Goodbye Piggy Eyes

[canveyshrimper]

Ricky Ponting has given up the captaincy of the convict cricket test & odi teams and will be succeeded by Michael Clarke. He remains as a player having been picked for the forthcoming tour for 3 odi's in Bangladesh. That in itself is a bit of a surprise as normally when an Aussie gives up or is sacked from the job, that's it as far as the team is concerned. I rather think this shows up the current paucity of convict cricket.

I was never a fan of Ponting apart from when he was giving us 3 Ashes series wins, but his test average in the high 50's puts him in with some of the greats of the game.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

I think history ought to be kind to Punter. At his peak, he was a totally devastating batsman - the one baggy green you dreaded seeing at the wicket, and whom you always wanted to see the back of. He had almost an aura of invincibility - something he has definitely lost now, and Jimmy had his number for most of the Ashes series.

I think too much is currently being made, and will be made, about the Ashes. Punter happened to be in charge at a time when the Australian conveyor-belt of talent broke down - that certainly isn't his fault.

Never liked him (in the way, say, that one could like Tubby Taylor) - but then I never really liked Waugh or Border. Doesn't stop him - or any of those mentioned - from being classed as a truly great cricketer, and certainly one of the top 10 batsmen of the last two decades. Where he fits in that pantheon - and, indeed, whether he's top 5 - is perhaps a matter for further debate... so, let's kick that debate off!

Here are my top 20 suggested candidates of the last 20 years; so let's whittle it down to a top 10, and then a top 5...

Lara
Tendulkar
Dravid
Ponting
S. Waugh
Kallis
Hayden
Yousuf
Sangakkara
Jayawardene
A. Flower
Laxman
Inzamam
KP
G. Smith
Chanderpaul
Samaraweera
Younis Khan
Gilchrist
Cook

(Quite weird to see Trott at second in the all-time averages for now. It would be nice if he can keep it up!)

 

[BLUEBLOOD]

Oh tricky but lets try ...

From that list my 5 would be

1) Sachin Tendulkar
2) Brian Lara
3) Ricky Ponting
4) Inzaman Ul Haq
5) Graeme Smith

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Oh tricky but lets try ...

From that list my 5 would be

You were allowed to shave it down to 10 first!

Happy with my 20? Any glaring omissions...?

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

I'm going to go for 10 first...

Lara
Tendulkar
Dravid
Ponting
S. Waugh
Kallis
A. Flower
Jayawardene
Yousuf
Hayden

(So, two of your top 5 don't even make my top 10! Inzy or Yousuf was a tough call - but for me, the latter was the grittier, more reliable batsman - and the stats back me up. As for Smith, he's just too darn miserable...!)

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Top 5...

1. Tendulkar
2. Lara
3. Ponting
4. S. Waugh
5. Kallis

Kallis v. Dravid is an horrendously tough call, but I've gone for Kallis, just. He's a phenomenon. Surprisingly easy to include Punter in my top 5, in fact - he really is that good.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Top three IMO are Lara, Ponting and Tendulkar.

The bottom half of your list is particularly ropey. I doubt Samaraweera - despite the average - would even get in my best 50 batsmen of that era - even just limiting it to Sri Lankan batsmen besides obviously Kumar Sangakkara and Mahela Jaywardene, I'd take Arivanda da Silva, Tillekeratne Dilshan, Hashan Tillekeratne, Arjuna Ranatunga over him for starters plus probably Sanath Jayasuriya and Marvellous Marvin Attapattu. He's only ever scored one hundred outside of Asia (in the West Indies) and averages 4.25 in England, 22.66 in Australia - even in India he only averages 24.12.

Similarly Cook's not in my top 5 English batsmen over that period - ahead of Gooch (who had the single best innings of the last 20 years)? Ahead of Vaughan ( dominant against Convicts but when they had a better bowling attack)? Ahead of Thorpe? At least not yet, anyway.

 

[canveyshrimper]

My 5 are:

1. Lara
2. S.Waugh
3. Tendulkar
4. Ponting
5. Kallis

Just realised the same 5 as MtS, albeit in a different order.
Steve Waugh makes second on the premise that if I wanted someone to bat for your life he'd get the job.

 

[undercovershrimper]

1st and sorry canvey shrimper not having a dig mate but, what you have done is basically listed the top 20 batsmen of the last 20 years, so i will be adding twenty bowlers in myself which is;

Warne
Muralitharan
Kumble
Harbhajan Singh
B Lee
McGrath
Flintoff
Gough
Harmison
Vettori
Shoaib Akhtar
Wasim Akram
Swann
Ambrose
Walsh
Mushtaq Ahmed
Donald
Pollock
Vaas
Waqar Younis

2nd let me just say thanks to Ricky for Batting first at Edgbaston in 2005, 407 all out from 78.2 overs on the first day, thanks very much mate set us up nicely,

