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Kevin Hogg

President
Joined
Dec 5, 2011
Messages
3,059
Location
Altea, Spain
EVERYBODY (including me) has been crying out for the pace, energy and enthusiasm of youth in the England team.
2012 we looked completely out of ideas and just managed to grind results before losing on penalties to a team that destroyed us..but drew the game.

Since yesterday morning all the media and public have been saying the team played well and showed promise against the wiley italians and the peerless Pirlo.

BUT WE LOST!!!!!!!!!!

In my opinion, the World Cup IS NOT the place to develop great, young talent. You do that in the 12 months before the tournament or after it.

The "grinders outers" of Lampard, James Milner (Carrick even) along with Stevie G would very likely have got a dull 0-0. But we would have the point we so desperately needed.

Step-overs are fine - if you win. Step-overs and fancy runs in a 2-1 defeat in the World Cup Finals - sends you home!!!
It only happens just once in four years. It could be over for England by Thursday. With the magnificent talents of Sterling, Berkley et all - they are praised in defeat. they feel ok. I want the boring, miserable players like James "dull" Milner for whom defeat is just not an option. The kids can afford to lose and be feted for a bloody step-over.

I kind of don't agree with myself. But am very concerned that there will be loads of praise and optimism for the "entertaining losers" as they depart the plane at Luton next week.
 

mrsblue

Banned
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
9,419
EVERYBODY (including me) has been crying out for the pace, energy and enthusiasm of youth in the England team.
2012 we looked completely out of ideas and just managed to grind results before losing on penalties to a team that destroyed us..but drew the game.

Since yesterday morning all the media and public have been saying the team played well and showed promise against the wiley italians and the peerless Pirlo.

BUT WE LOST!!!!!!!!!!

In my opinion, the World Cup IS NOT the place to develop great, young talent. You do that in the 12 months before the tournament or after it.

The "grinders outers" of Lampard, James Milner (Carrick even) along with Stevie G would very likely have got a dull 0-0. But we would have the point we so desperately needed.

Step-overs are fine - if you win. Step-overs and fancy runs in a 2-1 defeat in the World Cup Finals - sends you home!!!
It only happens just once in four years. It could be over for England by Thursday. With the magnificent talents of Sterling, Berkley et all - they are praised in defeat. they feel ok. I want the boring, miserable players like James "dull" Milner for whom defeat is just not an option. The kids can afford to lose and be feted for a bloody step-over.

I kind of don't agree with myself. But am very concerned that there will be loads of praise and optimism for the "entertaining losers" as they depart the plane at Luton next week.


The worst 3 players against Italy were Rooney(played out of position)Gerrard who did absolutely nothing and Johnson who resembles a kamikaze pilot with his defending.

Youth have no fear which IMO is the only way forward.The old players shout a good game but ultimately rarely live up to their own visions.

I am convinced if Roy plays all of the youngsters we will get out of the group.
 

MK Shrimper

Striker
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
52,348
We're not going to win this World Cup, so Roy is right to blood the youngsters in games where it really matters. I'd have been happy if Roy had left the whole lot of the "so-called" Golden Generation at home - after this WC we'll never see Lampard/Gerrard in an England shirt again...Rooney has probably just one more international tournament left.

If there is a WC in Russia and they havent started WW3 yet, then we may do better.
 

madaboutblues

Lady Shrimper
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
723
Location
Leigh
For me Sterling was the man of the match. If we followed your logic, he would not even have played. It's time for a change and I personally think playing on the big stage like this can only be of benefit to Sterling, Barkley, Lallana. No-one expects us to win, getting out of the group stage will be tricky now so I say lets at least go down in a blaze rather than the same boring "grinding out a draw"
 

Jim Levenstein

Manager
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Messages
2,224
I think the reason we lost this was not due to the young lads further up the pitch but due to the fact we don't have Ashley Cole and John Terry in our back 4 now.

If Milner played we would of still lost.
 

Pubey

Guest
The worst 3 players against Italy were Rooney(played out of position)Gerrard who did absolutely nothing and Johnson who resembles a kamikaze pilot with his defending.

Youth have no fear which IMO is the only way forward.The old players shout a good game but ultimately rarely live up to their own visions.

I am convinced if Roy plays all of the youngsters we will get out of the group.

So Rooney was terrible but set up our goal with a great cross (with his left foot) and created a good chance with an excellent run (which sadly he should have finished).

Let's compare Gerrard to Henderson.

