give a second thought as to whether the regulations would be correctly applied? Not one single person blaming Merc's strategy would have made a different call, and if they say otherwise then they are a liar.

Take it that last line about Merc strategy was a dig at me. I was referring to them not pitting under the VSC not the SC.

 

[pottster]

I actually disagree, I don't think Horner swayed them at all, if you listen to the radio message, Masi tells Horner to wait as he was sorting it all out, to me it kind of sounded like they were making up the decision in the process anyway, I could be wrong but that was my own interpretation.

I dont think you hear all the conversations, they just release snippets to spice things up. Same as the driver radios

 

[JAL]

I dont think you hear all the conversations, they just release snippets to spice things up. Same as the driver radios

I know this is the case, as I said, from what I heard, it is my own interpretation at the moment.

 

[Medway Blue]

Take it that last line about Merc strategy was a dig at me. I was referring to them not pitting under the VSC not the SC.

Nope, it was a dig against anybody who keeps parroting the line about Merc's strategy. I'm seeing it a lot on social media. I forgot you even mentioned it to be honest. That being said, arguments about their strategy under the VSC are less laughable but still flawed. Hamilton was continuing to pump in quick laps on worn hards, even compared to Verstappen after his VSC pit stop. So I'd say they made the right call to keep him out then too. He was absolutely cruising to victory. I'm not sure you can blame anybody on the Merc pit wall for not thinking "let's pit him under VSC and give up track position (because if he pitted, you know RBR wouldn't have done) - you know, just incase some idiot bins it into the barriers 5 laps before the end of the race to bring out the SC, MV pits for softs and the Race Director ignores the regulations to let him have a final-lap run at us on new tyres."

There could maybe be an argument for Merc being cautious with their strategy calls, but hindsight is a wonderful thing and they had an awful lot to lose. What Horner will never admit is that MV being behind LH on track was beneficial and gave them at least a psychological advantage, as they vowed to do the opposite of whatever Mercedes did. They held the cards and backed Merc into a corner.

 

[pottster]

It was funny with ten laps to go, and horner admitting they were finished. I did think a sc was the only thing to save them. Then wondered if Perez would stick it in a wall. But someone beat them to it!

 

[GNH]

Not a massive F1 fan, nor particularly a Hamilton fan either tbh, however I will no longer have any interest in F1 after that race.

Regardless of who won, to make up the rules as you go along and for it to be what decides who became workd champion is a farce.

 

[Supershrimper]

When Nicholas Latifi crashed out at Turn 14 and the safety car was deployed with six laps remaining, it was obvious that it would turn the race on its head and give one final twist to the championship.

In the last couple of years there has been a general agreement with the teams that the Race Director should always endeavour to have the race ending under green flag conditions, even if only for a lap or two, as at Baku earlier this year.

It is not compulsory for the lapped cars to be allowed to unlap themselves, but it is at the Race Director’s discretion. Michael Masi dithered by not allowing them to unlap and then changed his mind.

Perhaps he remembered that this was "motor racing" and not the final day in the Tour de France where its a procession through the streets of Paris. This was not a procession and had been billed as the showdown of the season with both on the sam points, both at the front of the grid and both fighting for the title.

 

[Derbyshire Blue]

When Nicholas Latifi crashed out at Turn 14 and the safety car was deployed with six laps remaining, it was obvious that it would turn the race on its head and give one final twist to the championship.

In the last couple of years there has been a general agreement with the teams that the Race Director should always endeavour to have the race ending under green flag conditions, even if only for a lap or two, as at Baku earlier this year.

It is not compulsory for the lapped cars to be allowed to unlap themselves, but it is at the Race Director’s discretion. Michael Masi dithered by not allowing them to unlap and then changed his mind.

Perhaps he remembered that this was "motor racing" and not the final day in the Tour de France where its a procession through the streets of Paris. This was not a procession and had been billed as the showdown of the season with both on the sam points, both at the front of the grid and both fighting for the title.

But not both on the same tyres. They’d had over 50 laps of “motor racing” but wasn’t how they wanted it to end I guess.

 

[pottster]

When Nicholas Latifi crashed out at Turn 14 and the safety car was deployed with six laps remaining, it was obvious that it would turn the race on its head and give one final twist to the championship.

In the last couple of years there has been a general agreement with the teams that the Race Director should always endeavour to have the race ending under green flag conditions, even if only for a lap or two, as at Baku earlier this year.

It is not compulsory for the lapped cars to be allowed to unlap themselves, but it is at the Race Director’s discretion. Michael Masi dithered by not allowing them to unlap and then changed his mind.

Perhaps he remembered that this was "motor racing" and not the final day in the Tour de France where its a procession through the streets of Paris. This was not a procession and had been billed as the showdown of the season with both on the sam points, both at the front of the grid and both fighting for the title.

If the race director had followed the rules the race would have finished under a safety car maybe not the most exciting ending but one of the correct options. If the race director wanted them to race he should have red flagged it. You would have had 2 laps of of crazy racing with both of them on fresh tyres, that is something I would want to see.

 

[londonblue]

When Nicholas Latifi crashed out at Turn 14 and the safety car was deployed with six laps remaining, it was obvious that it would turn the race on its head and give one final twist to the championship.

In the last couple of years there has been a general agreement with the teams that the Race Director should always endeavour to have the race ending under green flag conditions, even if only for a lap or two, as at Baku earlier this year.

It is not compulsory for the lapped cars to be allowed to unlap themselves, but it is at the Race Director’s discretion. Michael Masi dithered by not allowing them to unlap and then changed his mind.

Perhaps he remembered that this was "motor racing" and not the final day in the Tour de France where its a procession through the streets of Paris. This was not a procession and had been billed as the showdown of the season with both on the sam points, both at the front of the grid and both fighting for the title.

Agreed, but where in the rules does it say that some cars can be allowed to un-lap themselves and others not? It also states in the rules that the safety car will come in at the end of the next lap. Michael Masi didn't dither, he changed his mind. He gave out two instructions, the 2nd to allow some cars to un-lap themselves after telling everyone that they couldn't and after Mercedes had made their strategy decision.

Here's an interesting quote:

"There's a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past."

Guess who said that after the Eifel Grand Prix in 2020? Yes, Michael Masi when both Hamilton and Verstappen complained the safety car period had been unnecessarily long.

 

[Holy Joe]

Mercedes should've asked Bottas to just park his car somewhere to keep the safety car out.

 

[Ricey]

Mercedes has withdrawn their appeal.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1471419870680125441