Right then the top ten of mine from the last twenty years in no particular order

Ricky Ponting
Adam Gilchrist
Sachin Tendulkar (obviously)
Andy Flower (No1 test batsman in world at one point not bad for a Zimbabwean)
Brian Charles Lara
Shane Warne
Muttiah Murilitharan
Glenn McGrath
Jacques Kallis
Anil Kumble

and if i had to pick a team it would be

1. Gooch
2. Tendulkar
3. Ponting
4. Lara
5. Kallis
6. Flower (WK)
7. Gilchrist
8. Warne
9. Ambrose
10. Walsh
11. McGrath

and a top 5;

Lara
Tendulkar
Gilchrist
Warne
Muralitharan

 

[undercovershrimper]

and also should mention Jonty Rhodes and Paul Collingwood who have between them taken fielding to a whole new level

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

I think Clarke will go down in a similar manner to which Brown did following Blair. By all accounts he's been openly undermining Ponting for a while now; I think and hope he'll come a cropper. I hope Ponting lasts long enough for another series over here and a bit of redemption with the English crowd; love him or loathe him, he's been a giant of the game.

Anyway;-

1 - Tendulker
2 - Lara
3 - Ponting
4 - Kallis
5 - Waugh snr
6 - Dravid
7 - Thorpe
8 - Hayden
9 - Chanderpaul
10 - G.Smith

Although it sounds ridiculous, if Stuart Law had been from any other country I think he'd have scored bundles of test runs. Criminally under capped in my eyes.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Oh tricky but lets try ...

From that list my 5 would be

1) Sachin Tendulkar
2) Brian Lara
3) Ricky Ponting
4) Inzaman Ul Haq
5) Graeme Smith

:stunned:Would be interested in hearing the thinking behind Greg Smith. Wouldn't even make my top 20.

He's consistently come up short against the best teams. In 13 tests against Australia he averages 32.73, in 13 tests against India he averages 34.82, in 4 tests against Sri Lanka he averages 38.14.

He's never scored a hundred against McGrath, Murali, Bond, Akhtar, Warne, Gillespie, Vaas, Harbhajan, Zaheer Khan, Mohammed Amir, Kumble, MacGill (plus of course Steyn, Pollock and Ntini).

Even if flat-track bullies are your thing, I'd still go for Hayden (spit) or Sehwag first.

1st and sorry canvey shrimper not having a dig mate but, what you have done is basically listed the top 20 batsmen of the last 20 years, so i will be adding twenty bowlers in myself which is;

Warne
Muralitharan
Kumble
Harbhajan Singh
B Lee
McGrath
Flintoff
Gough
Harmison
Vettori
Shoaib Akhtar
Wasim Akram
Swann
Ambrose
Walsh
Mushtaq Ahmed
Donald
Pollock
Vaas
Waqar Younis

2nd let me just say thanks to Ricky for Batting first at Edgbaston in 2005, 407 all out from 78.2 overs on the first day, thanks very much mate set us up nicely,

Right then the top ten of mine from the last twenty years in no particular order

Ricky Ponting
Adam Gilchrist
Sachin Tendulkar (obviously)
Andy Flower (No1 test batsman in world at one point not bad for a Zimbabwean)
Brian Charles Lara
Shane Warne
Muttiah Murilitharan
Glenn McGrath
Jacques Kallis
Anil Kumble

and if i had to pick a team it would be

1. Gooch
2. Tendulkar
3. Ponting
4. Lara
5. Kallis
6. Flower (WK)
7. Gilchrist
8. Warne
9. Ambrose
10. Walsh
11. McGrath

and a top 5;

Lara
Tendulkar
Gilchrist
Warne
Muralitharan

I'd have thought your XI would include more of your top 10.

I also struggle to see Swann and Vettori as amongst the best 20 bowlers of the last 20 years.

My top 10 (in approximate order)

Ambrose
McGrath
Murali
Steyn
Bond
Waqar
Akhtar
Donald
Pollock
Akram

I think Clarke will go down in a similar manner to which Brown did following Blair. By all accounts he's been openly undermining Ponting for a while now; I think and hope he'll come a cropper. I hope Ponting lasts long enough for another series over here and a bit of redemption with the English crowd; love him or loathe him, he's been a giant of the game.

Anyway;-

1 - Tendulker
2 - Lara
3 - Ponting
4 - Kallis
5 - Waugh snr
6 - Dravid
7 - Thorpe
8 - Hayden
9 - Chanderpaul
10 - G.Smith

Although it sounds ridiculous, if Stuart Law had been from any other country I think he'd have scored bundles of test runs. Criminally under capped in my eyes.

The thing about Law is he wasn't actually criminally under capped even though he'd have almost certainly averaged 50. Who would you have dropped out of Hayden, Langer, Ponting, M. Waugh, S. Waugh and Martyn? And even if you dropped one of them there would have been an argument for Darren Lehmann (or Mike Hussey or countless other batsman). He was just unlucky to be around at a golden age for Australian batting.