Henderson:
1 shot (on target)
44/50 (88%) successful passes (15/18 (83%) in final third)
2 chances created
No tackles
No blocks
No headed clearances
No blocked crosses
1 interception
1 foul committed
1 foul suffered

Gerrard:
1 shot (off target)
62/67 (93%) successful passes (15/18 (83%) in final third)
1 chance created
3 tackles
No blocks
No headed clearances
No blocked crosses
1 interception
0 foul committed
0 foul suffered

What those stats say to me is that Gerrad was hugely impressive on the ball. For someone who gets called out for 'hollywood passes' - he was very precise and both him and Henderson popped up with good passing in the final third.

Both players had little impact in the defensive areas (mainly because we played a lot of the time in Italy's half). Although Gerrard weighed in with 3 tackles.

I'm not sure why Gerrard is getting called out with probably his best game for a long time for England.

To be fair - his set-pieces were off (As were everyone's). We have to be much better with our set pieces, especially against a smaller Costa Rica and Uraguay team.
 

RHB

Super Moderator ⭐
Staff member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
22,849
Location
Westcliff riviera
We're not going to win this World Cup, so Roy is right to blood the youngsters in games where it really matters. I'd have been happy if Roy had left the whole lot of the "so-called" Golden Generation at home - after this WC we'll never see Lampard/Gerrard in an England shirt again...Rooney has probably just one more international tournament left.

If there is a WC in Russia and they havent started WW3 yet, then we may do better.

There probably is, but I bet the plumbing is naff. Play the youngsters, what have we got to lose?
 

mrsblue

Banned
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
9,419
So Rooney was terrible but set up our goal with a great cross (with his left foot) and created a good chance with an excellent run (which sadly he should have finished).

Let's compare Gerrard to Henderson.

Henderson:
1 shot (on target)
44/50 (88%) successful passes (15/18 (83%) in final third)
2 chances created
No tackles
No blocks
No headed clearances
No blocked crosses
1 interception
1 foul committed
1 foul suffered

Gerrard:
1 shot (off target)
62/67 (93%) successful passes (15/18 (83%) in final third)
1 chance created
3 tackles
No blocks
No headed clearances
No blocked crosses
1 interception
0 foul committed
0 foul suffered

What those stats say to me is that Gerrad was hugely impressive on the ball. For someone who gets called out for 'hollywood passes' - he was very precise and both him and Henderson popped up with good passing in the final third.

Both players had little impact in the defensive areas (mainly because we played a lot of the time in Italy's half). Although Gerrard weighed in with 3 tackles.

I'm not sure why Gerrard is getting called out with probably his best game for a long time for England.

To be fair - his set-pieces were off (As were everyone's). We have to be much better with our set pieces, especially against a smaller Costa Rica and Uraguay team.



Rooney was ineffective because he was played out of position and every pundit said the same thing,Still you know best.

Gerrard the defensive midfielder never even committed one foul that alone speakers volumes,Most of his passes were square 10 yarders whilst his long stuff gave the receiver little chance of doing anything with the ball.

If you think that was one of his good games then god help us.
 

Pubey

Guest
Rooney was ineffective because he was played out of position and every pundit said the same thing,Still you know best.

Gerrard the defensive midfielder never even committed one foul that alone speakers volumes,Most of his passes were square 10 yarders whilst his long stuff gave the receiver little chance of doing anything with the ball.

If you think that was one of his good games then god help us.

Rooney wasn't ineffective, I've not heard a single pundit say that. He didn't have a great game, and he did struggle with being out of position and supporting Baines - however he still set up 2 of our best 4 chances (the Sturridge goal and the one he missed). The other chance being the Sterling cross which Welbeck couldn't get to, and the Welbeck cross which bounced wide of the post.

So you want our defensive midfielders to commit fouls?! I want them to make tackles, blocks and interceptions and to not give the ball away. Neither Henderson or Gerrard are true defensive midfielders. Both are box to box players and more adept in attack than in defence.


http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszon...ayer-stats/1814/1_PASS_01#tabs-wrapper-anchor

That doesn't like like 'most of his passes were square 10 yarders':

He made 13 (out of 13) square passes, 9 (out of 10) long passes, 8 (out of 8) backwards passes, 41 (out of 46) forward passes, 53 (out of 57) short passes.

But don't let some stats get in the way of your sweeping statements.


My three positive and three negatives about the Italy game:

+ played with pace
+ passing was generally excellent
+ created some good chances

- wasteful set pieces
- ran out of steam
- left side too exposed.
 

Kevin Hogg

President
Joined
Dec 5, 2011
Messages
3,059
Location
Altea, Spain
As I said - I don't completely agree with my logic.

My point is that the World Cup is THE month that an international team aims for. One month in four long years. As good as the young lads are - I believe Roy had enough time to decide on his best team and get it ready to compete. Sterling? How many starts pre-Italy? One?? How many minutes? Barkley? same question.
If Roy thought they were good enough then he should have made it clear they are an integral part of the TEAM and not just squad months ago.

We are now trying to develop the team actually during a World Cup.

The common theme is that Saturday was a vast improvement on Kiev 2012. It wasn't. We DREW in Kiev and LOST in Manaus. That is not improvement to a winning mentality. Would the Italians?, Germans? Jose Mourinho?, Sir Alex? Would they believe a 2-1 defeat is an improvement after two whole years of planning?

This improvement theory is a losers mentality and the reason why we never win.

Give me a dull, boring, "park the bus" 0-0 in Manaus to an exciting, entertaining 1-2 defeat - and the plane home on the Rio tarmac!
 

Yorkshire Blue

Super Moderator⭐
Staff member
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
36,631
Location
London
A defensive midfielders' best work doesn't show up in stats. When they do their job properly the opposition don't bother making that pass.

ps Where Jagielka had to clear off the line came from a ridiculous Gerrard hollywood special.
 

mrsblue

Banned
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
9,419
Rooney wasn't ineffective, I've not heard a single pundit say that. He didn't have a great game, and he did struggle with being out of position and supporting Baines - however he still set up 2 of our best 4 chances (the Sturridge goal and the one he missed). The other chance being the Sterling cross which Welbeck couldn't get to, and the Welbeck cross which bounced wide of the post.

So you want our defensive midfielders to commit fouls?! I want them to make tackles, blocks and interceptions and to not give the ball away. Neither Henderson or Gerrard are true defensive midfielders. Both are box to box players and more adept in attack than in defence.


http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszon...ayer-stats/1814/1_PASS_01#tabs-wrapper-anchor

That doesn't like like 'most of his passes were square 10 yarders':

He made 13 (out of 13) square passes, 9 (out of 10) long passes, 8 (out of 8) backwards passes, 41 (out of 46) forward passes, 53 (out of 57) short passes.

But don't let some stats get in the way of your sweeping statements.


My three positive and three negatives about the Italy game:

+ played with pace
+ passing was generally excellent
+ created some good chances

- wasteful set pieces
- ran out of steam
- left side too exposed.


Why on earth is England's best player and 5th highest scorer being played out wide and instructed to help out the full back,He will never score doing that donkey work.Roy got it wrong with his system IMO.

Gerrard despite those stats was IMO ineffective,He looked leggy after 25 minutes and he did not make many telling passes,Most professional holding midfielders will commit fouls or was the fact simply because the game passed him by?,We need far more than what he offered to get out of the group.
 

Pubey

Guest
Why on earth is England's best player and 5th highest scorer being played out wide and instructed to help out the full back,He will never score doing that donkey work.Roy got it wrong with his system IMO.

Gerrard despite those stats was IMO ineffective,He looked leggy after 25 minutes and he did not make many telling passes,Most professional holding midfielders will commit fouls or was the fact simply because the game passed him by?,We need far more than what he offered to get out of the group.

He didn't score even when inside the box.
 

Napster

The Horse with no Name⭐
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
35,624
Location
The wilds of Kent
Thought we played well - best performance by an England side for some time. Italy tactically were superb. They knew our weak points.
 

Pubey

Guest
Why on earth is England's best player and 5th highest scorer being played out wide and instructed to help out the full back,He will never score doing that donkey work.Roy got it wrong with his system IMO.

Gerrard despite those stats was IMO ineffective,He looked leggy after 25 minutes and he did not make many telling passes,Most professional holding midfielders will commit fouls or was the fact simply because the game passed him by?,We need far more than what he offered to get out of the group.

Gerrard didn't commit fouls because Italy expected Pirlo to pass the ball 30 yards between players, which he did. They also looked to attack us down the flank and they good good success at that.

Nigel De Jong, the definition of a combative defensive midfielder, against Spain, committed 1 foul.
 

mrsblue

Banned
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
9,419
He didn't score even when inside the box.


The replay proved the target between post and defender was non existent so if his shot had been goal bound the ball would have been blocked.
 

mrsblue

Banned
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
9,419
Gerrard didn't commit fouls because Italy expected Pirlo to pass the ball 30 yards between players, which he did. They also looked to attack us down the flank and they good good success at that.

Nigel De Jong, the definition of a combative defensive midfielder, against Spain, committed 1 foul.


De Jong watched him team concede 5 so maybe not the best comparison.

Pirlo aged 35 bossed the game for long periods because the midfield never got near to him.
 
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