 

[BrettieAngell]

Well its not really goodbye cos he's still going be playing for them! Can't stand the bloke but you have to take your hat off to him for his Batting, I guess he was lucky to be captain at a time when they were the best team in the world.

 

[canveyshrimper]

:The thing about Law is he wasn't actually criminally under capped even though he'd have almost certainly averaged 50. Who would you have dropped out of Hayden, Langer, Ponting, M. Waugh, S. Waugh and Martyn? And even if you dropped one of them there would have been an argument for Darren Lehmann (or Mike Hussey or countless other batsman). He was just unlucky to be around at a golden age for Australian batting.

Agree with that, and add Martin Love who I believe scored a test match 200. Law actually only played 1 Test and scored IIRC 54* against Sri Lanka.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Oh yeah, and Kumar Sangakkara deserves a bit more respect.

Over the last five years, when not burdened with the gloves he averages 80.08 - including a century and an average of at least 59.80 against every test side (except Zimbabwe - who he hasn't played against to pad out his average).

He's got a double hundred against Steyn, a 156* out of 268 against Bond (only two other players got double figures), three consecutive centuries against Zaheer and Harbhajan, a quite brilliant 192 in Australia (albeit only against Mitchell Johnson and Brett Lee), a match saving 130* against Amir, Gul, Ajmal and Kaneria.

One of the few thing missing from his CV is a century in England, which I fully expect him to correct this summer when he tours here for the first time in 5 years.

 

[southend4ever]

Right, can someone update me on this thread please...

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Agree with that, and add Martin Love who I believe scored a test match 200. Law actually only played 1 Test and scored IIRC 54* against Sri Lanka.

Don't think he did. IIRC he made 200 v Eng for Australia A or the President's XI then the following week got another double when England played his state (Western Australia?) in another tour game and got called up later that Convict summer on the back of that.

Right, can someone update me on this thread please...

George W Bush has stepped down as Australian captain. He's still going to play for them. He was quite good.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Top three IMO are Lara, Ponting and Tendulkar.

The bottom half of your list is particularly ropey. I doubt Samaraweera - despite the average - would even get in my best 50 batsmen of that era

Can't say I disagree. He only got in because of the average; but your stats for his overseas tours is very revealing.

- even just limiting it to Sri Lankan batsmen besides obviously Kumar Sangakkara and Mahela Jaywardene, I'd take Arivanda da Silva, Tillekeratne Dilshan, Hashan Tillekeratne, Arjuna Ranatunga over him for starters plus probably Sanath Jayasuriya and Marvellous Marvin Attapattu.

Other than "death by Attapattu" (ie boredom), I wouldn't disagree with you there.

Similarly Cook's not in my top 5 English batsmen over that period - ahead of Gooch (who had the single best innings of the last 20 years)? Ahead of Vaughan ( dominant against Convicts but when they had a better bowling attack)? Ahead of Thorpe? At least not yet, anyway.

In my head, Goochie belongs to a slightly earlier era than "the last 20 years" (although your point is obviously entirely valid). Maybe I was really looking at the last 15 years - during which time, the English candidates are:

Vaughan
Trescothick
Thorpe
KP
Strauss
Cook
Atherton
Stewart

Does Cook make a top 5 out of that lot...? Perhaps not yet; but if he can keep up his Ashes form this summer, then he may well be in there.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

1st and sorry canvey shrimper not having a dig mate but, what you have done is basically listed the top 20 batsmen of the last 20 years,

Err, it wasn't Harry - it was me! And, given that it was Ponting (a batsman) who has retired, you're absoloutely right that I only posted a list of batsmen. I was discussing where Ponting fits in the pantheon of great batsmen (as opposed to great cricketers) of the last 15-20 years.

Matt

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Oh yeah, and Kumar Sangakkara deserves a bit more respect.

Over the last five years, when not burdened with the gloves he averages 80.08 - including a century and an average of at least 59.80 against every test side (except Zimbabwe - who he hasn't played against to pad out his average).

He's got a double hundred against Steyn, a 156* out of 268 against Bond (only two other players got double figures), three consecutive centuries against Zaheer and Harbhajan, a quite brilliant 192 in Australia (albeit only against Mitchell Johnson and Brett Lee), a match saving 130* against Amir, Gul, Ajmal and Kaneria.

One of the few thing missing from his CV is a century in England, which I fully expect him to correct this summer when he tours here for the first time in 5 years.

Seconded - he's a phenomenal batsman; by a mile the best wicket-keeper batsman playing at the moment. Not sure how you compare him to Gilchrist, in that Gilly's real forte was his ability to come in down the order and put his foot on the accelerator like no other, before or since. But he and Gilly stand head-and-shoulders above other wicketkeeper-batsmen of our time (although Prior ain't bad, and nor was Stewart).

Really, the only thing missing from Sangakkara's CV (and perhaps the reason he's under-appreciated here) is a big score in England, which I have no doubt he will get this summer.

Matt